Trading and broker skill

DanHeidel

Mongoose
Quick question about the speculative trading rules: According to the rules, the purchase price is determined by 3D + the PC Broker skill - the NPC Broker skill + the various planetary buy and sell bonuses. I'm assuming that the Broker skill values are just the base Broker skill for the two characters with no attribute DM applied, correct?

The reason I ask is that this Traveller trading utility page (travellertools.azurewebsites.net) has you enter "Broker Skill (Int)" which seems to imply that you should add the INT/EDU/SOC/CHA/etc attribute bonus from both traders as well. Is this website just wrong about this or am I reading the trade rules incorrectly?

I'd like to get some feedback on this. On one hand, it could be argued that it's fair to add attribute bonuses since you're adding the attribute DM bonus to both sides of the trading equation. On the other hand, that does have the potential of having a larger delta between the two traders if the PC and/or NPC Broker has a particularly high or low applicable attribute bonus) Presumably most NPC Brokers will have Broker 2 and a +1 relevant attribute bonus for a total bonus of +3 - anyone that's better than that is going to be working at a megacorp or running their own trading company, not doing brokerage at some crappy, little downport somewhere. A PC is likely going to have Broker 1-3 and +1 or +2 in a relevant skill, so could have a total trading bonus of +2 to +5. I'm guessing that you probably don't want to let that happen since a high PC total Broker score really starts to mess up game balance.

I ran several simulated trading runs with a PC crew doing mostly J-2 hops in a scout ship and 50K of starting cash from Flammarion over by the Sword Worlds to near the Islands sector Great Rift crossing with different Broker bonus values to get a feel for how their finances would fare. (Combat repairs from pirates attacks, etc, weren't factored in but these were mostly well travelled trade routes, so pirate attacks should be minimal) I assumed a consistent average NPC broker bonus of +3, I got the following results: With a PC bonus of +3, the PCs were constantly on the edge of financial ruin with fuel, maintenence, docking fees, etc. It was nearly impossible for them to get ahead without double-bunking and taking on the occasional passenger or two or taking on the occasional hair-brained sidequest I dangle in front of them. I feel that this is how Traveller is designed to operate to encourage PCs to, you know, adventure. If the PC Broker had a +4 total Broker bonus, they were able to steadly make a modest cash flow and after 6 months, I think they had close to a million credits which could easily be eaten up by ship upgrades, repairs or other costs so it wasn't too overpowered IMO. When the PC Trader had a toal Broker bonus of +5 (so an INT of 12 and Broker 3, for example), they made more money than god. Two separate 6 month runs each had them with tens of millions of credits and they would have been able to outright buy a Free Trader by the end of the year at the rate they were getting money.

By that argument, I think that my initial reading that it's just the Broker score with no attribute bonuses is probably correct but wanted to get opinions from other folks.
 
If you are making a roll with Broker as a modifier, then it is just Broker skill value. If you are making a Broker Task check, then the stat applies. I'm not familiar with that website, but it appears to be incorrect from what you describe.
 
DETERMINE PURCHASE PRICE
To determine the purchase price, roll 3D and apply the
following modifiers:
+The Traveller’s Broker skill (or the local broker’s skill)
+any DM from the Purchase DM column
–any DM from the Sale DM column
–the supplier’s Broker skill (this is assumed to be
Broker 2, but may vary)
In cases where multiple Purchase or Sale DMs apply,
use only the largest from each column.


This is not a skill check. It is a commodity roll that uses the broker skills of the two parties as DMs.

Also, there is an excel spreadsheet that I started and others finished that could help to automate the process for you:
Trade speadsheet.

The last download will be the current version. Terry Mixon worked on that one.
 
Thanks, that's what I was suspecting.

The site is actually really nice as it draws data from the travellermap.com API and handles all the busy work of randomly calculating the docking fees, buy/sell prices and so on at each world and showing a map of other worlds in jump distance so trading has a lot less busy work. It even gives you travel time from the surface/low orbit to the 100 diameter distance for each world. I checked the math in their code on Github for several different equations and it all seemed to check out. The labelling of that broker skill dropdown is wrong then.

For reference for anyone that uses that site, don't enter the PC Broker skill into the dropdown - that will give you trading results that are far too good. From my reading of the code, it's expecting the difference between the PC and NPC Broker skills there. So if the PC has a Broker 2 and you're assuming the default NPC with Broker 2, enter 0 into that dropdown. That seemed to give pretty realistic trading profits.
 
DETERMINE PURCHASE PRICE
To determine the purchase price, roll 3D and apply the
following modifiers:
+The Traveller’s Broker skill (or the local broker’s skill)
+any DM from the Purchase DM column
–any DM from the Sale DM column
–the supplier’s Broker skill (this is assumed to be
Broker 2, but may vary)
In cases where multiple Purchase or Sale DMs apply,
use only the largest from each column.


This is not a skill check. It is a commodity roll that uses the broker skills of the two parties as DMs.

Also, there is an excel spreadsheet that I started and others finished that could help to automate the process for you:
Trade speadsheet.

The last download will be the current version. Terry Mixon worked on that one.
An expert program does give you a +1. At least I think it does.
 
Also, there is an excel spreadsheet that I started and others finished that could help to automate the process for you:

The last download will be the current version. Terry Mixon worked on that one.

Did one of you also work on that insane shipbuilder spreadsheet? The formatting looks similar. If so, my thanks, that thing has been incredibly useful. The Trading sheet looks really good so far.
An expert program does give you a +1.
I would not have expected that. Is there a place in the rules that establishes what expert program bonuses apply to?
 
I would not have expected that. Is there a place in the rules that establishes what expert program bonuses apply to?
I added an uncertainty to my post right before you quoted it. I'm not sure. I just heard it here somewhere. Broker is an odd beast, so maybe not.
 
Can't check the books to be sure right now but Expert programs give benefit to INT & EDU based skill checks, not a Commodities roll or price check roll, so... no bonus?
 
Did one of you also work on that insane shipbuilder spreadsheet? The formatting looks similar. If so, my thanks, that thing has been incredibly useful. The Trading sheet looks really good so far.
Guilty.
I opened the trade sheet up to the community because people wanted to use other sectors than Spinward Marches, and I was having trouble getting that to work.
Once they figured out how to use the Traveller map, I was afraid to touch it, in case I screwed that part up, Terry was the last one to update it.
 
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I'ma gonna guess no on the Expert program bonus as well. Beyond the rationale given in the other posts, it would be insane to trade without it. Given just how huge of a difference even a couple points of delta on the Broker skill gives to serial speculative trading, an expert program could be worth millions a year in revenue.

Honestly, I do wish that things like attribute bonuses and expert programs could be included in the rolls. It would add to the flavor of trading, IMO. Having a PC with a low broker score but who is really charismatic would be a nice touch. It would require refactoring that big 'Modified Price' trading table so that the effect of the Broker delta would be smaller so that players can't become overnight millionaires.

The more I think about it, the more I like that idea. For example, a typical NPC broker would have that +3 total bonus and would definitely have at least an expert program +1 helping them. A PC with a Broker 0 using an expert program Broker at 1 or 2 would still be at a disadvantage, assuming an attribute bonus of +1. You'd be able to break even with expert 3 but those are really expensive and from a play balance perspective it makes sense that a poor negotiator would be able to at least break even with a typical mid-tier broker if they had top of the line boosts helping them. (assuming a Broker 0 trading character. I have issues with now skill 0 interacts with expert programs, but that's a whole other discussion)

Off the top of my head, you'd want to allow a bigger impact from the planetary bonuses/penalties. The obvious place to start would be to allow the modifiers from a planet to stack instead of just picking the largest. (e.g.: if buying Advance Electronics from an Industrial, High Tech world, your buy bonus would be +5, not the current +3) I like that since it allows a lot more swing in the planet buying bonuses.

One thing that I found with my test trading runs was that if you had a Broker delta of +2 or higher (and even at +1 to an extent), you just could completely ignore the planetary bonuses and fly around buying and selling whatever and wherever you wanted. At any given planet, you'd almost be guaranteed that there would be at least one good that would be randomly selling or buying anomalously high or low. You just cherry pick those deals and you're guaranteed to come out ahead. I would buy radioactives on farming worlds at 70% list price and sell them on asteroids for 110% and make millions. Yes, that's probably the worst possible combo of worlds but when there's a dozen things for sale on each world, those sorts of crazy deals regularly pop up. Having larger bonuses will nerf the impact of that 3D roll so Broker skill and planetary bonuses have a greater impact.
I like that better than the current system. My test runs really started to feel bland. I didn't have to pay any attention to planet trade codes. The randomness of the system just seemed to completely wash them away. Increasing the impact of the planet codes means that you really do have to carefully plan where you buy and sell goods. Having the attribute and expert program bonuses impact the trades lets you have non-typical trader characters (and not just who has a bunch of levels of Broker) be viable as well as bringing expert programs into play and as Geir pointed out, hacking an opposing trade expert program would suddenly become a viable tactic. It just feels like this would give a much richer trading experience than the one that currently exists.

I would have to think about how to modify the 'Modified Price' table. I don't think a global divide by 2 on the purchase/sell adjusters would be the best option. I think that tweaking the non-linearity of the scale is worth investigating. Right now, the table is pretty linear in the mid range but then sort of exponentially shoots away at high and low values - which I think isn't great. I don't care if you're the reincarnation of PT Barnum, no broker is buying a commodity good from you at 400% of the list price unless it's a war zone or something. I think that the center of the table (at low deltas) should be pretty flat. Then it should get a little swingy once the modified roll is in the high and low mid-range and then flatten off again as you get out to the edges of the chart. I'll need to ponder that a bit and maybe try some more mock trading runs to see how well my ideas work.

Regardless, now that I think about it, changing the trade system to include attribute bonuses and to stack planetary bonuses would probably lead to a much more interesting trade system that gives more reward to strategic thinking and careful planning.
 
I'ma gonna guess no on the Expert program bonus as well. Beyond the rationale given in the other posts, it would be insane to trade without it. Given just how huge of a difference even a couple points of delta on the Broker skill gives to serial speculative trading, an expert program could be worth millions a year in revenue.

Honestly, I do wish that things like attribute bonuses and expert programs could be included in the rolls. It would add to the flavor of trading, IMO. Having a PC with a low broker score but who is really charismatic would be a nice touch. It would require refactoring that big 'Modified Price' trading table so that the effect of the Broker delta would be smaller so that players can't become overnight millionaires.

The more I think about it, the more I like that idea. For example, a typical NPC broker would have that +3 total bonus and would definitely have at least an expert program +1 helping them. A PC with a Broker 0 using an expert program Broker at 1 or 2 would still be at a disadvantage, assuming an attribute bonus of +1. You'd be able to break even with expert 3 but those are really expensive and from a play balance perspective it makes sense that a poor negotiator would be able to at least break even with a typical mid-tier broker if they had top of the line boosts helping them. (assuming a Broker 0 trading character. I have issues with now skill 0 interacts with expert programs, but that's a whole other discussion)

Off the top of my head, you'd want to allow a bigger impact from the planetary bonuses/penalties. The obvious place to start would be to allow the modifiers from a planet to stack instead of just picking the largest. (e.g.: if buying Advance Electronics from an Industrial, High Tech world, your buy bonus would be +5, not the current +3) I like that since it allows a lot more swing in the planet buying bonuses.

One thing that I found with my test trading runs was that if you had a Broker delta of +2 or higher (and even at +1 to an extent), you just could completely ignore the planetary bonuses and fly around buying and selling whatever and wherever you wanted. At any given planet, you'd almost be guaranteed that there would be at least one good that would randomly be selling or buying anomalously high or low. You just cheery pick those deals and you're guaranteed to come out ahead. I would buy radioactives on farming worlds at 70% list price and sell them on asteroids for 110% and make millions. Yes, that's probably the worst possible combo of worlds but when there's a dozen things for sale on each world, those sorts of crazy deals regularly pop up. Having larger bonuses will nerf the impact of that 3D roll so Broker skill and planetary bonuses have a greater impact.
I like that better than the current system. My test runs really started to feel bland. I didn't have to pay any attention to planet trade codes. The randomness of the system just seemed to completely wash them away. Increasing the impact of the planet codes means that you really do have to carefully plan where you buy and sell goods. Having the attribute and expert program bonuses impact the trades lets you have non-typical trader characters (and not just who has a bunch of levels of Broker) be viable as well as bringing expert programs into play and as Geir pointed out, hacking an opposing trade expert program would suddenly become a viable tactic. It just feels like this would give a much richer trading experience than the one that currently exists.

I would have to think about how to modify the 'Modified Price' table. I don't think a global divide by 2 on the purchase/sell adjusters would be the best option. I think that tweaking the non-linearity of the scale is worth investigating. Right now, the table is pretty linear in the mid range but then sort of exponentially shoots away at high and low values - which I think isn't great. I don't care if you're the reincarnation of PT Barnum, no broker is buying a commodity good from you at 400% of the list price unless it's a war zone or something. I think that the center of the table (at low deltas) should be pretty flat. Then it should get a little swingy once the modified roll is in the high and low mid-range and then flatten off again as you get out to the edges of the chart. I'll need to ponder that a bit and maybe try some more mock trading runs to see how well my ideas work.

Regardless, now that I think about it, changing the trade system to include attribute bonuses and to stack planetary bonuses would probably lead to a much more interesting trade system that gives more reward to strategic thinking and careful planning.
I hope they consider that when the eventual core rules update rolls around. Frankly, I hope they solicit our opinions on what needs to change.
 
I would guess no, because it is not a Check, but a DM to a Price roll - and it saves the trouble of putting a virus on the other broker's computer to disrupt the competing Expert program...
But what about the Expert program providing a skill. If it can give a skill level for a unskilled user on the modified prices table then why cannot it provide its bonus to the skill level of someone with the Broker skill.

I think this is an overly proscriptive reading of the words and expert programs should provide the Skill (or enhance the skill of an already skilled user). Skill checks the most usual use of a skill level, but not necessarily the only time it is used skill.

If this doesn't work there are significant implications for robots that gain skills from expert systems (especially those that rely on intelligence modifiers). Broker Bot I am looking at you!

The Modified Price table should really be using the effect of a skill check to make it consistent with the other tables in that section (amount of cargo and passengers).

Under previous editions the Modified Price was a function of a normal skill check plus modifiers (basically it allowed a specific percentage for a graduated scale of effect). I don't think the MGT2 implementation is an improvement frankly (despite the greater range of possible values).

It should also be noted that in the skills chapter under Broker it says that negotiating a deal IS a skill check, so I think we have an editing error here.
 
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But what about the Expert program providing a skill. If it can give a skill level for a unskilled user on the modified prices table then why cannot it provide its bonus to the skill level of someone with the Broker skill.
Because if a cheap program provides a +1 to the player, the NPC broker is sure as heck also using it. So it's a wash.
 
Because if a cheap program provides a +1 to the player, the NPC broker is sure as heck also using it. So it's a wash.
Only if is available at their tech level, and they are a skilled trader (rather than a farmer selling his crops direct) or the player doesn't have an expert package for some reason or many other scenarios where a hidden assumption will trip you up.

But yes if available they will certainly use one. Maybe that is why the default skill is assumed to be 2. Level 1 Broker (professional with experience) +1 for expert system.
 
But what about the Expert program providing a skill. If it can give a skill level for a unskilled user on the modified prices table then why cannot it provide its bonus to the skill level of someone with the Broker skill.

I think this is an overly proscriptive reading of the words and expert programs should provide the Skill (or enhance the skill of an already skilled user). Skill checks the most usual use of a skill level, but not necessarily the only time it is used skill.

If this doesn't work there are significant implications for robots that gain skills from expert systems (especially those that rely on intelligence modifiers). Broker Bot I am looking at you!

The Modified Price table should really be using the effect of a skill check to make it consistent with the other tables in that section (amount of cargo and passengers).

Under previous editions the Modified Price was a function of a normal skill check plus modifiers (basically it allowed a specific percentage for a graduated scale of effect). I don't think the MGT2 implementation is an improvement frankly (despite the greater range of possible values).

It should also be noted that in the skills chapter under Broker it says that negotiating a deal IS a skill check, so I think we have an editing error here.
I like your thinking on this.
 
Considering the current trajectory, what you'll end up with are a lot of bots, figuring out the way to maximize profit is to trade the same item to each other, and adding their margins at each transaction.
 
Because if a cheap program provides a +1 to the player, the NPC broker is sure as heck also using it. So it's a wash.
Within the Imperium, sure. On high tech worlds outside of a major polity, sure. On that TL-5 world out in the wilderness where you buy your shipload of Precious Metals for what is effectively glass beads, they are not likely to have Expert Software, perhaps explaining why a shipload of cargo can be purchased so cheaply.
 
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