Hot Rodding is dead?

[Arkathan]

You can't touch the power plant, drives, launch facilities or spinal mounts on a minor refit.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It’s still a refit because you’re replacing the existing drive with a new one. And I stand by my statement the refit section can legitimately be read as you can only increase the size of a drive or power plant on a major refit and you can’t on a minor. Among other things it just makes common sense on a major refit your changing structural components while on a minor you not. If you can’t increase the drive or power plant in a major refit why can you increase the size of a Spinal mount or add more fighter those are even more of a structural change than increasing the size of a drive room or power plant. You’re telling me you think you can increase or decrease the spine of the ship but you can’t increase the size of the power room? Think about that when you read those TWO PARAGRAPHS.

This is not complicated.

"There are two different types of refit that can be used. Major refits cover changes in power plant, manoeuvre or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes). Removing these components costs 0.5 times the cost of the original system, while removing them and then installing new ones costs 1.5 times the cost of the new system. The time this takes is one quarter of the time required to build a new ship of the same size as described in Construction Times on page 8.

Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms. Removing these components costs 0.1 times the cost of the original system, while removing them and installing new ones costs 1.1 times the cost of the new system. This takes one tenth of the time required to build a new ship of the same size. Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit. Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced. Other components can be increased in size if there is tonnage available. If several systems or components are being removed or replaced in a single refit, all replacements are made simultaneously; therefore, it only takes the time required for the longest job to be completed

Items bolded go together.

Items in italics go together.

 

[Condottiere]

Nixing the size increase tends to solve the issue of trying to cram something large into something smaller, since you'd have to move around other components to make space.

 

[Sigtrygg]

It makes perfect sense.

You can not make structural changes to armour or configuration.
You can refit engines on a major refit, but you can not make the engines bigger only smaller, although I find this a bit odd since you should be able to downsize the maneuver drive say to increase the jump drive so long as the overall drive volume does not change.Moving up the TL scale you can build drives with the reduced size option to fit more powerful drives in the same volume.


A minor refit is just moving around interior walls to change staterooms, cargo areas etc still limited by available volume... i.e. increase staterooms but reduce cargo that sort of thing.

Once again here is the passage.

"There are two different types of refit that can be used. Major refits cover changes in power plant, manoeuvre
or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes)...<snip of unnecessary costs etc>

Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms...<snip of unnecessary costs etc>
Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be
changed under any refit.*
Those items covered under a major refit** cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced.
Other components*** can be increased in size if there is tonnage available."

*So we know what components can not be changed at all
** we know what can be changed by a major refit, namely power plant, manoeuvre, jump drive, spinal mounts, and launch facilities,
and that they can not be increased in size.
*** obviously then refers to items covered by the minor refit

If I were the editor I would have moved the sentences around a bit to avoid any confusion at all but the section makes sense when you read it in toto.

 

[tytalan]

Common sense and the way the rule actually reads
Major Refit: allows structure changes allowing drive room and other major areas of the ship to be changed ie adding extra launch tubs and larger drives

Minor Refit: doesn’t allow structure changes limiting changes to drives and power plant to a system that will fit in the existing rooms

That’s how it’s meant to be read otherwise there’s no reason to have two different classes of refit with your restrictions, you would only need an added cost for changing those systems. But the extra cost for a major refit is because you have to change the structure of the ship.

 

[Condottiere]

What's not mentioned is the dimensional configuration of the component.

You can squeeze in fuel tanks anywhere.

A jump drive might require a specific configuration, in which the rest of the engine room has been designed around.

 

[Arkathan]

I do not think any of us who have been responding like or agree with the prohibition on installing larger engines, power plants and spinal mounts, or enlarging launch facilities.
But the rule is actually clear that you cannot increase the size of any of those.

An HG update is still a couple of years out - I think that's what Matt said...
The only solution at present is to house rule that prohibition out of existence and use the current refit rules to provide a baseline for cost and time, adjusted by shipyard TL.
Or count it as new construction.

My suggestion on that is refit the old stuff off, and new construct the larger stuff on, adding the refit cost and using new construction time.

 

[Ol'Weedy]

Clearly the moral of all this, is that when you design a ship, be sure to apply the size increase disadvantage to both M & J drives (making both cheaper!), and make sure your power plant is at least twice the size of what you need.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Common sense and the way the rule actually reads
Major Refit: allows structure changes allowing drive room and other major areas of the ship to be changed ie adding extra launch tubs and larger drives

That's not what the rules say, the rules do not mention structural changes in major refits, they only mention replacing drives, spinal mounts, and launch facilities with similar items that may be the same size or smaller. The only place structure is mentioned is to prevent changes to armour, configuration or reinforced structure.

Minor Refit: doesn’t allow structure changes limiting changes to drives and power plant to a system that will fit in the existing rooms

No, the ruels specifically say that minor refits exclude the items covered by major refits
"Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship" i.e. components not covered by the major refit rule

The major refit rules states what components use the major refit rule, the minor refit rule applies to other components not covered by the major refit rule, and als clarifies that certain changes may not be made at all under refit rules.

That’s how it’s meant to be read otherwise there’s no reason to have two different classes of refit with your restrictions, you would only need an added cost for changing those systems. But the extra cost for a major refit is because you have to change the structure of the ship.

That's how you choose to interpret it, despite evidence to the contrary.
Major refit - engines, spinal, launch facilites... componetnts may be reduced in size but not increased
Minor refit - staterooms, common ares, cargo etc may have the total space allocated as you like, so staterooms may increase, requiring less cargo, cargo could increase, requiring stateroom removal etc.

A major refit does not change the structure of the ship, the word structure is nowhere to be seen in relation to major or minor refits.

Once again, but this time the way I would have edited it, the sentences remain the same and therefore there is no change in meaning, with my commentary in <>

" Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit."

" Major refits cover changes in power plant, manoeuvre or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes)."
" Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced."

" Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms." <other components i.e. not drives etc covered by major refit>
" Other components can be increased in size if there is tonnage available."<available tonnage made by reducing major refit components or changing cargo, fuel , staterooms etc>

 

[Sigtrygg]

Clearly the moral of all this, is that when you design a ship, be sure to apply the size increase disadvantage to both M & J drives (making both cheaper!), and make sure your power plant is at least twice the size of what you need.

Depends on how you intend to upgrade your ride. And I still think it should be the total volume of the drives so you do have a little wiggle room.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Depends on how you intend to upgrade your ride. And I still think it should be the total volume of the drives so you do have a little wiggle room.

Rebuild rules needs to be added. Then you can do stuff like add armor, increase the overall tonnage of the ship, add larger drives, add a spinal mount or launch bays, etc. This way none of the refit rules are violated but you can change your ships into hot rods.

 

[Condottiere]

Generally speaking, you figure out the performance you're likely to need, over a specific time period, and then buy the best components you can afford (to mortgage).

Like you should with computers.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Generally speaking, you figure out the performance you're likely to need, over a specific time period, and then buy the best components you can afford (to mortgage).

Like you should with computers.

Needs change over time.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I disagree, the rule is not clear that you can’t and in fact I would say just the opposite especially since there are examples that show you can. We don’t need rebuild rules we just need better wording.

Traveller authors almost always violate the rules when designing ships for products. It is one of the things I dislike. Dislike ALOT! So that cannot really be used as a basis for argument, even though I would like it to be. I like consistency. I like rules that aren't contradictory with the story or the setting.

In this particular case, you are the only one who reads the rules and believes as you do. At your table, this is not an issue. Run it however you want, obviously. As far as RAW, without the actual author chiming in, it would seem that we have a consensus.

 

[Condottiere]

If there is a (canonical) exception to the rules, it should be explained.

 

[Arkathan]

Traveller authors almost always violate the rules when designing ships for products. It is one of the things I dislike. Dislike ALOT! So that cannot really be used as a basis for argument, even though I would like it to be. I like consistency. I like rules that aren't contradictory with the story or the setting.

In this particular case, you are the only one who reads the rules and believes as you do. At your table, this is not an issue. Run it however you want, obviously. As far as RAW, without the actual author chiming in, it would seem that we have a consensus.

The only way the "refit" designs (far trader, et.al.) work is as new construction. Using the same hull blueprint but building it for a different internal loadout from scratch.

 

[Condottiere]

“Components may also be replaced in order to upgrade or downgrade a ship’s capabilities.” According to you this is not true since drive speeds and jump are capabilities can’t be changed. Also an elemental class cruiser can never add a carrier pod since that is considered a refit and you can’t according to you increase that. And they specifically say it’s a refit not a rebuild to change pods.

That would depend on aspects that have not been mentioned, in regard to podular construction.

It's quite possible that you could install one or more appropriately sized launch tubes in a pod.

 

[Ol'Weedy]

Depends on how you intend to upgrade your ride. And I still think it should be the total volume of the drives so you do have a little wiggle room.

That's the idea I was going for... Increase everything in the engineering section.
In my own games, I rule zeroed the restriction out of existence, provided the refit made sense within the existing deck plans.
Then I discovered that they altered the internal bulkheads on the Type-S when they converted to a seeker. Apparently they did it to make the engine room more spacious, and they just didn't need that ship's locker anymore...¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Sigtrygg]

Again you’re changing the actual paragraph. The paragraph talks about what is changeable under a minor refit and that should be one of the primary factors when reading the paragraph. So they way the paragraph reads is you can not increase the size of the items in a major refit if your only doing a minor refit.

No, you are reading it incorrectly. Just read each sentence, it all makes perfect sense.
As to changing the paragraph, I have posted the actual paragraph and a reedited version for clarity, the words have not changed. The fact remains for some reason you are misunderstanding what others can understand clearly.

No where does it say you can’t increase the size of Engines, or other components in a major refit.

It says that minor refits can only be done on other systems, meaning systems other than the ones covered by the major refit. it really is that simple.

Why are all of you ignoring the context of the paragraph, there are reasons thing are group in paragraphs. Reading it the way you do here the rules

The context is clear, your misunderstanding isn't.

“Components may also be replaced in order to upgrade or downgrade a ship’s capabilities.” According to you this is not true since drive speeds and jump are capabilities can’t be changed.

You are making claims I have not made. You can install items of higher TL that have the reduced size advantage, or replace a TL12 power plant with a TL15 power plant. Increased capability in the same size.

Also an elemental class cruiser can never add a carrier pod since that is considered a refit and you can’t according to you increase that. And they specifically say it’s a refit not a rebuild to change pods.

The element class cruisers were designed by an author reknowned for making up new rules and not using the ruels as written. There are no rules anywhere in MgT 1e or 2e for what the author has introduced in element class cruisers.

The core of the problem is all of you are ignoring syntax and content in order to support what you want instead of reading it how it is written.

No, the syntax is clear, the sentences are clear. What is written is clear, the clause of each sentence is clear, the logic is clear and there is nothing contradictory. What is happening is you have misunderstood and are now convincing yourself you are correct.

Have you noticed that no one from mongoose has spoken to support your interpretation. And it is an interpretation.

Have you noticed no one from mongoose has spoken to support your interpretation. Your interpretation is incorrect as per the rules as written.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

“Components may also be replaced in order to upgrade or downgrade a ship’s capabilities.” According to you this is not true since drive speeds and jump are capabilities can’t be changed.

Of course they can:

Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced.

Reducing their size is a change.

Also an elemental class cruiser can never add a carrier pod since that is considered a refit and you can’t according to you increase that. And they specifically say it’s a refit not a rebuild to change pods.

You are using the wrong edition...

The Element class cruiser was published under HG'16 rules, not HG'22. The refit rule was absent from HG'16.

In HG'22 the Element class "pods" were recast as modules, much like cutter modules, see HG'22, p242.