This is not complicated.It’s still a refit because you’re replacing the existing drive with a new one. And I stand by my statement the refit section can legitimately be read as you can only increase the size of a drive or power plant on a major refit and you can’t on a minor. Among other things it just makes common sense on a major refit your changing structural components while on a minor you not. If you can’t increase the drive or power plant in a major refit why can you increase the size of a Spinal mount or add more fighter those are even more of a structural change than increasing the size of a drive room or power plant. You’re telling me you think you can increase or decrease the spine of the ship but you can’t increase the size of the power room? Think about that when you read those TWO PARAGRAPHS.
That's not what the rules say, the rules do not mention structural changes in major refits, they only mention replacing drives, spinal mounts, and launch facilities with similar items that may be the same size or smaller. The only place structure is mentioned is to prevent changes to armour, configuration or reinforced structure.Common sense and the way the rule actually reads
Major Refit: allows structure changes allowing drive room and other major areas of the ship to be changed ie adding extra launch tubs and larger drives
No, the ruels specifically say that minor refits exclude the items covered by major refitsMinor Refit: doesn’t allow structure changes limiting changes to drives and power plant to a system that will fit in the existing rooms
That's how you choose to interpret it, despite evidence to the contrary.That’s how it’s meant to be read otherwise there’s no reason to have two different classes of refit with your restrictions, you would only need an added cost for changing those systems. But the extra cost for a major refit is because you have to change the structure of the ship.
Depends on how you intend to upgrade your ride. And I still think it should be the total volume of the drives so you do have a little wiggle room.Clearly the moral of all this, is that when you design a ship, be sure to apply the size increase disadvantage to both M & J drives (making both cheaper!), and make sure your power plant is at least twice the size of what you need.![]()
Rebuild rules needs to be added. Then you can do stuff like add armor, increase the overall tonnage of the ship, add larger drives, add a spinal mount or launch bays, etc. This way none of the refit rules are violated but you can change your ships into hot rods.Depends on how you intend to upgrade your ride. And I still think it should be the total volume of the drives so you do have a little wiggle room.
Needs change over time.Generally speaking, you figure out the performance you're likely to need, over a specific time period, and then buy the best components you can afford (to mortgage).
Like you should with computers.
Traveller authors almost always violate the rules when designing ships for products. It is one of the things I dislike. Dislike ALOT! So that cannot really be used as a basis for argument, even though I would like it to be. I like consistency. I like rules that aren't contradictory with the story or the setting.I disagree, the rule is not clear that you can’t and in fact I would say just the opposite especially since there are examples that show you can. We don’t need rebuild rules we just need better wording.
The only way the "refit" designs (far trader, et.al.) work is as new construction. Using the same hull blueprint but building it for a different internal loadout from scratch.Traveller authors almost always violate the rules when designing ships for products. It is one of the things I dislike. Dislike ALOT! So that cannot really be used as a basis for argument, even though I would like it to be. I like consistency. I like rules that aren't contradictory with the story or the setting.
In this particular case, you are the only one who reads the rules and believes as you do. At your table, this is not an issue. Run it however you want, obviously. As far as RAW, without the actual author chiming in, it would seem that we have a consensus.
“Components may also be replaced in order to upgrade or downgrade a ship’s capabilities.” According to you this is not true since drive speeds and jump are capabilities can’t be changed. Also an elemental class cruiser can never add a carrier pod since that is considered a refit and you can’t according to you increase that. And they specifically say it’s a refit not a rebuild to change pods.
That's the idea I was going for... Increase everything in the engineering section.Depends on how you intend to upgrade your ride. And I still think it should be the total volume of the drives so you do have a little wiggle room.
No, you are reading it incorrectly. Just read each sentence, it all makes perfect sense.Again you’re changing the actual paragraph. The paragraph talks about what is changeable under a minor refit and that should be one of the primary factors when reading the paragraph. So they way the paragraph reads is you can not increase the size of the items in a major refit if your only doing a minor refit.
It says that minor refits can only be done on other systems, meaning systems other than the ones covered by the major refit. it really is that simple.No where does it say you can’t increase the size of Engines, or other components in a major refit.
The context is clear, your misunderstanding isn't.Why are all of you ignoring the context of the paragraph, there are reasons thing are group in paragraphs. Reading it the way you do here the rules
You are making claims I have not made. You can install items of higher TL that have the reduced size advantage, or replace a TL12 power plant with a TL15 power plant. Increased capability in the same size.“Components may also be replaced in order to upgrade or downgrade a ship’s capabilities.” According to you this is not true since drive speeds and jump are capabilities can’t be changed.
The element class cruisers were designed by an author reknowned for making up new rules and not using the ruels as written. There are no rules anywhere in MgT 1e or 2e for what the author has introduced in element class cruisers.Also an elemental class cruiser can never add a carrier pod since that is considered a refit and you can’t according to you increase that. And they specifically say it’s a refit not a rebuild to change pods.
No, the syntax is clear, the sentences are clear. What is written is clear, the clause of each sentence is clear, the logic is clear and there is nothing contradictory. What is happening is you have misunderstood and are now convincing yourself you are correct.The core of the problem is all of you are ignoring syntax and content in order to support what you want instead of reading it how it is written.
Have you noticed no one from mongoose has spoken to support your interpretation. Your interpretation is incorrect as per the rules as written.Have you noticed that no one from mongoose has spoken to support your interpretation. And it is an interpretation.
Of course they can:“Components may also be replaced in order to upgrade or downgrade a ship’s capabilities.” According to you this is not true since drive speeds and jump are capabilities can’t be changed.
Reducing their size is a change.Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced.
You are using the wrong edition...Also an elemental class cruiser can never add a carrier pod since that is considered a refit and you can’t according to you increase that. And they specifically say it’s a refit not a rebuild to change pods.