Hot Rodding is dead?

[Vormaerin]

No one is guilty about changing things as far as I am aware. But I like to know why decisions are made so I am changing things from an informed perspective. This is particularly true with game mechanics, which can have side effects when you change them.

 

[actionman]

Why are college costs rising?

 

[ottarrus]

I get the vibe from reading this thread, that everyone gets the same sense of quasi-guilt that I do, whenever they want to change something that's 'canon'.
May way around it is to state, "Wait a minute! Rule zero is also canon!", and then smugly continue.

That's why it's called In MY Traveller Universe. Yours will be different. That's fine. If I am playing your game I am agreeing to abide by your rulings and your TU. Simple.

 

[ottarrus]

As for the basic question, 'Is hot-rodding dead?', I don't have a problem with players upping the performance of their ships providing several conditions are met:
1. It's their ship. Not the bank's, not the IISS', not a patron or benefactor's, THEIRS. The logic is this: You can't take out a bank loan on a car then strip out the engine and tranny to make a suburban rocket out of it. The loan specifically forbids it. You can upgrade some limited stuff [electronics mostly] but that's it.
2. The players understand that the upgrades will cost MILLIONS of credits. And those credits will come out of their pockets.
3. The players accept that there are just some mods that'll never happen. You can't fit a J-6 drive in a 100 dton hull, for example. And certain minimum standards are required by the Imperial Ministry of Commerce.

 

[Condottiere]

Let's see.

Sixty one tonne fuel tank, twenty tonne jump drive, one tonne battery, six tonne bridge, two tonne stateroom; ninety tonnes.

One tonne manoeuvre drive, one tonne advanced fusion power plant.

 

[AndrewW]

Let's see.

Sixty one tonne fuel tank, twenty tonne jump drive, one tonne battery, six tonne bridge, two tonne stateroom; ninety tonnes.

One tonne manoeuvre drive, one tonne advanced fusion power plant.

Could even use a drop tank.

 

[Condottiere]

You could, but at a hundred tonnes, it's probably more convenient to keep that inhouse.

 

[ottarrus]

Let's see.

Sixty one tonne fuel tank, twenty tonne jump drive, one tonne battery, six tonne bridge, two tonne stateroom; ninety tonnes.

One tonne manoeuvre drive, one tonne advanced fusion power plant.

You want to play J-6 games with your Scout with Pilot [Starships]-1 Astrogation-1 Engineer [J-Drive]-1 [remembering the -1 skill bump for every job you do -- that's every skill at neg-2] have at it. But that's a pretty expensive way to Misjump to your death.
These aren't the robust drives of the IISS... you'll be paying extra for that [and any other drive mods other than 'standard']
No jab at you, but just because something is possible doesn't make that something smart, wise, or life-enhancing. A lot of Traveller gearheads refuse to admit that it isn't 'all in the math'. A 100-ton J-6 death machine is the Traveller equivalent of the JATO-car [see link below]

JATO Rocket Car - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Vormaerin]

I don't think you want to get into Mongoose's ridiculous skill targets. Those only work out if you assume that Skill 3 or so is the norm for a person doing a job. There's a mismatch between Traveller's longstanding assertion that Skill 1 is a competent operator with sufficient experience and training to work professionally and the task checks required in the current edition.

Mongoose X-boats ought to misjump and/or "bad jump" frequently.

 

[ottarrus]

I don't think you want to get into Mongoose's ridiculous skill targets. Those only work out if you assume that Skill 3 or so is the norm for a person doing a job. There's a mismatch between Traveller's longstanding assertion that Skill 1 is a competent operator with sufficient experience and training to work professionally and the task checks required in the current edition.

Mongoose X-boats ought to misjump and/or "bad jump" frequently.

I'm not trying to parse too finely here, but the skill system and the ship design system are linked. Without the RPG skill system, High Guard is just a wargame.
My point was based on the assumption of an average character with typical muster-out skill ratings trying to operate a high-speed /low-drag custom designed starship at the edge of TL 15 capabilities. My conclusion was it probably wasn't gonna turn out well for that character because trying to do three full-time jobs would stretch the capabilities of that character to the breaking point.

 

[Condottiere]

Possible isn't necessarily optimal.

What you'd want is also investing in a high teched computer, and a virtual crew.

I'd say the crucial skills would be astrogation, woke, and breathing.

 

[Arkathan]

I'm not trying to parse too finely here, but the skill system and the ship design system are linked. Without the RPG skill system, High Guard is just a wargame.
My point was based on the assumption of an average character with typical muster-out skill ratings trying to operate a high-speed /low-drag custom designed starship at the edge of TL 15 capabilities. My conclusion was it probably wasn't gonna turn out well for that character because trying to do three full-time jobs would stretch the capabilities of that character to the breaking point.

IIRC, the jump is a skill chain. The astrogator's calculation is the first step, and if you flub it, you can redo it. So that job is taken out of the series of jobs being done simultaneously.
Now the question becomes, do you need a piloting check prior to jumping if you have no drop tank?
So not all doom and gloom, but there is that penalty for trying to jump 6 parsecs to keep in mind.
Also, double stateroom so that you have two people. Get a boon die from the helper.

 

[Vormaerin]

I'm not trying to parse too finely here, but the skill system and the ship design system are linked. Without the RPG skill system, High Guard is just a wargame.
My point was based on the assumption of an average character with typical muster-out skill ratings trying to operate a high-speed /low-drag custom designed starship at the edge of TL 15 capabilities. My conclusion was it probably wasn't gonna turn out well for that character because trying to do three full-time jobs would stretch the capabilities of that character to the breaking point.

And my point is that the Chargen produces roughly the same outputs as Classic Traveller but Mongoose has substantially increased the difficulty of the tasks.

X-boats didn't even NEED an astrogator in CT, much less one that can safely make 8+ Astrogation checks while taking a penalty for also making the Engineering check to jump (which they are also taking a skill penalty on for doubling up as Astrogator).


Addendum: Just to have Pilot-1, Astrogation 1, Engineering 1 the scout would have to have completed 2 terms and made both advancement rolls (which are 9+ for Couriers). And that's ignoring the odds of actually getting those three skills. Pilot & Astrogation are part of basic, so you'd have it at 0 at that point.

This was fine in previous editions because you didn't need to make these rolls to do routine things like jump if you were following SOP and not flying an undercrewed or ill maintained ship or jumping inside a gravity well.

 

[Arkathan]

Core '22 page 157
Astrogation is done in advance. There is no piloting check and the Engineering check does not suffer from trying to do two things at once.
The Engineering check is chained to the results of the jump calculation, which can be repeated if the calculation is bad.

 

[Sigtrygg]

No routine task should require a dice roll, ever.
If jumping is as routine as air travel today there should be no rolls.

Jed "Hey my character has Travller's Aid Society membership, I travel to Capital, what happens when I get there?"

Referee "Not so fast, I have to roll for the astrogator, engineer and pilot for each of the forty four jumps - oh you misjump and die on the seventeenth jump"

Jed "this game is shite"

Alternative universe referee "the passenger shuttle opens its doors and you gaze out at the Imperial Capital Starport. You have seen the vids and experienced wafer plays but the reality of the vista stuns you (goes on to describe floating palaces, the impossible structures maintained with repulsor fields, and the to and fro buss of grav vehicles)"

Jed "cool, I will head to arrivals and use my personal comms to have a taxi waiting for my tour of the palace."

referee "if you make the connections you should be in time to witness an Imperial ceremony, the Emperor may be there"

Jed "great, by the way what's the date now after my journey?"

referee "the year is 1116...

 

[Arkathan]

Because you can redo the hard part, I have my characters roll for the jumps as a means to determine time to destination.
They like to refuel at gas giants, so that is the ONLY place the pilot roll comes in. Pass and do it quick, fail and take a critical hit from turbulence/bouncing at boundary layers.

 

[Vormaerin]

Core '22 page 157
Astrogation is done in advance. There is no piloting check and the Engineering check does not suffer from trying to do two things at once.
The Engineering check is chained to the results of the jump calculation, which can be repeated if the calculation is bad.

The penalty is for filling 2 crew positions. Astrogator and Engineer. You presumably have routine tasks to do that you are doubling up on and thus more stressed or having to cut corners.

There is a separate, harsher, do two things simultaneously penalty which does not apply.

 

[Vormaerin]

And, yes, your X-boat pilot can spend 1d6 hours on each attempt until your +2 astrogation roll gets an 8+. But why is there even a roll if that's the case? Any 'Just keep rolling until it works' task is bad design. Also, the standard time for the task should be the standard time. Taking extra time should not be the default.

 

[Arkathan]

The penalty is for filling 2 crew positions. Astrogator and Engineer. You presumably have routine tasks to do that you are doubling up on and thus more stressed or having to cut corners.

There is a separate, harsher, do two things simultaneously penalty which does not apply.

Where is that rule (searched the book and couldn't find it), and how does it apply to an Astrogator, whose chief duty, other than important calculations for a few hours every week or two is as a highly paid janitor?
When applying common sense, there is no stress, and the Engineer should have done the minor maintenance duties well before attempting to jump. In fact they can be done after the jump calculations, and prior to engaging jump engines.
The only stress involved is in combat jumps or rushing the jump, which comes with its own penalties.

 

[Vormaerin]

I'm at work so I can't look for it right now. But it is possible I'm carrying over something from an earlier edition. It's only a +1 difference.

Anyway, if you think the astrogator does 30 minutes of work every two weeks and is a janitor otherwise, I think there's not going to be any agreement on difficulty of tasks.

My presumption is that their duties are similar to a Navy quartermaster (who is the person responsible for navigation, unlike army quartermasters who are logistics people). The quartermaster is in charge of the watch-to-watch navigation and the maintenance, correction, and preparation of nautical charts and navigation publications. They are also responsible for navigational instruments and clocks. On submarines, the quartermaster/navigator is also responsible for all manner of ship's electronics: internal communications, navigation electronics, entertainment systems, and air recycling. Signalmen have been folded into the quartermaster duties too.

So, imho, the Ship's astrogator is also the sensor ops & comms ops. But that's a different topic.