Drinax Campaign Treasure Ship (Spoilers)

I will point out that in the adventure 'Fire on the Sindalian Main' the captain of a Galoof-class 'mega-freighter' (no such thing, it only displaces 30k dTons) may briefly encounter the characters at Dpres. The freighter (and presumably more like it) belongs to the Tobia Commerce Guild, and is a regular on the Imperial-Florian route. Trade is a vastly important strategic asset; and simply blasting all the starports & planets to atoms means the Third Imperium loses that asset.
 
Sigtrygg said:
Contrived...
as I said, contrived.
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Having read POD, Fifth Frontier War, Fleets of the Fifth Frontier War etc, this is what the Trojan Reach SECTOR Fleet looks like (I think):

2 x "Uashki" Second Line Battleships
1 x "Planet" Heavy Cruiser
3 x "Atlantic" Heavy Cruisers
1 x "Azhanti High Lightning" Strike Cruiser (in this case acting as a Strike Cruiser)
2 x "Gionetti" Light Cruisers
2 x "Skimkish" Light Carriers
1 x "Ritchey" Fleet Escort
1 x "P F Sloan" Fleet Escort
7 x Destroyers (Something worse than the "Midu Agasham")
5 x "Chrysanthemum" Destroyer Escorts
3 x "Fer de Lance" Destroyer Escorts
8 x "Gazelle" Close Escorts

Now we also know that the Tobia Colonial Fleet, at minimum, can provide 4 Patrol Corvettes and 1 "Ulfhednar" Escort Carrier! Several other Imperial planets in the Reach may be able to muster similar Colonial forces, Pax Rulin for example.

You can add in the sub-sector fleets of Pax Rulin, Gazulin), & Tobia, which probably consist of 1-2 Destroyer Escorts and 3-6 Close Escorts or Patrol Corvettes each. Pax Rulin & Tobia may also have an old destroyer as part of their sub-sector fleets. The Realgar naval base in Sindal may or may not be a base for a Sindal sub-sector fleet, if so, likely very small!

As to why the Imperium does not stomp all over pirate bases in the Reach after Treasure Ship, well "Game of Sun & Shadow" is that answer to the loss of the Treasure Ship! However that adventure also provides a very good answer why the Imperium has to be very careful, stomping around the Reach:

"As Captain Lenat pointed out, one of the reasons that
past punitive flotillas have just swept through the Reach
and returned home was to avoid the impression of a
military build-up on the border with the notoriously
touchy Aslan." (POD page 170)

Now The Glorious Empire sourcebook makes very clear that that the Hierate does not build Battleships, only the Glorious Empire has done, the "Syokhtai" class. However one "Syokhtai" wouldn't last long, one on one, against a competently handled "Uashki" Second Line Battleship. Also however, the Glorious Empire fleet, despite their battleships, still lost the Battle of Hliye, against the far far more numerous 'smaller' ships of the Ya’soisthea Aslan. The Imperial Navy is thoroughly outnumbered in the Reach, and cannot afford to even hint at breaching the Peace of Ftaheir!
 
Ragnar60 said:
Having read POD, Fifth Frontier War, Fleets of the Fifth Frontier War etc, this is what the Trojan Reach SECTOR Fleet looks like (I think):

2 x "Uashki" Second Line Battleships
1 x "Planet" Heavy Cruiser
3 x "Atlantic" Heavy Cruisers
1 x "Azhanti High Lightning" Strike Cruiser (in this case acting as a Strike Cruiser)
2 x "Gionetti" Light Cruisers
2 x "Skimkish" Light Carriers
1 x "Ritchey" Fleet Escort
1 x "P F Sloan" Fleet Escort
7 x Destroyers (Something worse than the "Midu Agasham")
5 x "Chrysanthemum" Destroyer Escorts
3 x "Fer de Lance" Destroyer Escorts
8 x "Gazelle" Close Escorts

Now we also know that the Tobia Colonial Fleet, at minimum, can provide 4 Patrol Corvettes and 1 "Ulfhednar" Escort Carrier! Several other Imperial planets in the Reach may be able to muster similar Colonial forces, Pax Rulin for example.

You can add in the sub-sector fleets of Pax Rulin, Gazulin), & Tobia, which probably consist of 1-2 Destroyer Escorts and 3-6 Close Escorts or Patrol Corvettes each. Pax Rulin & Tobia may also have an old destroyer as part of their sub-sector fleets. The Realgar naval base in Sindal may or may not be a base for a Sindal sub-sector fleet, if so, likely very small!

As to why the Imperium does not stomp all over pirate bases in the Reach after Treasure Ship, well "Game of Sun & Shadow" is that answer to the loss of the Treasure Ship! However that adventure also provides a very good answer why the Imperium has to be very careful, stomping around the Reach:

"As Captain Lenat pointed out, one of the reasons that
past punitive flotillas have just swept through the Reach
and returned home was to avoid the impression of a
military build-up on the border with the notoriously
touchy Aslan." (POD page 170)

Now The Glorious Empire sourcebook makes very clear that that the Hierate does not build Battleships, only the Glorious Empire has done, the "Syokhtai" class. However one "Syokhtai" wouldn't last long, one on one, against a competently handled "Uashki" Second Line Battleship. Also however, the Glorious Empire fleet, despite their battleships, still lost the Battle of Hliye, against the far far more numerous 'smaller' ships of the Ya’soisthea Aslan. The Imperial Navy is thoroughly outnumbered in the Reach, and cannot afford to even hint at breaching the Peace of Ftaheir!
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True, eventhough the Peace of Ftaheir only applies to 4 (I think) Aslan Clans. I love the Trojan Reach! :)
 
"The Heirate" is practically a fiction. You can't go to war with the Heirate, make a treaty with the Heirate, or anything else. It just means "that space over there where the Aslan are in charge.".

Each individual clan is a separate entity. The Imperium has a peace treaty with several clans in the Trojan Reach. They have a different peace treaty with different clans along the border on the other side of the rift.

Even if the Imperium only has those half squadrons and fragmentary units you describe stationed in the Trojan Reach, that's not all the forces available should some Aslan clan or three decide to invade the Imperium. Heck, its barely farther to Gushemege from Tobia than it is from the Aslan border, much less the rest of the Domain of Deneb that the Trojan Reaches are part of.

The Imperium doesn't want to stir up the Aslan because it isn't worth the hassle over a bunch of rando planets in a backwater. They get more value from trading with the Florians and the Aslan than they do from any of those ex-Sindalian worlds. They'd prefer the Aslan don't crush the Sindalian worlds mostly for PR reasons related to racial solidarity and because it provides a buffer to the nuisance of ihatei.

The Imperium is not a militaristic, expansionary power. Even in the days it was expansionary, it far preferred the carrot to the stick. And it's long past its expansionary phase.
 
Vormaerin said:
"The Heirate" is practically a fiction. You can't go to war with the Heirate, make a treaty with the Heirate, or anything else. It just means "that space over there where the Aslan are in charge.".

Each individual clan is a separate entity. The Imperium has a peace treaty with several clans in the Trojan Reach. They have a different peace treaty with different clans along the border on the other side of the rift.

Even if the Imperium only has those half squadrons and fragmentary units you describe stationed in the Trojan Reach, that's not all the forces available should some Aslan clan or three decide to invade the Imperium. Heck, its barely farther to Gushemege from Tobia than it is from the Aslan border, much less the rest of the Domain of Deneb that the Trojan Reaches are part of.

The Imperium doesn't want to stir up the Aslan because it isn't worth the hassle over a bunch of rando planets in a backwater. They get more value from trading with the Florians and the Aslan than they do from any of those ex-Sindalian worlds. They'd prefer the Aslan don't crush the Sindalian worlds mostly for PR reasons related to racial solidarity and because it provides a buffer to the nuisance of ihatei.

The Imperium is not a militaristic, expansionary power. Even in the days it was expansionary, it far preferred the carrot to the stick. And it's long past its expansionary phase.
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What Treaty does the Imperium have with the Clans of the Trojan Reach? I am only aware of the Peace of Ftahair. That is only between the Imperium and 4 Clans out of 29 Tlaukhu Clans. None of the other clans are bound by it, but most sort-of respect it to not provoke the 4 signatories. It calls for a 30-parsec zone where neither side can settle worlds. That has already been broken repeatedly by both sides, more so by the Solomani than anyone else.

Saying you can't go to war with the Hierate tells Me that you probably haven't read the Rebellion-era storyline where several Billion Aslan poured over the borders in the Trojan Reach and pushed the 3I all the way back out of the Trojan Reach and established colonies all through the Domain of Deneb. Those included Ihatei from all of the 29 and many of the other 4,000+ clans as well. That is pretty much the whole Hierate. They do not have a unifed government, but they can definitely act in coordination, as it evidenced by them kicking the 3I out of the Trojan Reach at the same time they wiped out the Glorious Empire and took many Florian worlds as well. They had a 3 fronted war against every major power near them behind the claw and won. Their attack didn't get blunted until they were most of the way through the Glisten and Trin's Veil subsectors. In the end, the 3I lost the Trojan Reach. Neumann is the only High-Pop world left to the 3I at the end of 1120. a new 5-parsec buffer zone exists in Gazulin and Pax Rulin
 
So let's see:

2 x "Uashki" Second Line Battleships -- War Fleets of the Fifth Frontier War 10: 200000 dTons
1 x "Planet" Heavy Cruiser -- SotR 52: 75000 dTons
3 x "Atlantic" Heavy Cruisers -- GDW Fighting Ships 32: 75000 dTons
1 x "Azhanti High Lightning" Strike Cruiser (in this case acting as a Strike Cruiser) -- HG 258: 60000 dTons
2 x "Gionetti" Light Cruisers -- FS 34: 30000 dTons
2 x "Skimkish" Light Carriers -- HG 235: 29000 dTons
1 x "Ritchey" Fleet Escort -- SotR 44: 8000 dTons
1 x "P F Sloan" Fleet Escort -- HG 231: 5000 dTons
7 x Destroyers (Something worse than the "Midu Agasham")
5 x "Chrysanthemum" Destroyer Escorts -- HG 207: 1000 dTons
3 x "Fer de Lance" Destroyer Escorts -- HG 211: 1000 dTons
8 x "Gazelle" Close Escorts -- HG 181: 400 dTons

I couldn't quickly find a description of the Usahki BB, but other than that (and the unspecified 'Destroyers') I am getting ~902200 dTons woth of ships; figure the 'Destoyers' as 3000 dTon 'Agashaam' class (for another 21000 dTons) and that gets us to 923200 dTons. That seems a little light, but this is strictly from published material, so it might reasonably be expected to be incomplete. There is another thread (https://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/threads/imperial-navy-ship-and-shipyard-sizes.124935) where 'production capacity of shipyards' is being discussed, and the estimate is that the Spinward Marches has a capacity to build:

Class A (all jump-capable ships (including capital ships),spacecraft, and small craft): 99,249,078 dtons. As discussed earlier, 39,500,000 dtons of that are on Mora, Trin, Glisten, and Rhylanor. As those four systems are the only TL-15 shipbuilders, that means the remaining 59,749,078 dtons are TL-12 builds.
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J. L. Brown said:
So let's see:

2 x "Uashki" Second Line Battleships --
1 x "Planet" Heavy Cruiser -- SotR 52: 75000 dTons
3 x "Atlantic" Heavy Cruisers -- GDW Fighting Ships 32: 75000 dTons
1 x "Azhanti High Lightning" Strike Cruiser (in this case acting as a Strike Cruiser) -- HG 258: 60000 dTons
2 x "Gionetti" Light Cruisers -- FS 34: 30000 dTons
2 x "Skimkish" Light Carriers -- HG 235: 29000 dTons
1 x "Ritchey" Fleet Escort -- SotR 44: 8000 dTons
1 x "P F Sloan" Fleet Escort -- HG 231: 5000 dTons
7 x Destroyers (Something worse than the "Midu Agasham")
5 x "Chrysanthemum" Destroyer Escorts -- HG 207: 1000 dTons
3 x "Fer de Lance" Destroyer Escorts -- HG 211: 1000 dTons
8 x "Gazelle" Close Escorts -- HG 181: 400 dTons

I couldn't quickly find a description of the Usahki BB, but other than that (and the unspecified 'Destroyers') I am getting ~502200 dTons woth of ships; figure the 'Destoyers' as 3000 dTon 'Agashaam' class (for another 21000 dTons) and that gets us to 523200 dTons. That seems a little light, but this is strictly from published material, so it might reasonably be expected to be incomplete. There is another thread (https://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/threads/imperial-navy-ship-and-shipyard-sizes.124935) where 'production capacity of shipyards' is being discussed, and the estimate is that the Spinward Marches has a capacity to build:
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That is not even a BatRon. It looks like 2 CruRons and 2 Battleships. That is not ever a subsector fleet.
 
At the risk of digging up CT canon.

A single BatRon of Tigress class BBs is 8 ships, while "Cruisers serving with a battle fleet are generally grouped in CruRons of from 4 to 8 ships, while individual ships or pairs of cruisers are used to form the hard core of scouting or raiding groups". An oversize destroyer squadron is 10 to 20 ships.
 
Just a wild estimate of the shipbuilding capacity of the Trojan Reach, it looks like the Third Imperium can muster ~21,831,605 dTons of Class A Starport construction / shipyard capacity. If 1% of that goes to Naval builds, an average navy ship takes ten years to build and serves for 100 years, then the Imperial Navy is looking at sustaining about 2.2 million dTons of ships for the Trojan Reach. The Navy probably gets a bit more than 1% of the capacity, though.

Only 9500000 dTons of that is TL-15, though -- Tobia. Theoretically, the Trojan Reach fleet could keep a single Batron of Tigress-class ships in the field, but doing so would be a bit of a strain. More likely that the highest-tech assets in the TR sector fleet would be smaller; maybe a Batron of four Kokirrak-class ships; backed up by a CruRon of eight Ghalalk-class armored cruisers. That comes out to 1.6 million dTons (~17% of Tobia's output) of high-capability ships; and the bulk of the rest of the fleet (and the auxiliaries) is built to TL-12 or 13 standards -- running at 2.5% of the other shipyards, that allows about 3 million dTons of smaller escorts and patrol vessels (Watchdogs, Ulfhednar, and Ritchey-class).
 
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J. L. Brown said:
Just a wild estimate of the shipbuilding capacity of the Trojan Reach, it looks like the Third Imperium can muster ~21,831,605 dTons of Class A Starport construction / shipyard capacity. If 1% of that goes to Naval builds, an average navy ship takes ten years to build and serves for 100 years, then the Imperial Navy is looking at sustaining about 2.2 million dTons of ships for the Trojan Reach. The Navy probably gets a bit more than 1% of the capacity, though.

Only 9500000 dTons of that is TL-15, though -- Tobia. Theoretically, the Trojan Reach fleet could keep a single Batron of Tigress-class ships in the field, but doing so would be a bit of a strain. More likely that the highest-tech assets in the TR sector fleet would be smaller; maybe a Batron of four Kokirrak-class ships; backed up by a CruRon of eight Ghalalk-class armored cruisers. That comes out to 1.6 million dTons (~17% of Tobia's output) of high-capability ships; and the bulk of the rest of the fleet (and the auxiliaries) is built to TL-12 or 13 standards -- running at 2.5% of the other shipyards, that allows about 3 million dTons of smaller escorts and patrol vessels (Watchdogs, Ulfhednar, and Ritchey-class).
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Remember. Imperial Military ships are primarily built at Depots. The Starport class of the Depot is irrelevant because the Depot's shipyard is not an open commercial facility. Kind of the whole problem with how Starports are classified. They are only from the point of view of Joe Civilian, not Joe Navy or Joe Megacorp-Worker. So, you could have a Billion tons of shipyard in a system with a Class-X Starport. Why? Because it is not open to the public. That is the problem with Traveller. They Kenobi everything. ie. It is only true from a certain point of view. I hate it! It makes worldbuilding impossible and is one of the worst ways ever to give information to Referees.

Same reason you could have every world in the sector with a Mega-corp Facility using up over half of the population of the sector, but they will not be listed as TL-15. Why? They do not sell to non-employees in-system. Those goods are for company employees only as well as for export.

Those are the Traveller rules in a nutshell. I hate it! As a player that information is all I need, but as a Referee, I need the "REAL" information. Any shipyard can build any TL or size ship it wants within the rules. Those things just aren't available to the PCs. We can't raid the facility because even the Referee doesn't know it is there, because the Traveller rules are only written for Joe Civilian, not Joe Navy, Joe Merc, Joe Criminal, etc.

So basically, any worldbuilding that We do is Us wasting Our time, because We either rewrite the whole game or it doesn't work outside of hack and slash gaming.
 
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MasterGwydion said:
Remember. Imperial Military ships are primarily built at Depots. The Starport class of the Depot is irrelevant because the Depot's shipyard is not an open commercial facility. Kind of the whole problem with how Starports are classified. They are only from the point of view of Joe Civilian, not Joe Navy or Joe Megacorp-Worker. So, you could have a Billion tons of shipyard in a system with a Class-X Starport. Why? Because it is not open to the public. That is the problem with Traveller. They Kenobi everything. ie. It is only true from a certain point of view. I hate it! It makes worldbuilding impossible and is one of the worst ways ever to give information to Referees.
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I don't believe that's accurate. In The Imperial Navy, it says this:

"The navy does not, for the most part, build its own ships. Most are constructed by corporate or megacorporate yards and turned over to the navy with due ceremony. However, some highly classified vessels are built or modified in yards owned by the navy, usually located at a depot and ostensibly part of the repair and maintenance facility. It is rumoured that some vessels are so secret that they are constructed where even the regular navy will not come into contact with them, in concealed or disguised shipyards located in otherwise uninteresting systems."

As the corporations and megacorporations don't set up shop at Depots, that strongly indicates that the building mainly takes place in regular systems.
 
Terry Mixon said:
I don't believe that's accurate. In The Imperial Navy, it says this:

"The navy does not, for the most part, build its own ships. Most are constructed by corporate or megacorporate yards and turned over to the navy with due ceremony. However, some highly classified vessels are built or modified in yards owned by the navy, usually located at a depot and ostensibly part of the repair and maintenance facility. It is rumoured that some vessels are so secret that they are constructed where even the regular navy will not come into contact with them, in concealed or disguised shipyards located in otherwise uninteresting systems."

As the corporations and megacorporations don't set up shop at Depots, that strongly indicates that the building mainly takes place in regular systems.
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That is directly contradicted by the Third Imperium book (Mongoose 2021), page 13.

"The Imperial Navy is a vast interstellar military force with bases spread throughout Imperial space. Most sectors have a Naval Depot, a dedicated star system where the navy’s starships are built and serviced."

What is your source? Are they both 2nd Edition Mongoose?

If they are both MgT2 then I have another bone to pick with Mongoose about quality control in their products. :(
 
MasterGwydion said:
That is directly contradicted by the Third Imperium book (Mongoose 2021), page 13.

"The Imperial Navy is a vast interstellar military force with bases spread throughout Imperial space. Most sectors have a Naval Depot, a dedicated star system where the navy’s starships are built and serviced."

What is your source? Are they both 2nd Edition Mongoose?

If they are both MgT2 then I have another bone to pick with Mongoose about quality control in their products. :(
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It's second edition Mongoose, in The Imperial Navy, page 39. Copyright 2023. By right of more recent copyright, I claim ascendency! ;)

I think I begin to see why we have such different views on shipyards and who runs them.

I have created a new topic and directly asked for some official help sorting it out.

Who Builds Imperial Navy Ships and Where Do They Do It?

So, in a couple of threads, there has been some spirited discussion on who builds the ships for the Imperial Navy, where they are built, and who oversees the commercial shipyards in regular systems (SPA or the commercial entities that built them). The core of the debate seems to be centered...
forum.mongoosepublishing.com
 
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Terry Mixon said:
It's second edition Mongoose, in The Imperial Navy, page 39. Copyright 2023. By right of more recent copyright, I claim ascendency! ;)

I think I begin to see why we have such different views on shipyards and who runs them.

I have created a new topic and directly asked for some official help sorting it out.

Who Builds Imperial Navy Ships and Where Do They Do It?

So, in a couple of threads, there has been some spirited discussion on who builds the ships for the Imperial Navy, where they are built, and who oversees the commercial shipyards in regular systems (SPA or the commercial entities that built them). The core of the debate seems to be centered...
forum.mongoosepublishing.com
Click to expand...
hahahahaha! Touche! By right of the more recent printing, I would have to say that you are correct.
 
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