Drinax Campaign Treasure Ship (Spoilers)

MasterGwydion said:
I would like to know what was intentional and what was in error. In SOM canon was changed to no longer require shipyards to do maintenance, so changing Canon happens, but if it was an accident, then We can ignore it as Canon. As always, We can ignore anything We like in Our own games, but official Canon, should be pretty consistent. That SOM change was huge. No longer do I need to stay near a TL-15 planet if I have a TL-15 ship, since I can do My maintenance anywhere. I used to always have to plot Trade Routes based on ships being able to get their annual maintenance, but now that is no longer necessary. So, this small change in Canon, lead to huge changes in the Charted Space universe.

Edit:
Also, if most of the Deneb, Spinward Marches, and Trojan Reach Fleets are built by Ling at Glisten, then post Rebellion, those shipyards were destroyed by the Aslan. If they are built at Depot, then they still exist since Depot never fell to the Vargr. Having consistent, clearly stated facts help Refs extrapolate the consequences of various scenarios. This also helps eliminate confusion between players and Referees. I tend to think Terry is correct in his reading of it, eventhough I disagree with it. He was able to cite the most recently printed material, so that should take precedence.
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Just because this thread has a lot about canon. A small point but I believe Depot in Corridor did fall to the Vargr. Maybe I am misremembering?
 
J. L. Brown said:
Sooo... back on topic: The 'Treasure Ship' scenario. There are Tobia Commerce Guild Galoof-class ships making regular runs on the Florian trade route; the Heirate route seems shorter & more profitable. What sorts of trade volumes and values would be reasonable estimates? The 'Treasure Ship' scenario is a sold to the characters as a 'heist', but it ends up having deep political ramifications. Given the stakes, what sort of payout is an appropriate lure? What consequences can be piled on top of the 'lose reputation with the Imperium'?
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Off the top of My head, I remember one of the books saying that the Hierate Route had 5 times the volume of traffic as the Florian Route. There was also a little blurb somewhere about the Tobia Commerce Guild building some new freighters, that once complete would give the TCG control of 80% of the Hierate Route from the Imperial side. Anyone have any idea where I read those things at?
 
I hacked together a layout of the Galoof-class which is Jump-3. If it makes three J-3 per month, the costs of operating the ship, divided by absolutely full cargo tonnage, means their cost per dTon of freight is ~886 Cr; but only ~789 Cr for three J-2s in a month,

The Imperium - Hierate J-2 route is:
Fist (B) -2- Wildeman (B) -2- Cordan (A) -2- Argona (B) -2- Sperle (B) -2- TechWorld (A) -2- Paal (B) -2- Tyokh (B);
the J-3 route is apparently:
Fist (B) -2- Wildeman (B) -3- Acrid (A) [correction: Arunisiir (B)] -3- TechWorld (A) -2- Paal (B) -2- Tyokh (B)

So if a Galoof is making the run from one end to the other, fully laden, the cost for the J-3 run is ~4136 Cr/dTon. The market rate that customers can expect to pay for shipping goods along the J-3 route is 1600+2600+2600+1600+1600 = 10 kCr/dton. So a Galoof can make profit of up to 5864 Cr/dTon; or ~89.4 MCr if fully loaded.

For the J-2 route it comes to ~5523 Cr/dTon; versus a 'market rate' of 11200 Cr/dTon. A Galoof can make up to ~5677 Cr/dTon at the standard rates; approximately 86.6 MCr in profits (per one-way trip) if fully laden.

But this assumes there is plenty of freight willing to pay the standard prices; and sellers in Fist and buyers in Tyokh willing to accept the added 10 kCr per ton for whatever arrives from Fist, and vice versa.

I do not know what the stops along the Florian Route are, or even the end-points. If a J-3 Galoof is making a Trip from Boronu to the Imperium, it seems like Nekrino is a better choice of destination than Fist. That does not seem to make sense in context of the scenario about Florians inspecting high-tech electronics gear from Imperials (at Torpol, I think?) which was described as being 'on the Florian route'. It also does not make sense in the context of the Kingdom of Drinax being able to threaten Florian-route trade. Without the route it is difficult to calculate costs.
 
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J. L. Brown said:
I hacked together a layout of the Galoof-class which is Jump-3. If it makes three J-3 per month, the costs of operating the ship, divided by absolutely full cargo tonnage, means their cost per dTon of freight is ~886 Cr; but only ~789 Cr for three J-2s in a month,

The Imperium - Heirate J-2 route is:
Fist (B) -2- Wildeman (B) -2- Cordan (A) -2- Argona (B) -2- Sperle (B) -2- TechWorld (A) -2- Paal (B) -2- Tyokh (B);
the J-3 route is apparently:
Fist (B) -2- Wildeman (B) -3- Acrid (A) -3- TechWorld (A) -2- Paal (B) -2- Tyokh (B)

So if a Galoof is making the run from one end to the other, fully laden, the cost for the J-3 run is ~4136 Cr/dTon. The market rate that customers can expect to pay for shipping goods along the J-3 route is 1600+2600+2600+1600+1600 = 10 kCr/dton. So a Galoof can make profit of up to 5864 Cr/dTon; or ~89.4 MCr if fully loaded.

For the J-2 route it comes to ~5523 Cr/dTon; versus a 'market rate' of 11200 Cr/dTon. A Galoof can make up to ~5677 Cr/dTon at the standard rates; approximately 86.6 MCr in profits (per one-way trip) if fully laden.

But this assumes there is plenty of freight willing to pay the standard prices; and sellers in Fist and buyers in Tyokh willing to accept the added 10 kCr per ton for whatever arrives from Fist, and vice versa.

I do not know what the stops along the Florian Route are, or even the end-points. If a J-3 Galoof is making a Trip from Boronu to the Imperium, it seems like Nekrino is a better choice of destination than Fist. That does not seem to make sense in context of the scenario about Florians inspecting high-tech electronics gear from Imperials (at Torpol, I think?) which was described as being 'on the Florian route'. It also does not make sense in the context of the Kingdom of Drinax being able to threaten Florian-route trade. Without the route it is difficult to calculate costs.
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The Hierate Route starts from Imisaa, not Fist. Fist is just the first jump in the chain.

PoD Book 2, page 166

"Imisaa Called the Trader’s World, Imisaa’s value comes purely from its location on the main trade route to Aslan space. Convoys or megafreighters returning from the Hierate arrive here and land at the Imisaa’s sprawling starport, where they are met by huge crowds of traders, speculators and buyers, howling for rare Aslan goods and exotic merchandise. The crossing to Aslan space is a hazardous one, and Imisaa is the last ‘safe’ stop before leaving the Imperium."

Also, don't forget that ships like the Galoof would also be paying for escort ships and likely be part of a convoy.

The Florian Route according to Alien Module 1 - Aslan page 161

"The Florian RouteThe main Imperium/Florian League trade route runs from Tobia to Yggdrasil. Starting at Fist/Tobia, the route follows the Aslan route for several jumps before diverging at Arunisiir. From there, the route passes through Tlaiowaha subsector, via Blue, Torpol and Oghma, then into the Sindalian Main via Thebus, then Acis and along the Main to Janus, then a jump to the refuelling station at 291-540 and then finally to Yggdrasil. For a jump-2 freighter, this is a journey of fourteen jumps, taking on average 140 days. There are several faster jump-4 routes from Pax Rulin or Glisten but these routes are extremely hazardous. The Florian League provides no protection for traffic along this route; Imperial ships do sometimes accompany convoys along the corridor but most traders are on their own after leaving Arunisiir. The Florian League imports radioactives, computers and electronics, biochemicals, spices and medical supplies; they export advanced manufactured goods, advanced vehicles, advanced weapons and other manufactured goods."
 
Best Route for the Hierate Route would be a J-4 route. Tobia-Fist-Cordan-Tech World-Tyokh

A TL-13 route which isn't a problem for the Imperium or the Aslan.
 
J. L. Brown said:
That does not seem to make sense in context of the scenario about Florians inspecting high-tech electronics gear from Imperials (at Torpol, I think?) which was described as being 'on the Florian route'. It also does not make sense in the context of the Kingdom of Drinax being able to threaten Florian-route trade. Without the route it is difficult to calculate costs.
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For this point @MasterGwydion corrected me before. It was the Kingdom of Drinax not the Drinax system that was doing the interfering. So at Torpol and at Paal for the two trade routes.
 
So apparently:
Fist (B) -2- Wildeman (B) [or Iiligan (B)] -3- Acrid (A) [correction: Arunisiir (B)] -2- Blue (B) -2- Torpol (B) -2- Oghma (B) -2- Thebus (B) -3- Acis (B) -2- Tyr (A) -3- Janus (C) -2- 291-540 (E) -2- Yggdrasil (B).

The problem with J-4 trade routes is cost; although time is money, and there might be a few willing to pay a premium for speed. The published Florian route is weird, not least because it skips Dpres (which features published encounters with Florian-route trade ships) & ends OUTSIDE the Florian League.

It is also weird in that Arunisiir is on the J-3 Hierate route; and the jump from Thebus to Acis is also J-3. Then instead of making the J-3 from Janus (C) to Dpres (B), it instead makes a J-2 to 291-540 (E); that doesn't 1} save any time, 2} make re-fueling easy, or 3} present any worthwhile trading opportunities. Then it goes on to state that 'for a J-2 ship this is 14 jumps', another oddity. Acis (B) to Janus (C) is left vague, but J-3 to Tyr (A) then J-2 to Janus (C) makes the most sense.

I tend to think that (if a trader is going to be using a J-3 route anyway) a Boronu to Nekrino run is just as good or better:
Boronu (B) [or Ilnest (B), or Forandin (B)] -3 [or 2]- Dpres (B) -3- Janus (C) -3- Tyr (A) -3- Salif (A) -3- Vume (B) -2- Charcuterie Chalchiutlicue (B) -2- Nekrino (B)

When I get home I will run some numbers.
 
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I feel like the bigger Corps use the higher/longer jump published routes but the tramp traders at J2 carry along the fringe spec cargo.

For the Hierate route - large ships bringing meat on the hoof towards Aslan space at J3/4 {the background trade the players are not involved with} while Captain Bourdain at J2 is gambling on having those small sweet giant rodents will breed and he can sell them for a huge profit and he just needs help with an escort for a couple of jumps......
 
The unfortunate truth is that any number we decide on is basically an asspull. We don't know anything about the actual costs or the business environment. Traveller has extremely simplified, it is all the same everywhere values oriented towards making playing PCs with ships easy.

There's no information on spaceship insurance, no underwriting of cargos, no information on what a normal loss rate is, no information on how much management overhead the shipping route is paying for, no information on import/export taxes, sales taxes, the licensing fees.

Do they send a Galoof because the Florians limit the number of ships that visit, not the volume of trade? Is the Galoof the biggest ship that makes sense? Or just the biggest available in the region? Or is it not the optimum ship at all but just what they have?

The best route on the map might not be the best route politically. The Galoof's owner might have a factory on some less than straight line route. Or be banned from doing business on the more direct planet because of some thing that happened in the past.

What are the Florians selling (or buying) that makes going that distance to get it and what is the demand? Is that profitable price based on limited availability so that if I bring too much at once, my Florian Tulips won't sell at the price I need? Is the Duke of Tobia's addiction to Florian bobblehead dolls literally underpinning the entire market because he's a trendsetter?

Florian Trade could be literally the most profitable thing in the Reaches or it could just be another interesting trade route and both would fit the information we have.

I know it isn't that helpful, but the answer is literally "what would be the most fun for you?" because the setting is never going to dive into that level of detail to answer the question. And even if they gave the answers for Tobia-Floria trade, those answers wouldn't apply to Tobia-Aslan trade. :(
 
J. L. Brown said:
So apparently:
Fist (B) -2- Wildeman (B) [or Iiligan (B)] -3- Acrid (A) [correction: Arunisiir (A)] -2- Blue (B) -2- Torpol (B) -2- Oghma (B) -2- Thebus (B) -3- Acis (B) -2- Tyr (A) -3- Janus (C) -2- 291-540 (E) -2- Yggdrasil (B).

The problem with J-4 trade routes is cost; although time is money, and there might be a few willing to pay a premium for speed. The published Florian route is weird, not least because it skips Dpres (which features published encounters with Florian-route trade ships) & ends OUTSIDE the Florian League.

It is also weird in that Arunisiir is on the J-3 Hierate route; and the jump from Thebus to Acis is also J-3. Then instead of making the J-3 from Janus (C) to Dpres (B), it instead makes a J-2 to 291-540 (E); that doesn't 1} save any time, 2} make re-fueling easy, or 3} present any worthwhile trading opportunities. Then it goes on to state that 'for a J-2 ship this is 14 jumps', another oddity. Acis (B) to Janus (C) is left vague, but J-3 to Tyr (A) then J-2 to Janus (C) makes the most sense.

I tend to think that (if a trader is going to be using a J-3 route anyway) a Boronu to Nekrino run is just as good or better:
Boronu (B) [or Ilnest (B), or Forandin (B)] -3 [or 2]- Dpres (B) -3- Janus (C) -3- Tyr (A) -3- Salif (A) -3- Vume (B) -2- Charcuterie Chalchiutlicue (B) -2- Nekrino (B)

When I get home I will run some numbers.
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I have found sources with conflicting information on the actual routes. The Florian route is stupid. Even if they still wanted to leave from Imisaa, like for the Hierate Route, the J-2 should go Iilgan - Exocet - Blue, not Wildeman - Cordan - Arunisiir - Blue. That is an entire extra jump for nothing.
 
Vormaerin said:
The unfortunate truth is that any number we decide on is basically an asspull. We don't know anything about the actual costs or the business environment. Traveller has extremely simplified, it is all the same everywhere values oriented towards making playing PCs with ships easy.

There's no information on spaceship insurance, no underwriting of cargos, no information on what a normal loss rate is, no information on how much management overhead the shipping route is paying for, no information on import/export taxes, sales taxes, the licensing fees.

Do they send a Galoof because the Florians limit the number of ships that visit, not the volume of trade? Is the Galoof the biggest ship that makes sense? Or just the biggest available in the region? Or is it not the optimum ship at all but just what they have?

The best route on the map might not be the best route politically. The Galoof's owner might have a factory on some less than straight line route. Or be banned from doing business on the more direct planet because of some thing that happened in the past.

What are the Florians selling (or buying) that makes going that distance to get it and what is the demand? Is that profitable price based on limited availability so that if I bring too much at once, my Florian Tulips won't sell at the price I need? Is the Duke of Tobia's addiction to Florian bobblehead dolls literally underpinning the entire market because he's a trendsetter?

Florian Trade could be literally the most profitable thing in the Reaches or it could just be another interesting trade route and both would fit the information we have.

I know it isn't that helpful, but the answer is literally "what would be the most fun for you?" because the setting is never going to dive into that level of detail to answer the question. And even if they gave the answers for Tobia-Floria trade, those answers wouldn't apply to Tobia-Aslan trade. :(
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This is a BS answer. Then why even bother to write a setting, if the answer to everything is do it how you want in your game? The Mongoose wants to write for the Charted Space setting, then actual give Us detail. One of the reasons I loved PoD is because it gave more detail of a subsector than any other adventure/campaign that came before it. That level of detail is what has allowed Me to have a sandbox game where it doesn't matter where My players go. As long as they stay within the Trojan Reach, I am more or less ready for them.

Those who just run adventures and not sandbox campaign will never understand what I am tallking about. For those people, adventures are the same as the old choose your own adventure novels, with railroading, limited choices, and a mandate to "win". My sandbox campaigns, there is no winning, there is only the players writing their own stories in an open universe.
 
Part of the problem is that the PoD setting is about a decade old at this point and has had maybe a dozen different writers of various inclinations over that time.

Mongoose gives us broad strokes to do things with, others fill in things like on the wiki that are fan based additions.

Here is what the official PoD Trojan Reach Book has as of the latest publishing in FG. That is what I give my players to use as the basis of their knowledge for their Travellers to interact with as they decide what to do with King Oleb.

1725497037900.png

1725497006378.png

I know these details have been shared up thread just pointing out this is as close as we will get to a definitive answer... until Borderlands comes out later this year and who knows what new details it will throw into the pile.
 
Anstett said:
Part of the problem is that the PoD setting is about a decade old at this point and has had maybe a dozen different writers of various inclinations over that time.

Mongoose gives us broad strokes to do things with, others fill in things like on the wiki that are fan based additions.

Here is what the official PoD Trojan Reach Book has as of the latest publishing in FG. That is what I give my players to use as the basis of their knowledge for their Travellers to interact with as they decide what to do with King Oleb.

View attachment 2170

View attachment 2169

I know these details have been shared up thread just pointing out this is as close as we will get to a definitive answer... until Borderlands comes out later this year and who knows what new details it will throw into the pile.
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There is already a Borderlands book. So, most of this detail has already been written. Given Mongoose's history, I will surprised, very pleasantly so, if the new book is not just a reprint of the old book with a few minor updates. For example. I bought the Trojan Reach book. It was a waste of money since it was basically the same book as PoD book 2, but with less information.
 
MasterGwydion said:
There is already a Borderlands book. So, most of this detail has already been written. Given Mongoose's history, I will surprised, very pleasantly so, if the new book is not just a reprint of the old book with a few minor updates. For example. I bought the Trojan Reach book. It was a waste of money since it was basically the same book as PoD book 2, but with less information.
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I thought that Trojan Reach book predated PoD? That is why I did not purchase yet.

Also Matt has said the new Borderlands book will have more new material in it.
 
MasterGwydion said:
Which makes book 2 of PoD the lazy book.
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I disagree with this. If there was a Trojan Reach book out there already and the author of PoD uses that and adds new information to expand on things it how I think it should be.
Similar to what I hope the Borderlands book will be. Adding in new details, expanding what we know about that set of systems.
 
Anstett said:
I disagree with this. If there was a Trojan Reach book out there already and the author of PoD uses that and adds new information to expand on things it how I think it should be.
Similar to what I hope the Borderlands book will be. Adding in new details, expanding what we know about that set of systems.
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Why pay for a book that is largely a reprint of previous material? Just sell Me a book with the new material.
 
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