MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
btw... I do not have Imperial Navy. Who was the writer? Third Imperium was written by Christopher Griffen. Although Geir is in the acknowledgements, so maybe he knows something.
Drinax Campaign Treasure Ship (Spoilers)
- Thread starter PsiTraveller
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Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Attachments
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
All I know is that I wrote neither book, so I'm staying neutral here...
I don't see the problem. There are shipyards in the Depot systems. That's a given, because they do decommissioning, refits, recommissionings, and other maintenance work. There's no reason that they can't build new starships there. It is very unlikely that the shipyard workers are actual Navy personnel. That would just be weird, frankly.
You have a brief, high level summary in one book and a more fulsome explanation in another. Neither statement is false. They just aren't comprehensive. They were looking at the situation from different perspectives.
People talk this way all the time in real life. I can pull up dozens of articles about "The US Navy's shipbuilding capacity" or that makes statements like 'The US Navy is building...'. But the US Navy does not literally build any ships. Military contractors build ships for the Navy.
Any suggestion that depots are the only place that anyone can build a ship for the Navy is surely unintended. It doesn't make sense and it directly conflicts with decades of Traveller material. Depots are places where Naval vessels are built. Depots are not the ONLY place Naval vessels are built. That's why the word "only" is not in the sentence.
You have a brief, high level summary in one book and a more fulsome explanation in another. Neither statement is false. They just aren't comprehensive. They were looking at the situation from different perspectives.
People talk this way all the time in real life. I can pull up dozens of articles about "The US Navy's shipbuilding capacity" or that makes statements like 'The US Navy is building...'. But the US Navy does not literally build any ships. Military contractors build ships for the Navy.
Any suggestion that depots are the only place that anyone can build a ship for the Navy is surely unintended. It doesn't make sense and it directly conflicts with decades of Traveller material. Depots are places where Naval vessels are built. Depots are not the ONLY place Naval vessels are built. That's why the word "only" is not in the sentence.
Indeed, no reason both cannot be true. There are an awful lot of military ships in the Imperium, and the idea that they are just built in one kind of place...
The "Uashki" Second Line Battleships are in War Fleets of the Fifth Frontier War (page 10) and are 200,000 tons each.
Literally right after writing that piece, an updated version of The Fifth Frontier War was published, so you can add another couple of "Chrysanthemum" Destroyer Escorts to the total. That above is the Imperial SECTOR FLEET for the whole of the Trojan Reach, according to the Fifth Frontier War source book. The Trojan Reach is a military back water, and the nearest Bat Ron is at Mora, a minimum of ten jumps away at Jump-4 from Tobia!
If you look back at the old 1st Edition Sector Fleet book, each sub-sector fleet might number between another 55,000-60,000 tons of ships. However at least half that tonnage in each case is made up by an old "Gionetti" class light cruiser. Have a look at the naval complement at Dpres in Fire on the Sindalian Main to understand what the sub-sector fleet at Realgar might look like! The same publication also states that much of the Realgar bases ships are out on convoy duty along the Florian route, much of the time.
The Peace of Ftaheir was only signed by four Aslan clans! However any Aslan clan breaking the Peace of Ftaheir would face those four clans AND their allied clans stomping all over them, for the disrepect shown, according to the Aslan honour system, even before the Imperium gets involved! Pages 121-124 of The Glorious Empire gives the background behind the Aslan invasion of the Trojan Reach in the Rebellion period. Players who go to Stoyhus in The Prodigal Outcast may even meet the instigator of the Ihatei Invasion!
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
First of all, the Emperor has shares in every megacorporation.
Likely, any number of aristocrats build up their stock portfolio similarly.
Meegacorporations likely have investments in local corporations.
Overflow from Admiralty operated shipyards will flow to private shipyards.
And it might actually be more efficient, in certain circumstances, to pass work on to private enterprise.
Presumably.
Likely, any number of aristocrats build up their stock portfolio similarly.
Meegacorporations likely have investments in local corporations.
Overflow from Admiralty operated shipyards will flow to private shipyards.
And it might actually be more efficient, in certain circumstances, to pass work on to private enterprise.
Presumably.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Nor is the word, some, few, most, or any other clarifying word.
We need to quit thinking about how the US does things. The US is not Traveller. Why woudl the military run on the US model when they have nobles? Nothing is more un-American than nobles, so the Imperial Navy is nothing like the US Navy in form or function.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
CT->MT canon is clear on this - the IN gets ships built at depots and at shipyards owned by corporations - see A:1 and S:5 for details.
At the risk of offending, The Third Imperium setting book conflicts with prior canon in a few places, this may be intentional or it may be in error.
Who Builds Imperial Navy Ships and Where Do They Do It?
So, in a couple of threads, there has been some spirited discussion on who builds the ships for the Imperial Navy, where they are built, and who oversees the commercial shipyards in regular systems (SPA or the commercial entities that built them). The core of the debate seems to be centered...
forum.mongoosepublishing.com
At the risk of offending, The Third Imperium setting book conflicts with prior canon in a few places, this may be intentional or it may be in error.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I would like to know what was intentional and what was in error. In SOM canon was changed to no longer require shipyards to do maintenance, so changing Canon happens, but if it was an accident, then We can ignore it as Canon. As always, We can ignore anything We like in Our own games, but official Canon, should be pretty consistent. That SOM change was huge. No longer do I need to stay near a TL-15 planet if I have a TL-15 ship, since I can do My maintenance anywhere. I used to always have to plot Trade Routes based on ships being able to get their annual maintenance, but now that is no longer necessary. So, this small change in Canon, lead to huge changes in the Charted Space universe.
Edit:
Also, if most of the Deneb, Spinward Marches, and Trojan Reach Fleets are built by Ling at Glisten, then post Rebellion, those shipyards were destroyed by the Aslan. If they are built at Depot, then they still exist since Depot never fell to the Vargr. Having consistent, clearly stated facts help Refs extrapolate the consequences of various scenarios. This also helps eliminate confusion between players and Referees. I tend to think Terry is correct in his reading of it, eventhough I disagree with it. He was able to cite the most recently printed material, so that should take precedence.
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Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
The Third Inperium book actually backs up what you’re saying. It’s The Imperial Navy that seems to be in conflict there.
While this may seem pedantic, if the Navy has the yards at Depot, they are Navy yards with civilian contractors like NASA uses (I worked in Mission Coltrol for almost two decades as a civilian contractor). The Imperial Navy makes a big deal about the procurement process and that makes it pretty clear that it’s not the Navy calling the shots on who builds what where. That means civilian yards that won’t be in Depot.
While that conflicts with what came before, it’s more realistic in a game where those kinds of things will affect players. If Mongoose wanted to have all Navy ships built at Depot in yards they control, then they should have said so in The Imperial Navy.
We’ll all end up doing what we feel best, but as this is the new canon, they should clarify so we can know the intent as we blithely change it to suit what makes sense.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
This.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I'll add to the flurry of conversation by adding a section taken from The Imperial Navy on procurement. This really makes it sounds like most Navy shipbuilding takes place away from a depot. Otherwise, the following makes little sense. I'll toss this into the other threads as well.
---
"There are other pressures at play, as well. Megacorporations and major shipyards have a lot of influence and can persuade the procurement board to buy their design despite that of a competitor being, on balance, better. Employment is yet another issue; the navy has at times ended up with rather poor vessels because building them kept huge numbers of people in work. It is the naval crews that end up paying the price for this economic decision but in a system as complex as the Imperium, trade-offs are inevitable.
The procurement process can be very complex, with the cost of a ship class offset in various ways. For example, a shipyard might offer to build a particular class at a discount, providing the Imperium funds the construction of a prototype it hopes will later be adopted for service. Conversely, the navy might agree to award a build contract to a particular megacorporation in return for the construction of infrastructure on a key world. These offset deals can be so complex that nobody really knows the true cost of the project, and in turn can lead to rather strange decisions.
Once a contract is awarded, ships go into production, usually at several yards in different regions. Lessons learned with the lead ships of the class are then incorporated into later examples, which in some cases can lead to an extensive mid-build redesign. One trick commonly used by the procurement board is to initially build a ship with a reduced specification, then ask for money for upgrades in future budgets. When this works, it can produce very capable vessels that would not have been affordable in a single budget allocation, but if the extra funding is not awarded the ship will have to manage without some of its intended systems. This is one reason why some classes never receive their full electronics fit, point defences or other necessary components."
---
"There are other pressures at play, as well. Megacorporations and major shipyards have a lot of influence and can persuade the procurement board to buy their design despite that of a competitor being, on balance, better. Employment is yet another issue; the navy has at times ended up with rather poor vessels because building them kept huge numbers of people in work. It is the naval crews that end up paying the price for this economic decision but in a system as complex as the Imperium, trade-offs are inevitable.
The procurement process can be very complex, with the cost of a ship class offset in various ways. For example, a shipyard might offer to build a particular class at a discount, providing the Imperium funds the construction of a prototype it hopes will later be adopted for service. Conversely, the navy might agree to award a build contract to a particular megacorporation in return for the construction of infrastructure on a key world. These offset deals can be so complex that nobody really knows the true cost of the project, and in turn can lead to rather strange decisions.
Once a contract is awarded, ships go into production, usually at several yards in different regions. Lessons learned with the lead ships of the class are then incorporated into later examples, which in some cases can lead to an extensive mid-build redesign. One trick commonly used by the procurement board is to initially build a ship with a reduced specification, then ask for money for upgrades in future budgets. When this works, it can produce very capable vessels that would not have been affordable in a single budget allocation, but if the extra funding is not awarded the ship will have to manage without some of its intended systems. This is one reason why some classes never receive their full electronics fit, point defences or other necessary components."
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
There was a clarification on who builds Navy ships and where in another thread.
Who Builds Imperial Navy Ships and Where Do They Do It?
So, in a couple of threads, there has been some spirited discussion on who builds the ships for the Imperial Navy, where they are built, and who oversees the commercial shipyards in regular systems (SPA or the commercial entities that built them). The core of the debate seems to be centered...
forum.mongoosepublishing.com
"Civilian yards that won't be in a Depot" is a sentence that makes no sense to me. I can see Pearl Harbor Naval Shipyard out my window. Like all Naval Shipyards, it is a refit, maintenance, and repair facility. It is inside Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam. You are on the Navy base, it isn't part of the civilian port. Nevertheless, it employs 12 civilian contractors for every uniformed person that works in that part of the base. The Naval personnel are management, logistics, planning, etc. The people actually turning wrenches (so to speak) are civilian tradesmen. There will be swarms of civilians in every Depot in the Imperium. There will be civilian population centers for those workers.
The Newport News Shipyard is a civilian owned shipyard where the US Navy's aircraft carriers (and other ships) are built. It is across the harbor from Norfolk Naval Shipyard. Newport News Shipyard is the workplace of a good number of US Navy personnel from the nearby Naval bases. The Naval personnel there do the same thing they do at an actual Naval Shipyard: they provide administrative, management, and technical oversight to make sure the contractors know what the job specs are. There's no reason that the space equivalent of Newport News (the town) couldn't be in a Depot System. Depot systems aren't off limits in total. They have civilian areas.
I would expect that all worlds that get Imperial Navy construction contracts have Naval bases in them, because even the civilian shipyards will have a contingent of Naval personnel providing support for the builders. And I would expect favored shipbuilders to have shipyards in a Depot system.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
The reason I saw that the way I do is that I don't see the civilians owning the yards in a depot. They likely are providing civilian contractors to do the work, but in a system entirely run by the Navy, those will be Navy yards. Or perhaps those are yards where only Navy personnel are allowed because of the work. It may be a fine distinction, and it could go either way, but just because the US does it that way doesn't mean the Imperium does.
As far as all worlds that get Navy contracts needing Naval bases, I don't see that. The Navy can detach people to work there on special duty. They will go where the ships are being built rather than forcing the ships to only be built where there is an established Navy presence.
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The distinction between Norfolk Naval Shipyard (which the Navy owns and the work is done by civilian employees) and Newport News Shipyard (where the shipyard is owned by a civilian company and the Navy provides oversight of the work done by those civilian employees) is a pretty fine hairsplit. Does it really make a meaningful difference whether LSP owns a shipyard in the Depot system or just supplies all the workers? LSP is still building the ship for the Navy.
In neither case is anyone in a uniform doing the building. The military does not train people to build equipment. They train people to operate and maintain things. It's true that you could have a different model. The Imperial Navy could own commercial businesses and consider its employees to be Navy personnel. There's no evidence of that. But there's no reason you couldn't do it that way.
The other point about Naval bases is kind of a chicken and egg argument. Whether the Naval base came first and the shipyard chosen because of proximity or the shipyard was chosen so a Naval base was established is irrelevant. If Naval vessels are being built at a location in any quantity, you'll need a military base. You'll have the people working at the shipyard and their families. You'll need a barracks for the crew of the ship in for a refit/repair or for the new crew of a ship coming into service (though I guess you could have civilian operators do the shakedown cruise and jump it to where the crew is). I'm just saying that if you are looking at two planets with class A starports and wondering which one might also build warships, the one with the Naval base is going to be it.
In neither case is anyone in a uniform doing the building. The military does not train people to build equipment. They train people to operate and maintain things. It's true that you could have a different model. The Imperial Navy could own commercial businesses and consider its employees to be Navy personnel. There's no evidence of that. But there's no reason you couldn't do it that way.
The other point about Naval bases is kind of a chicken and egg argument. Whether the Naval base came first and the shipyard chosen because of proximity or the shipyard was chosen so a Naval base was established is irrelevant. If Naval vessels are being built at a location in any quantity, you'll need a military base. You'll have the people working at the shipyard and their families. You'll need a barracks for the crew of the ship in for a refit/repair or for the new crew of a ship coming into service (though I guess you could have civilian operators do the shakedown cruise and jump it to where the crew is). I'm just saying that if you are looking at two planets with class A starports and wondering which one might also build warships, the one with the Naval base is going to be it.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I hear you and your view is valid.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
The real difference between government and private owned shipyards, might come down to prioritization, and negotiation over contract terms.
To meet Fisher's goal of building the ship in a single year, material was stockpiled in advance and a great deal of prefabrication was done from May 1905 with about 6,000 man weeks of work expended before she was formally laid down on 2 October 1905.[38] She was built at HM Dockyard, Portsmouth, which was regarded as the fastest-building shipyard in the world. No. 5 Slip was screened from prying eyes; attempts were made to indicate that the design was no different to other battleships. Some 1,100 men were already employed by the time she was laid down, but soon this number rose to 3,000. Whereas on previous ships the men had worked a 48-hour week, they were required on Dreadnought to work a 69-hour, six-day week from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m., which included compulsory overtime with only a 30-minute lunch break. While double-shifting was considered to ease the long hours which were unpopular with the men, this was not possible due to labour shortages.[38] On Day 6 (7 October), the first of the bulkheads and most of the middle-deck beams were in place. By Day 20, the forward part of the bow was in position and the hull plating was well underway. By Day 55 all of the upper-deck beams were in place, and by Day 83 the upper deck plates were in position. By Day 125 (4 February), the hull was finished.
To meet Fisher's goal of building the ship in a single year, material was stockpiled in advance and a great deal of prefabrication was done from May 1905 with about 6,000 man weeks of work expended before she was formally laid down on 2 October 1905.[38] She was built at HM Dockyard, Portsmouth, which was regarded as the fastest-building shipyard in the world. No. 5 Slip was screened from prying eyes; attempts were made to indicate that the design was no different to other battleships. Some 1,100 men were already employed by the time she was laid down, but soon this number rose to 3,000. Whereas on previous ships the men had worked a 48-hour week, they were required on Dreadnought to work a 69-hour, six-day week from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m., which included compulsory overtime with only a 30-minute lunch break. While double-shifting was considered to ease the long hours which were unpopular with the men, this was not possible due to labour shortages.[38] On Day 6 (7 October), the first of the bulkheads and most of the middle-deck beams were in place. By Day 20, the forward part of the bow was in position and the hull plating was well underway. By Day 55 all of the upper-deck beams were in place, and by Day 83 the upper deck plates were in position. By Day 125 (4 February), the hull was finished.
J. L. Brown
Emperor Mongoose
Sooo... back on topic: The 'Treasure Ship' scenario. There are Tobia Commerce Guild Galoof-class ships making regular runs on the Florian trade route; the Heirate route seems shorter & more profitable. What sorts of trade volumes and values would be reasonable estimates? The 'Treasure Ship' scenario is a sold to the characters as a 'heist', but it ends up having deep political ramifications. Given the stakes, what sort of payout is an appropriate lure? What consequences can be piled on top of the 'lose reputation with the Imperium'?
