Did anyone manage to fix Classic Traveller: High Guard?

[Anonymous]

We recently started (trying to) play High Guard 1980 with the JTAS errata.

Does anyone have house rules that fix the issue with being unable to penetrate the battle line?

Under the standard rules, each player forms their ships up into a line of battle, and a reserve. Line ships take turns firing at each other until each has had their shot. Then, if all of the enemy line is unable to fire any offensive weapons, the opponent can attack again, against the reserve, which cannot shoot back. After that (regardless of whether or not the line is broken), a new round starts with the creation of a new line and reserve.

Either we misread the rules, or the problem seems quite fundamental. So long as at least one battle-line ship is able to fire a weapon the reserve cannot be engaged. Since it's also possible to build some very cheap, almost unkillable ships, the reserve can effectively never be attacked.

Being unable to attack the reserve is broken in two ways: first it breaks the game lore if a carrier or convoy is untouchable, and second, ships in the reserve can conduct repairs, one hit per turn, without limit (that's another rule we need to fix).

We've tried various means to fix this. Things we have tried, and results, are as follows.

1) Changing the point at which the line is broken.

We tried saying each battle line ship can only block X number of enemy battle-line ships from engaging the reserve. The problem is determing how many ships, and their sizes.

Can a 75-ton fighter block a 200,000-ton battleship from picking its target? What about 100 of them? How does tech level affect this? Since relative computer factor is a DM on to hit rolls, it's representing a combination of electronic warfare (sensor vs jammer), and movement prediction vs evasion. So a higher TL squadron should be able to evade being blocked by a lower TL.

We tried to develop a die roll test for it, based on the number, tonnage and TL of the ships remaining in the lines, but never managed to make anything sane.

2) Allow a random check to break the line.

You can shoot at the reserve if you want to, instead of the battle line. For each ship that does this, you make a die roll. On a success, it can engage the reserve ship of your choice. On a failure, it is blocked by the opponent's choice of ship, and it can't shoot back against the blocker.

As this made it too easy to get a shot at a reserve ship (and you only need one: freighters don't withstand spinal mounts very well) we added an escort rule. The defender places escorts in the reserve and preassigns them to each core reserve ship. When you get a choice to engage an escored reserve ship, you must instead engage one of its predesignated escorts.

However this just re-creates the problem in case #1. What counts as a valid escort? So we had fire split randomly between the core reserve ship and its escorts, but this still doesn't fix the problem of what is a legally acceptable escort.

Did anyone actually fix this? Where the are high guard house rules? Google isn't particularly helpful here.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

That was a game? I thought it was just a new chargen for Navy careers.

 

[Anonymous]

That was a game? I thought it was just a new chargen for Navy careers.

I'm beginning to think that too. Hope we can fix it!

 

[phavoc]

HG wasn't a game in the sense that Traveller was. It was meant to allow players to simulate fleet engagements. Some people like building and then fighting with entire fleets.

The easiest fix to the rule is to allow reserve ships to engage if they can be engaged. Generally speaking, if you have a reserve of anything, it's not really capable of engaging the enemy until it moves forward in either a flanking pattern or to fill a hole in your own battle line.

If you go with the idea that reserves have long-ranged weaponry that might have the range, then so would (most likely) the enemy, thus your reserves aren't truly that and you can plan to engage with them.

 

[Anonymous]

The problem is that the reserve CAN'T be engaged, not that it can't shoot back if it is.

 

[phavoc]

The idea remains the same. If the reserve cannot be engaged, then it should not be able to engage itself. The exception would be carriers, who should not be on the battle line to begin with, and their "engagement" is just refueling/rearming.

 

[Anonymous]

No, I mean the problem is that the reserve CAN'T be engaged.

In any 'protect the X' scenario, how do you attack the X? ( in any realistic time frame )

 

[atpollard]

Perhaps I am not understanding something, but what happens if you simply eliminate the reserve from the game?
All ships are either in the line of battle, or not part of the battle at all.

 

[phavoc]

No, I mean the problem is that the reserve CAN'T be engaged.

In any 'protect the X' scenario, how do you attack the X? ( in any realistic time frame )

I'm still not seeing the problem. If you, as the attacker, are able to maneuver, and the defender is able to keep their line of battle between you and the reserve, and the reserve is able to maneuver, then the battle lines remain constant. To engage the reserve you must close the distance and destroy the line.

The reason the rule says you have to first eliminate the defender is the tactical idea that you would not expose yourself to enemy fire like that. Plus it would potentially put you between two opposing forces, which puts you at a disadvantage. Traveller generalizes a number of battle concepts, and this one, too, is generalized. Which is why it's in place. You also mentioned spinal mounts, and if you are running away (or towards something else) the front of your ship is pointed the wrong way to engage (free up-the-kilt shots from the enemies spinal mounts). Though again, Traveller generalizes such things, so weapon angles are very loosely coupled with reality. VERY loosely coupled.

Can't help you much with the "realistic time frame" option, as that is a variable that has to be addressed at the time of the scenario creation. Or else you toss it aside and simply allow each side to maneuver freely, and if the lines inter-penetrate while you pass the defender seeking the reserve you do combat at short range.

 

[Infojunky]

Well the quick answer to your dilemma is to pull out yet another GDW Game; Mayday. And use the the High Guard conversion in the back to run your games. It gives y'all the Maneuver element that is missing from the statistical exercise that is High Guard.

I have found breaking your fleet down into Squadrons or Maneuver Elements is a lot more playable than trying to do it ship by ship.... I also found that Using the 1/4 Light-second scale more satisfying than Mayday's 1 Light-second scale.

 

[simonh]

No, I mean the problem is that the reserve CAN'T be engaged.

In any 'protect the X' scenario, how do you attack the X? ( in any realistic time frame )

I'm still not seeing the problem. If you, as the attacker, are able to maneuver, and the defender is able to keep their line of battle between you and the reserve, and the reserve is able to maneuver, then the battle lines remain constant. To engage the reserve you must close the distance and destroy the line.

And Moppy's contention is that this can't be done using the RAW, given any competently designed defensive force, because you end up with a line that is unreasonably hard to kill while offering little to no practical offensive threat to the attacking force.

"I'm sorry, your five legions of armed and armoured swordsmen are unable to attack the otherwise undefended enemy wagon train, because they are still blocked by 5 shepherds with slings that are too agile for you to engage. Shame you didn't bring any missile weapons with you to effectively take out the skirmishers, but according to the rules there's nothing you can do. I guess you'll have to send your 10,000 soldiers back home. Better luck next season."

To be fair, this question would be better directed to the Classic Traveller forum on COTI as this is specifically a Mongoose Traveller forum.

Simon Hibbs

 

[phavoc]

I get that. He asked for a house rule workaround to the issue because the existing book rule makes things next to impossible to accomplish attacks on a reserve.

Which is why pointed out the fluidity of lines in space, as well as if your reserve can attack, it can be attacked. Else it is so far to the rear that you have to interpenetrate the enemies line to engage it, thus potentially putting yourself in a situation that you would be exposed to fire from front and rear as well as having your primary weapons pointed towards the reserve and being unable to engage the battle line.

 

[Reynard]

Been a long time so had a look in my HG.

Lines form: Battle line and Reserve. Reserve can't be targeted or fire at enemy battle line.

Launch of fighters and battleriders are at the Battle line. Carriers and Tenders do not launch from reserve.

Opposing Battle lines fire back and forth. Ships can Break off either to the Reserve or out of the battle. Enemy ships can attempt to Pursuit from either Battle line or Reserve and engage as a separate battle. Successful Break off lets ships to reach Reserve or leave battle. Pursuing ships return to their line.

Once ships on the Battle line can no longer fire offensive weapons the opposition can Breakthrough and fire on the Reserve in the FIRST turn of Breakthrough. Next turn the player fired on forms a new Battle line and Reserve.

Sound very straight forward. Essentially the opponent that broke through catch the enemy Reserve off guard momentarily.

 

[Condottiere]

That's why you have destroyers and fighters.

Over, under or around the battle line would the answer in real life, unless it becomes a wall.

If a target is in line of sight, and within range, it can be shot at. That might be countered by overlapping screens from the ships in front of it, or a tied in counter missile fleet defence.

Light combatants hanging around the edges of the wall are meant to prevent over, under or around option by opposing light forces.

 

[Anonymous]

Launch of fighters and battleriders are at the Battle line. Carriers and Tenders do not launch from reserve.

Nice idea! This rule is non-standard but there is a similar version of it in the JTAS errata, "Players/referee agree on whether a carrier/tender has time to launch before combat."

It does partly fix the problem but it still leaves open the problem of attacking transports, or moving a cripple to the reserve to perform repairs. It's also hard to justify why a reserve carrier can't launch its craft into the reserve, and then move them to the battle-line next round.

 

[Reynard]

Just state in your game you can launch small and big craft in the Reserve as per Launch and Recovery but they have to wait until the next turn's beginning Battle formation Step when you form a new Battle line. They can leave the battle line either in a subsequent Battle Formation Step or by Breaking off but are then subject to the Pursuit Step. They then must wait for the Launch and Recovery subset to rejoin a carrier or tender.

Or use Mongoose High Guard combat.

 

[Sigtrygg]

And now to the answer to the OP question.

Buy HG1e, in it you will find rules missing from HG2e.

For instance there is a rule that if you can spend 4 turns at short range you can break through the line of battle.

 

[Anonymous]

And now to the answer to the OP question. Buy HG1e, in it you will find rules missing from HG2e. For instance there is a rule that if you can spend 4 turns at short range you can break through the line of battle.

I do not see this rule in the 1979 version of CT: High Guard. However it's a good idea and may be the key to fixing this. We'll certainly try it out and experiment with verisons of it. Thank you.

 

[Sigtrygg]

It's a variation on the rule on page 40 for passing through the line of battle.

If you can spend 4 turns at short range to break through the line then it stands to reason that you can now attack the reserve.

 

[Reynard]

That's weird. Merely for being there four turns each side's ships now ignore the other side's line of battle to attack the Reserves OR it mean the one side attacking the Reserve is now a target for their enemy's Line of Battle AND Reserve forces on the second turn.