Decados fleet.

[Rick]

I have both a Decados and a Hawkwood fleet, starting playing a few games with each and a few things have become apparent. Firstly, the Decados fleet seems to be easy to use - get your opponent within range and fire arc and you can pummel them into submission fairly easily; easily enough that they would be lucky (in a 750 pt game) to get within boarding range. Secondly, in conjunction with blasters, EM pulse guns aren't the shield-breaking guns they should be, a blaster with multihit 2 and burnout does the same as a double burn weapon, against shields. The third thing is that, mainly because of the sheer number of multihit weapons, the Decados fleet has to be the hardest fleet to beat.

Has anyone had any different experiences from either playing with or against a Decados fleet?

 

[Greg Smith]

The thing that a Decados fleet suffers from is lack of range. They are nasty when they get close, but if the enemy is able to maintain distance, they will struggle.

 

[Stormrider]

If you think 24" is lack of range to any significance I can't help but laugh.

If Decados don't take the top 3 positions in the upcoming tournament then their players want taking to one side because the fleet is painfully overpowered.

Sorry, that's the best response I could put together without swearing

 

[Rick]

The thing that a Decados fleet suffers from is lack of range. They are nasty when they get close, but if the enemy is able to maintain distance, they will struggle.

That is an excellent theory Greg, but not one that will stand up easily. Against a Decados player that has even a basic grasp of tactics, you'll not be able to keep the range open long enough to inflict the number of losses needed to tip the balance in your favour. I know that the Hawkwood fleet is one of the best manouevre fleets in the game; but even so, would find it difficult without splitting the fleet and inviting defeat in detail. At 28", Hawkwood can snipe with missile launchers, but if they turn in to 24" to use laser broadsides, they will start getting pummeled by medium blasters at the same range. Any fleet that has to close the range to really do damage is going to be hurt badly within 24", and savaged within 16". The simple fact is that the Decados fleet, although lacking longer ranged weapons (over 24") below cruiser level, will dish out more damage than most opposing fleets deal out at up to 24", the usual firing range of most fleets.

At 750 pts, a Decados player really only need to get an opposing fleet within about 16" (slug gun range) for about 2 turns to cripple enough ships that it would be difficult to recover from. In a game yesterday, 1 destroyer broadside plus 1 frigate broadside (and turrets) was crippling or destroying a frigate each turn.

 

[Stormrider]

A fun example would be pitching a Decados destroyer against a Li Halan CRUISER (double the points) and find that they are fairly evenly matched. Send 2 Destroyers at that Cruiser and it's a whitewash.

For anyone wanting to play Decados, here's now to win nearly every battle you'll ever play... Destroyers and Frigates, mix/match them, turn sideways, pound away. If anyone gets near you, burn the dice you are using and possibly your copy of the rulebook, because it should never happen.

<-- serious rant mode detected

 

[Clanger]

So Stormrider, you turning up with a Decados Fleet to take 1st Prize on the Tourney showing everyone how Decados is number 1 :wink:

The Decados Mantis is outranged by the Hawkwood Hornet and Al -Malik Spider by 4 " with 2AD Guided Slow Missiles. It is equal in range with the Hazat Scorpion. The best is the Li Halan Iskati with an extra 4" range with 5AD lasers.

The Decados Tupok'ta effectively has 18" combat range on slug guns, which are nasty. Ever other Destroyer in every other fleet out ranges it and can bring weapons to bear.

The Decados Grigori is out ranged by the Hawkwood Vladimir in Turrets and broadsides. The Hazat Canai outranges in Turrets. The Al - Malik Moriah out ranges in Turrets. The Li - Halan in turrets and broadsides out range it.

So the Decados ships (just took 3) are good at short - mid range. Long range there are ships in other fleets which out range them and initally have the advantage in opening Salvo. So Greg is correct by saying most Fleets can stay at range and manauver to keep out of Decados weapons range.

Not saying that the Decados are a rubbish fleet they are good, but not the be all and end all in the fleets.

 

[Clanger]

Take into consideration as well Hawkwood, Hazat and Al-Malik have Scouts which can give redirects. Making those fleets a better chance to score hits.

Also the Al- Malik ignore the Shields with their weapons of choice. On top of that probably re-directed as well.

 

[Stormrider]

Clanger - I would love to, sadly I have a Hazat fleet. I chose them because I like the idea of boarding. In retrospect I find that don't have the speed or armour to survive long enough to grapple anything and that Li-Halan are about the only viable boarding fleet.

Decados though have roughly double the firepower of the other fleets for the loss of 4" top range (everything on the Mantis is 24"... in a 1000pt game I'm just plain take 10 of them) and if you think range should make any difference by turn 3 to a Decados player with a clue you've forgotten we're not playing on a limitless board. At which point a 750pt fleet will be killing 2 frigates or 1 destroyer per turn.

In short, give me a decados fleet and I will show you quite happily, until then if an opponent brings on to the table I'll be conceding on turn 1.

 

[Clanger]

Stormrider a Decados Destroyer would not have the range to take out the Maru Cruiser before it suffers quite a bit of damage

Before you could get in 18" range of its Slug guns. You will have withered fire from 6 AD Multi Hit 2 Accurate Precise Lasers for about 3 - 4 turns, 3AD Multi Hit 3 Blasters for 2 - 3 turns and 3AD of Double Burn EM pulse Guns for 1 - 2 turns. And that is before you can fire.

Also that is assuming the Maru Cruiser is stationery and you rushing head long into the fire fight.

 

[Rick]

In actual fact, I was the Decados player, Clanger. Stormrider was on the receiving end of the damage. What you say about the individual ships is quite correct in theory, but in practice is very, very difficult to achieve. Don't forget that only a small minority of weapons from most other ships outrange the Decados' guns and it wouldn't take much for a Decados player to get into range. The multihit trait is a very difficult thing to deal with when you're facing a fleet of them.

 

[Clanger]

I would take the Hazat over a Decados Fleet any day.

1) The Hazat have an excellent Scout for those lovely redirects. IMO the best scout in the game (CBD and fire)
2) The Scorpion Frigate about equal in firepower when you consider the accurate trait and possible redirects. An extra 45 turn and more troops.
3) The Xerxes is a scary monster Galliot. Good close broadsides and has marauders.
4) The Manticore has an extra 1 extra 45 turn. Initally can get a redirected turreted weapons in for a turn or two.
5) The Canai Cruiser has nice turret range, but low range broadsides also more troops and marauders.
6) The Adonis is a good ship at range.

 

[Stormrider]

I would take the Hazat over a Decados Fleet any day.

1) The Hazat have an excellent Scout for those lovely redirects. IMO the best scout in the game (CBD and fire)
2) The Scorpion Frigate about equal in firepower when you consider the accurate trait and possible redirects. An extra 45 turn and more troops.
Indeed, 7 hits to 12 is pretty equal especially when the first 3 are chewed up on shields and those troops are brilliant when they survive the 4-5 turns it takes to get into position to use them
3) The Xerxes is a scary monster Galliot. Good close broadsides and has marauders.
And can be killed in 1 turn by easily 750pts of Decados ships
4) The Manticore has an extra 1 extra 45 turn. Initally can get a redirected turreted weapons in for a turn or two.
Has the same range as Mantis' and deals far less damage per point cost and has to broadside negating any chance of boarding
5) The Canai Cruiser has nice turret range, but low range broadsides also more troops and marauders.
Choose range or boarding, can't have both and for 400pts neither is stellar
6) The Adonis is a good ship at range.

Please... give me a 750pt Hazat fleet that will potentially compete with Decados... on second thoughts... I'm going to walk away for a while, far away...

 

[Rick]

I am so sorry you said that Clanger. As it happens, I ate 2 Hazat fleets yesterday - first game lost 2 ships to enemy fire to the near total destruction of the enemy fleet and the second game was a replay except that the only ship I lost wandered off the edge of the board to escape an exploding Hazat frigate.

The scout is great, but redirects aren't THAT powerful.
The scorpion frigate dies in 1 turn, the xerxes in 2 if it's careful.

The point is not that I'm exulting in having won, but that I was EMBARRASSED by how easily I won, Clanger. If there are any real tactics to use against the Decados, please pass them around, 'cos I won't play my Decados fleet if it wins this easily - I want a challenge in a game.

 

[katadder]

hawkwood are actually top dogs at high level due to precise being better than devastating. they have burn out on all weapons apart from missiles which are slow and guided. they have precise and accurate on their lasers. they also out range the decados.
decados are a close second then followed by li-halan for damage output.
al-marik do well against fleets of hull 4 or less but struggle once ships reach hull 5. and hazat just relies on boarding as their weapons do nothing special

 

[Stormrider]

hawkwood are actually top dogs at high level due to precise being better than devastating. they have burn out on all weapons apart from missiles which are slow and guided. they have precise and accurate on their lasers. they also out range the decados.
decados are a close second then followed by li-halan for damage output.
al-marik do well against fleets of hull 4 or less but struggle once ships reach hull 5. and hazat just relies on boarding as their weapons do nothing special

I agree with this except about Hawkwood being better than Decados. I'd put Hawkwood even with Li-Halan (they're pretty similar in my mind) with Decados on top. The reasons being:

RANGE: If you have larger ranger with turret mounted weapons AND equal or higher speed AND lots of table space you can successfully nibble away at your opponent, maybe do a small amount of damage while running like hell. As soon as you run out of table and get forced into a corner your range advantage is moot and firepower is king.

BOARDING: Extended from range it's clear anyone with larger range is avoiding getting close to anyone with smaller range, so boarding is only suitable if you are outranged (otherwise keep shooting) and getting close enough to shoot (gaining an extra 4-10") is bad enough, gaining the further 16-24" to board takes a lot of time being shot at. Worth noting, Hazat have the best troops in a boarding action and those troops are 100% defensive because the hazat ships are too slow to catch an opponent who knows what they are doing (cripple the galliots, speed 12, first and maintain range on the rest, speed 8 at best).

So, when's the 2nd edition re-write due? lol

 

[Rick]

Stormrider - re-read katadders post.
Katadder - you could be right, but that switch to Hawkwood being on top would probably have to come at Cruiser or Dreadnaught level. I fear that the Decados destroyer and frigate may be a touch cheap for their capabilities. The Lucretzia and Reaper are about spot on for their points, in my opinion.

 

[katadder]

well lets look at the dreads. the hawkwood dread can sit broadside on from the start as the decados dread needs to close within 15" to use those turreted meson guns. the hawkwood dread can start picking away from 36" out and you come into its best range after one move from there at 28" with the decados dread. you then have to suffer at least one more broadside before you can move into your own effective range and then you only have 3 turrets against the full broadside.
and if you do go broadside on from that range work out the numbers. they are very similar hits but precise versus devastating. precise does twice the crits, dev does double the crit effect. but precise shots cannot get bulkheads.

its a very similar story between the 2 fleets cruisers.

its only at destroyer level that decados increase in firepower over hawkwood but the hawkwood ship is 1/3 faster and twice as manouvrable and still outranges the decados so will try and stay in front or rear arcs of the decados ship.

frigates its interesting to see what would happen there. if the decados can keep a broadside on the hawkwood and in range it should win. but again the hawkwood has superior range, speed and turns.

so on all this hawkwood is my winner. decados is fairly close behind.

 

[katadder]

true rick the frigates and destroyers do make for more interesting battles. its why hawkwood has scouts and decados doesnt to support these battles.
but at frigate level thats where al-malik comes into its own and beats everyone else hands down.

the other thing to remember at frigate and destroyer level of course is its a fleet game. after one hawkwood destroyer has shot your decados one the decados shields are all down for the rest of the hawkwood fleets precise guns. return fire may do some damage to the hawkwood but he keeps his shields from all but the EM pulse guns so requires 2 dec destroyers to keep the shields down on a hawkwood one. then the attacks are straight not precise or anything else.

 

[Rick]

Umm - what can I say, lol!
I agree that the fun is around the destroyer and frigate level - and 1 on 1 you would be correct - however, in a fleet action with ships covering each others rear arcs, it's less simple. I still think in a fleet action, I could field less points than my opponent and still win handily, but I would be more than eager to be proven wrong! :twisted:

 

[katadder]

well i would like to prove you wrong on that count then i think hawkwood even at equal points can take decados in the smaller games and as pointed out in the larger games thats a given anyway.

in a decados fight you are always going to be outgunned on the way in anyway as majority guns are to the side so hawkwood get at least one free salvo off which is probably a broadside one. and if played well hawkwood can get a missile salvo off a turn earlier too.