Navy Logistics

[MonsterX]

Scaling things back to closer ice sources... it's still going to be tricky to cover an outer system asteroid belt (which is likely to have a high ice percentage).

For argument's sake and simplicity, let's say there's a belt at "close gas giant" range - around 600 million km further out (4AU). Even 6G takes over two days to travel that distance. The belt would be about 25AU in circumference.

Detection is now a matter of half an hour, not weeks, and intercepting forces can be dispatched to arrive mere days after they arrive. If there are interceptors based in that belt zone they may be closer and be able to arrive much quicker, although space travel can be deceptive there because of acceleration and deceleration. It takes 6G nearly a day to travel only 100 million km, for example.

If you had 25 rapid response stations in such a belt separated by 1AU, they could provide about 18h to intercept cover using 6G SDBs and fighters. I think that might get you there, although it depends a lot on how rapidly they can turn ice into jump fuel. But it is at least practical to look at.

This gets you to where you can maybe intercept someone before they can refuel, but there will be a problem of force concentration. The defender has to scatter forces all over everywhere to be able to do this, while the attacker can concentrate everything at one point around the refueling source. Of course, a main force in the inner system would not be far behind, so the goal of the 6G interceptors might be just to find out more about what is there. Which suggests they might be better off not decelerating - which lets them get there faster.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Maybe we can short cut all this somewhat. What published sources do we have for extensive tanker type craft in the Imperial Navy orders of battle?

If there are none then it is clear that is not how the IN operates.

On the other hand we do know that IN vessels carry sufficient 50 ton support craft (at least in the MGT2 designs) to make refuelling operations possible such that they can skim or uplift from planetary sources to refuel in under a day. We also know that refined fuel is not really necessary if you have decent engineers and astrogators and a properly maintained ship (something I assert is a given for IN).

If you use this same logic and apply it to economics in Traveller, your whole theory falls apart. We only have rules for spec trading and passenger/cargo shipping rates, so by your logic, that must be how all of Charted Space operates. In other threads, this has been proven to not be the case. Traveller seems to be famous for, "That's not how it really works! That is only for players! NPCs do not use the rules in the books!" So, I am not sure that the reality of Traveller and how it is written supports your argument.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Time doesn't matter. Once the fleet has spent a week or two moving, the intercepting fleet wouldn't even be able to detect them on sensors from so far away. They would for all intents and purposes, just be gone.

Edit - Even including the penalty for being too far out from the star.

Not with the reduced thrust that was just mentioned outside 1000 diameters. Which I had forgotten.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I intend to invade system A.

Pre-invasion use "merchant ships" with rather impressive but hidden passive sensors to gather as much data as possible.

Step 1 - use stealth jump scouts to jump into the oort cloud (by the way the Oort cloud may be a lot larger than so far mentioned, current research suggests Sol's oort cloud is as much as 3 light years distant, as Rinku mentioned)
Their job is to locate a comets, or better yet several comets.

Step 2 - use a stealth jump refinery/tender/station ship to jump to the comets and manufacture fuel and drop tanks.

Step 3 - battlefleet jumps to support station, launches drones towards the target world that will arrive in one week going very fast - these are active sensor drones and noise makers. Battlefleet refuels and uses drop tanks to jump insystem. Support staion stealth jumps to back up comet.

Step 4 - drones arrive and start active sensor scans, conduct EW, battlefleet arrives and receives data from drones.

Fight.

Retreat is to station to refuel, repair and rearm.

This is a winner. How would one defend against it?

 

[Terry Mixon]

If you use this same logic and apply it to economics in Traveller, your whole theory falls apart. We only have rules for spec trading and passenger/cargo shipping rates, so by your logic, that must be how all of Charted Space operates. In other threads, this has been proven to not be the case. Traveller seems to be famous for, "That's not how it really works! That is only for players! NPCs do not use the rules in the books!" So, I am not sure that the reality of Traveller and how it is written supports your argument.

Huh? Exconomocs? Maybe I’m not awake enough but I don’t see the flaw in what he’s proposing. Or how your comment relates to it. By chance did you respond to the wrong post?

 

[MasterGwydion]

Huh? Exconomocs? Maybe I’m not awake enough but I don’t see the flaw in what he’s proposing. Or how your comment relates to it. By chance did you respond to the wrong post?

He seemed to be using the theory that if it doesn't exist in the published books, then it can't work that way. He said this in regard to very large tanker ships. This was the same argument that I made for trade in Traveller. The consensus seemed to be that, eventhough how NPCs trade is not covered in the books, that does not mean that NPCs trade the same as PCs. So therefore, not having huge tankers in published books doesn't mean that the Imperial Navy doesn't use them. Lack of evidence isn't the same as lack of existence.

That was the point that I was trying to make. Perhaps I failed to explain Myself clearly. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Terry Mixon]

He seemed to be using the theory that if it doesn't exist in the published books, then it can't work that way. He said this in regard to very large tanker ships. This was the same argument that I made for trade in Traveller. The consensus seemed to be that, eventhough how NPCs trade is not covered in the books, that does not mean that NPCs trade the same as PCs. So therefore, not having huge tankers in published books doesn't mean that the Imperial Navy doesn't use them. Lack of evidence isn't the same as lack of existence.

That was the point that I was trying to make. Perhaps I failed to explain Myself clearly. Sorry for the confusion.

I got you. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

[Sigtrygg]

With regards to canon support ships for the IN, you just have to know where to look:

"TankRon: Tanker squadrons are special-purpose units dictated by the need for Imperial Navy vessels to travel farther than their fuel tankage will allow. TankRons carry large quantities of fuel and are positioned to refuel other squadrons as they cross territory which would not otherwise provide fuel resources for them."

"Tankers and support ships are always necessary in the Imperial Navy. Originally, the navy produced ships for two separate functions: tanker (TF11/-12) and resupply (TM-11/-12) At tech level 13, the TF-13 was improved to create the Dromedary TT-13, a combined tanker and resupply ship. Although the TT-14 and TT-15 were produced in prototype form, they did not show sufficient advantage over the TT-13 and have not been produced in quantity.
The TZ-15 is a special-purpose ship: the Rift tanker designed to support operations in the sparse territory of the Rifts."

"Auxiliaries are supposed to be the noncombatants of the fleet. They linger on the fringes of the battle area and resupply the fighting ships with fuel, missiles, and provisions. Many are not armed, but experience says some auxiliaries do face combat and need to be capable of at least defending themselves."

"TankRon (Tanker Squadron) While most squadrons contain one or more tankers, TankRons are specialist units intended to increase the mobility of the Imperial fleets. A TankRon consists of several tankers, plus a cruiser acting as flagship for a group of escort vessels, transports, couriers and auxiliaries. Typically, a TankRon is commanded by a rear-admiral or commodore."

"Logistics and Supply Vessels - Without logistics and supply vessels, the navy would grind to a halt within days. These unglamorous and
often-overlooked vessels carry fuel, missiles, spares, tools, food… and everything else the fleet requires. Horribly vulnerable and under-armed, supply ships are regularly sent into dangerous areas with an inadequate escort.

Fleet Logistics Vessel: The fleet logistics vessel is a general-purpose supply and transport ship designed to accompany a task force. Not only capable of transporting a variety of vital supplies, this ship has extensive machine and electronics shops, and is capable of fabricating necessary spares on-site, greatly increasing the fleet’s capability to keep ships on deployment. They are lightly armed for selfdefence and carry a number of small craft including specialised repair tugs. These ships are often pressed into service as repair ships, and more recent classes are designed with this capability in mind."

"Tanker/Resupply Ship: Most logistics ships of the Imperial Navy are either tankers – which skim, purify, and transport liquid hydrogen fuel for the line ships – or resupply ships, which carry ‘dry stores’ that can be anything from missiles to boots to coffee beans.

Dromedary: A dromedary is a combination tanker/supply ship. Dromedaries often accompany small task forces where the deployment of several support vessels would be wasteful."

 

[Lordroel]

- Tankers (not everyone has the time or capability to skim and/or refine fuel)

That is if space ships need refueling.

 

[Condottiere]

1. How many iceballs are there within a parsec that are large enough to refuel an invading task force, thousands?

2. Anything that requires a quarter parsec microjump, can just as well jump from the next parsec.

3. Espionage and discrete monitoring of nearby systems should tell naval intelligence if an invasion force is on the way.

4. Going by Taiwan, it's more of a case actually constructing and assembling appropriate vessels, followed by political and diplomatic factors, primarily.

5. Secondarily, if the military has the actual capability, and/or doesn't mutiny.

6. Sure, the invader can prepare by sending in spy ships, to try and construct depots insystem, or sabotage infrastructure.

7. As well as plant agents.

8. It seems more of a case that the defending system has enough deterrence, military or otherwise, to dissuade an invasion attempt.

9. And, if not, enough time to prepare one.

 

[PsiTraveller]

Quick question. I've just looked through the Handbook, Highguard and Starship Operators Manual. Where is the section on how far away a ship can be seen Jumping into a system? If a ship Jumps into the Oort cloud will they be seen instantly?

 

[CordwainerFish]

Where is the section on how far away a ship can be seen Jumping into a system?

If there ain't no such animal, I'd be tempted to cons one up by making ass/u/mptions about magnitude of Jump flash as a function of ship tonnage and/or Jump distance, putting it in a ziplock bag with the inverse square law, and shaking vigorously. I don't need that temptation...

If a ship Jumps into the Oort cloud will they be seen instantly?

If Jump flash does not propagate at c, we've got problems - see the founding ass/um/ption of Charted Space.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The flash can't travel any faster than c, so it depends how close you are.

If a ship jumps in a light month away to harvest a comet it will take a month for the flash signal to reach you - and since it spreads out with the square of the distance I doubt if you would be able to detect it over background emissions.

I will have to check but I don't recall what the jump flash actually is with regards to the electromagnetic spectrum or even if it is electromagnetic radiation at all - is it spread out over the whole spectrum? Is it most noticeable at certain frequencies? research needed...

in the meantime assume the jump flash is 1 gigawatt...

the intensity of a 1 gigawatt signal at a distance of 1 light month would be approximately 1.31 × 10⁻²³ W/m².

 

[Arkathan]

The signal propagates at the speed of light.
HG'22 pg 26
Over 5,000,000km. Nearest 10k of ship volume.

 

[Terry Mixon]

The signal propagates at the speed of light.
HG'22 pg 26
Over 5,000,000km. Nearest 10k of ship volume.

Thanks for finding this. I looked but couldn't locate it.

The exact quote:

Far (over 5,000,000km): At these ranges, sensors can spot the signature of ships making jumps (inbound or out) and can determine only whether a contact is a ship or other similar-sized astronomical body. In either case, sensors are only able to determine the size of the contact to the nearest 10,000 tons.

So, no stated maximum range or drop off in detection strength. Also, there is a jump flash both incoming and outgoing.

Honestly, that means there would be a ton of jump flashes from all across the heavens after this long. There would need to be multiple detectors to triangulate them or that jump flash from Capital might be mistaken for one in the system. Realistically, there needs to be a drop-off in strength that makes detection outside a system impossible.

 

[EccentRick]

In the Great Rift books the Gravitational Analysis Suite, to look at extremely weak gravitic phenomena, is needed to find jump emergences at distance. It has an 'Automatic Detection Range' of 1 parsec, then a Difficult Electronics (sensors) check with DM-1 for each additional parsec.

So, a drop-off that needs specialized research equipment at 3 light-years. Not sure what the curve looks like for 'normal' sensors.

 

[Terry Mixon]

In the Great Rift books the Gravitational Analysis Suite, to look at extremely weak gravitic phenomena, is needed to find jump emergences at distance. It has an 'Automatic Detection Range' of 1 parsec, then a Difficult Electronics (sensors) check with DM-1 for each additional parsec.

So, a drop-off that needs specialized research equipment at 3 light-years. Not sure what the curve looks like for 'normal' sensors.

Thanks. That might be a clue that normal sensors aren't up to the task of finding jump signatures outside the system they are in, which would make things much simpler.

There is one interesting snippet in there.

The ship will also automatically detect any jump emergence within one parsec at the time the gravity waves reach the analysis suite.

It uses gravity waves to detect the jump signature. If so, it's not really a flash at all.

 

[swordtart]

With regards to canon support ships for the IN, you just have to know where to look:

Plenty of evidence there for dedicated tankers, thank you for tracking all that down. I was piecing it together using google-fu on the source books but knowing the keyword helps.

My question was more how they fit into the Orbat. I get that tanker squadrons exist, it was more how they operate or whether we had any canon examples of tankers from which we could extrapolate. The existence of a huge tanker with jump-4 for example would tend to indicate they run with the fleet.

In MGT2 HG for example we have:

"Tanker Squadrons (TankRons) are mostly composed of huge fuel tankers, which carry the millions of tons of hydrogen fuel needed by a jump-capable fleet. As such vessels are very vulnerable, a TankRon is normally led by a cruiser and accompanied by numerous armed escorts."

This fits with some of your sources that the TankRon has organic protection from which I infer that they are not embedded in the fleet (as otherwise surely the fleet would provide the protection they need). That to me says they are more likely deployed away from the fleet but in reach (possibly an emergency Jump-1 away).

 

[Condottiere]

You need energy to rip open a dimensional doorway.

It spits you out almost automically.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Then where does the energy for the jump flash come from?