Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Bleed over from jumpspace?
Navy Logistics
- Thread starter Sageryne
- Start date
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
The initial flash could either come from the dimensional rift, and/or ye jump drive.
The one on exit, would assume significant radiation from jumpspace, that is visible, but has no effect on the unprotested crew or starship.
I'm more inclined to believe it's gravitational waves rippling out.
The one on exit, would assume significant radiation from jumpspace, that is visible, but has no effect on the unprotested crew or starship.
I'm more inclined to believe it's gravitational waves rippling out.
Arkathan
Emperor Mongoose
The ripple in space-time from ripping it open and slamming it closed behind you? Like a diver going into a pool? Perhaps, instead of a flash, it's a splash...
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Jump splash. I like it.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Quantum fields in the jump dimension leaking into our universe and decaying into... electromagnetic radiation? excitations in the "real universe" quantum foam?
a ship propagating from jump space is introducing mass to spacetime where there was none, so gravitational ripples are likely...
a ship propagating from jump space is introducing mass to spacetime where there was none, so gravitational ripples are likely...
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
“I have detected,” he said, “disturbances in the wash.”
“The wash?” said Arthur.
“The space-time wash,” said Ford.
Arthur nodded, and then cleared his throat.
“Are we talking about,” he asked cautiously, “some sort of Vogon laundromat, or what are we talking about?”
“Eddies,” said Ford, “in the space-time continuum.”
“Ah,” nodded Arthur, “is he? Is he?” He pushed his hands into the pocket of his dressing gown and looked knowledgeably into the distance.
“What?” said Ford.
“Er, who,” said Arthur, “is Eddy, then, exactly?”
Ford looked angrily at him.
“Will you listen?” he snapped.
“I have been listening,” said Arthur, “but I’m not sure it’s helped.”
“The wash?” said Arthur.
“The space-time wash,” said Ford.
Arthur nodded, and then cleared his throat.
“Are we talking about,” he asked cautiously, “some sort of Vogon laundromat, or what are we talking about?”
“Eddies,” said Ford, “in the space-time continuum.”
“Ah,” nodded Arthur, “is he? Is he?” He pushed his hands into the pocket of his dressing gown and looked knowledgeably into the distance.
“What?” said Ford.
“Er, who,” said Arthur, “is Eddy, then, exactly?”
Ford looked angrily at him.
“Will you listen?” he snapped.
“I have been listening,” said Arthur, “but I’m not sure it’s helped.”
The undisputable part was that you would want to have tenders. The rest of the post as why fuel tankers are a problem in the setting. Namely, the fuel demands are extreme.
The dromedary has to get to where you want to go and it has to be able to do so in wartime. Which means it needs escorts or some other safety feature. And it is problematic to send it forward of your fleet, both because you don't want to risk alerting your opponent and because it could get destroyed. The aforementioned Oort cloud stealth refinery might work if you have that much operational lead time.
The economic problem is whether the massive tonnage of fleet tankers needed to support a fleet (ie you have more tonnage of dromedaries than warships) is worthwhile compared to the risks of conducting High Guard operations in hostile systems. If you are better off with the tankers being guardships while you refuel by skimming, then you aren't going to have many dromedaries *for fuel*. You'll want them for consumables, missiles, etc. But that's a much easier transport requirement than the issue with jump fuel.
The cost to transport fuel is so absurdly high that Charted Space navies are back to draft animal logistics, where your transport consumes a large portion of the payload they are transporting. Oilers work IRL because they can carry massive amounts of fuel compared to their own needs. And it doesn't hurt that the largest vessels are nuclear and don't need refueling at sea.
I'm away from my books at the moment, so I can't check how much fuel the canon dromedary carries as cargo, but I doubt it makes a dent in a fleet's refueling needs.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
As a military commander, you want options.
In theory, you should arrive at a hot landing zone with enough reserve fuel to jump out, in case the outcome doesn't look favourable.
You could set up a staging area two parsecs away, and have an additional twenty percent volume still full of fuel.
Refuelling in full observation of the enemy means that you've sacrificed momentum, giving your opponent the opportunity to organize a defence, assuming such assets exist, within the window of opportunity.
Assuming that reduces the ratio of forces from a likely one to three advantage to one and a half, you might prefer to roll the dice and jump within a hundred diameters.
In theory, you should arrive at a hot landing zone with enough reserve fuel to jump out, in case the outcome doesn't look favourable.
You could set up a staging area two parsecs away, and have an additional twenty percent volume still full of fuel.
Refuelling in full observation of the enemy means that you've sacrificed momentum, giving your opponent the opportunity to organize a defence, assuming such assets exist, within the window of opportunity.
Assuming that reduces the ratio of forces from a likely one to three advantage to one and a half, you might prefer to roll the dice and jump within a hundred diameters.
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EccentRick
Banded Mongoose
The only one I'm currently aware of is the Shuigabumudkhar-class, from the book Behind the Claw.
50,000 Tons, J4, 4G (claimed as fleet standard for such assets), the book (so, before verification) provides 10,000 tons of 'additional' fuel (on top if its own J4 +9 weeks of 20,600 tons) and 4,879 of cargo (presumably including its own SU storage).
Refines 5,000 tons of fuel a day (seems small to me, but I haven't taken time to analyze)
Has an UNREP System for 1,000 tons/hour.
The description box includes the following excerpts:
"The term 'dromedary' is given to support vessels that carry both fuel and dry stores, typically used to support small squadron or task force operations where a fleet tanker and auxiliaries would be wasteful. Dromedaries are inefficient when used to support major fleets but are often pressed into that role."
"The Shuigabumudkhar-class is large enough to resupply destroyers but is not sufficient for cruiser or capital ship operations."
Even 1:1 to prohibitive. 2 to 1 is laughable.EccentRick
Banded Mongoose
1:1 seems impossible.
The description did say this dromedary was sized for destroyers, not capital ships.
Skimming HG2022, we seem to have a dromedary that is 10 (Fleet Escort - 5,000 tons) or 16 (Destoryer, 3,000 tons) to 50 (Destroyer Escort - 1,000) times larger than the ship(s) it is supporting. Here we have a Cruiser-size ship intended to support Destroyers. If the ratio holds, then it seems that every BattRon of Dreadnoughts is looking for 2,000,000 - 10,000,000 support ships.
So, I'm back to my initial quandary: Fuel carriers become so much larger (and bigger targets) than the ships they support, or trade size for numbers and become so numerous a % of the hulls of a fleet, are they functionally useful for regular fleet travel or do they get reserved for specialized appearances like bridging a jump gap to allow an 'unexpected' route of travel?
The description did say this dromedary was sized for destroyers, not capital ships.
Skimming HG2022, we seem to have a dromedary that is 10 (Fleet Escort - 5,000 tons) or 16 (Destoryer, 3,000 tons) to 50 (Destroyer Escort - 1,000) times larger than the ship(s) it is supporting. Here we have a Cruiser-size ship intended to support Destroyers. If the ratio holds, then it seems that every BattRon of Dreadnoughts is looking for 2,000,000 - 10,000,000 support ships.
So, I'm back to my initial quandary: Fuel carriers become so much larger (and bigger targets) than the ships they support, or trade size for numbers and become so numerous a % of the hulls of a fleet, are they functionally useful for regular fleet travel or do they get reserved for specialized appearances like bridging a jump gap to allow an 'unexpected' route of travel?
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
1. Jump factor/three highly technologized, thirty percent efficient.
2. Dehydrated water.
3. Condensed hydrogen.
2. Dehydrated water.
3. Condensed hydrogen.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
People are still not looking on the right place, I thought the quotes I provided would give some clues.
Anyway this may help:
TF 11 500kt displacement, J2, fuel transfer 300,000, cargo 21,000
TF 12 500kt displacement, J2, fuel transfer 300,000, cargo 8,000
TF 13 500kt displacement, J3, fuel transfer 300,000, cargo 1,000
TF 14 500kt displacement, J3, fuel transfer 300,000, cargo 4,000
TF 12 500kt displacement, J3, fuel transfer 300,000, cargo 8,000
TT 13 500kt displacement, J3, fuel transfer 300,000, cargo 80,000
TZ 15 700kt displacement, J3, fuel transfer 300,000, cargo 280,000
take these with a huge pinch of salt, many of the above fuel transfer numbers require the tanker to use its own jump fuel (and the designs are very suspect <hint, hint>
every ship is streamlined, they can scoop and refine fuel
some of the above have to use their own jump fuel to achieve the transfer above, and thus must refuel after tending to the fleet.
Anyway this may help:
TF 11 500kt displacement, J2, fuel transfer 300,000, cargo 21,000
TF 12 500kt displacement, J2, fuel transfer 300,000, cargo 8,000
TF 13 500kt displacement, J3, fuel transfer 300,000, cargo 1,000
TF 14 500kt displacement, J3, fuel transfer 300,000, cargo 4,000
TF 12 500kt displacement, J3, fuel transfer 300,000, cargo 8,000
TT 13 500kt displacement, J3, fuel transfer 300,000, cargo 80,000
TZ 15 700kt displacement, J3, fuel transfer 300,000, cargo 280,000
take these with a huge pinch of salt, many of the above fuel transfer numbers require the tanker to use its own jump fuel (and the designs are very suspect <hint, hint>
every ship is streamlined, they can scoop and refine fuel
some of the above have to use their own jump fuel to achieve the transfer above, and thus must refuel after tending to the fleet.
MonsterX
Emperor Mongoose
Tankers for refueling a fleet become absurd if you assume: 1. the jump numbers are high 2. entire fleets of large ships are being refueled 3. all the fuel in question being carried through jump. Under these three assumptions, the tankers need to be in the same size range or bigger than the ships they refuel, (and preferably much, much bigger, or more numerous, since they'll want to jump away too). This sounds really bad, but it is not quite as bad as it sounds since tankers are much cheaper than warships. Having them really increases the number of places your ships could suddenly appear to attack the enemy, so it could actually be worth it. However, it is a large commitment of resources to tanker ships. It could work and be really useful sometimes. Sometimes it isn't worth it. It depends on the situation.
If you relax the assumptions, tankers sudden become clearly sensible to have in many situations. If the jump number is low, for example J2, then tankers really make a lot of sense. Or, even if the fleet has J4, if the tanker is only expected to give each ship J1 of fuel (so they can retreat if needed), then that requires a lot less fuel, and you only needs a more manageable number of tankers to do it.
You might also expect sometimes that a fleet will only want to quickly refuel a certain % of the ships, so they can jump onward and surprise the enemy before the enemy knows they are coming, so this would require having a large tanker capacity relative to the number of ships jumping onward, but not necessarily relative to the total size of the fleet.
Tankers also have in-system use, since on jumping into a new system, they can go and get the fuel, refine it and then take it to the warships, while your warfleet starts engaging the enemy. This means your warships don't have to choose between refueling first, which gives the enemy time to get ready, and attacking with fuel tanks empty, they can head straight for battle and the fuel will come to them.
If you relax the assumptions, tankers sudden become clearly sensible to have in many situations. If the jump number is low, for example J2, then tankers really make a lot of sense. Or, even if the fleet has J4, if the tanker is only expected to give each ship J1 of fuel (so they can retreat if needed), then that requires a lot less fuel, and you only needs a more manageable number of tankers to do it.
You might also expect sometimes that a fleet will only want to quickly refuel a certain % of the ships, so they can jump onward and surprise the enemy before the enemy knows they are coming, so this would require having a large tanker capacity relative to the number of ships jumping onward, but not necessarily relative to the total size of the fleet.
Tankers also have in-system use, since on jumping into a new system, they can go and get the fuel, refine it and then take it to the warships, while your warfleet starts engaging the enemy. This means your warships don't have to choose between refueling first, which gives the enemy time to get ready, and attacking with fuel tanks empty, they can head straight for battle and the fuel will come to them.
Can you cite references (book and page number) for these as it would help people to look "in the right place". Some people may not have all the referenced documents and others will not consider previous editions canon. As you also seem to doubt the numbers it might help people decide which way they wish to interpret them.
When you say fuel transfer do you mean that is the payload fuel capacity, since it seems odd that such wide variation in overall tonnage and cargo results in the same fuel transfer figure for all of them? If it is going to have much of that fuel missing as it needed to jump in then it will need to skim before refuelling anything and as the onboard fuel tenders can do that just as easily for the capital ship, it contraindicates travelling with the fleet to refuel them. That Jump 2/3 is to get it fast to a suitable intermediate system where it can spend time refuelling ready to refuel a fleet that arrives there
boggo2300
Cosmic Mongoose
Looks like Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium to me (the "designs are very suspect" line adds to that conclusion
)Determining the effectiveness of tankers requires determining what sort of operations you think they are supporting. Batrons have enormous fuel demands. If you are jumping into a system that isn't hostile and has a gas giant, you don't need tankers. If you are jumping into a hostile system that is less than your operational range, you don't need tankers.
If your fleet is a lot slower than the Imperial is supposed to be, then that helps with the tanker situation. Or, if your ships are J4 and operationally you aren't actually making J4 jumps, then your ships carry enough fuel already without needing tankers since they can J2 back out after a J2 jump.
If you are making a short staging jump to somewhere without a gas giant, tankers may be viable.
If you are expecting to make long range jumps into hostile territory, tankers become unviable because they can't carry enough fuel to reload your fleet and escape themselves. Even if you reload and then send them to the gas giant to refuel while your fleet engages, you have to give them substantial escorts because of SDBs and the equivalent.
If your fleet is a lot slower than the Imperial is supposed to be, then that helps with the tanker situation. Or, if your ships are J4 and operationally you aren't actually making J4 jumps, then your ships carry enough fuel already without needing tankers since they can J2 back out after a J2 jump.
If you are making a short staging jump to somewhere without a gas giant, tankers may be viable.
If you are expecting to make long range jumps into hostile territory, tankers become unviable because they can't carry enough fuel to reload your fleet and escape themselves. Even if you reload and then send them to the gas giant to refuel while your fleet engages, you have to give them substantial escorts because of SDBs and the equivalent.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
If we use the canonical example of the Azhantis, then you carry the capacity to refuel with you, if rather limited.
One issue of having dedicated tankers is, who are you catering to, and why?
One issue of having dedicated tankers is, who are you catering to, and why?
There isn't much detail on the logistics of the Imperial Navy. The Imperial Navy Sourcebook just says that a given naval base generally has "supports" equal to 1 to 2 times its fighting ships. But that includes tankers, dromedaries, stores ships, hospital ships, couriers, repair ships, and possibly other elements.
The 1e Sector Fleet predecessor is a little more specific. It shows each Batron having a dedicated tanker, each CruRon having a dedicated dromedary, and an additional 60 or 70 tankers across the Marches without a specific assignment. Presumably supporting the destroyer squadrons and providing mission specific support to heavier elements.
No indication of the size, jump range, or fueling capacity of these vessels. But they are still subject to the Tyrrany of the Jump Fuel Equation. If they are expected to be able to retreat without refueling themselves, they can't operate at more than J2 and actually carry any meaningful amount of fuel for anyone else.
The 1e Sector Fleet predecessor is a little more specific. It shows each Batron having a dedicated tanker, each CruRon having a dedicated dromedary, and an additional 60 or 70 tankers across the Marches without a specific assignment. Presumably supporting the destroyer squadrons and providing mission specific support to heavier elements.
No indication of the size, jump range, or fueling capacity of these vessels. But they are still subject to the Tyrrany of the Jump Fuel Equation. If they are expected to be able to retreat without refueling themselves, they can't operate at more than J2 and actually carry any meaningful amount of fuel for anyone else.
