Abandon Ship

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

tneva82 if you're going to judge someone could you read their posts?
The current complaint has nothing to do with the relaunch, other than it being a sympton of the problems which were identified from the start...

Nice one Max!

 

[MaxSteiner]

Cheers, I didn't really think Scipio really deserved flack from tneva82 tbh, especially when he left before the announcement and all.
He was hardly one of the complainers either, we can spot our own

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

... the nineties were a bad time for comics :lol:

Hell yes Lol! Although I enjoyed the early Image and Valiant stuff.

I was staying clear of this since I never bothered to disguise how bad I thought the skinnies were when they came out, but I think in Mongooses defense its a bit of a difficult question to answer isn't it? I don't see how they could answer without pissing someone off...
And to be completly honest if Mongoose were going purely on what was said on these forums they must have thought the entire Skinny range was the best thing ever the way people were raving about them.

Even though I can see why people don't like the Slaves, I think they are fine as Slaves. The only thing that is odd, is making such a cheap in points unit out of metal. I like the Skinnies, they look like the should to me.

Mongoose was trying out alot of different methods so I don't blame them for most of it really I'm sure at the start there was a push to prove that SST wasn't going to be a small stand alone game where you just fought bug vs MI battles out of the box, and that might explain some of the less considered releases (Those electric pylons anyone?).

The Bug Zappers are in the second Film, they were released for completeness I would imagine. They are useful in Game, but very expensive for what you get (I made my own Lol).

Producing the miniatures in the US to take advantage of the strong pound must have made quality control really difficult, not to mention the fact that if you've got a production schedual to keep which includes mailing a fragile green to a moldmaker any delays are gonna cost you lots of money.

It was a false economy, they should have had them mastered and the moulds made in the UK - THEN farmed them out. Miniature Casters and Mould makers know what they are up to in the UK.

Setting up the chinese plastic production was a good move in the long run but must have made things tight at the start (I'd imagine alot was lost on the Blister/blaster sprues).

The Chinese are masters when it comes to plastic production, always have been.

But I don't see why alot of the Skinnies weren't just sent back for a bit more work, its not uncommon in the business, any sculpter who'd refuse to say redo the Skinny Venerables shoulder mounted weapons (On account of them looking crap) doesn't deserve the work simple as that...

The only issue I have with the venerables is how thin they are, think about it - they are wearing armour - how thin would they have to be to be in there! If people don't like the way Skinnies look facially, tough - thats what they look like Lol!

Its alot harder to be negative on this forum then you people think!

It doesn't stop people doing it though LOL!

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

Cheers, I didn't really think Scipio really deserved flack from tneva82 tbh, especially when he left before the announcement and all.
He was hardly one of the complainers either, we can spot our own

Never had an issue with Scipio. He's a nice chap.

 

[mthomason]

Odd. Nobody from MGP has replied to my questions as of yet.

WB again Scipio

You might want to try emailing them (assuming you haven't already) or putting a more prominent thread up with "Questions to Mongoose" in the subject, as with the length of this thread it really wouldn't surprise me if your questions have just got lost in the conversation and nobody at MGP has read them. Personally I'd always suggest emailing (and asking them to post the answers onto the board for everyone to see) rather than posting questions to Mongoose staff here as the thread inevitably gets highjacked by others and dragged off-topic, losing your original intent once again. I just reckon with the sheer number of posts on the boards recently if anyone at Mongoose has the time to read every single one then they can't be getting much else done

Of course, if you did email them then my apologies for suggesting something you've already done

 

[Games&Theory]

Would you guys like some cheeze with that whine?


It is so easy to be negative.....

Well they are not the first persons in the world actively seeking out complaints to be made. Some people just cant live if they cant find something to complain about it.

Gee so Mongoose gave us "only" eight month advance warning. Should they have said 12 months ago we MIGHT redo game a bit in these and these ways(oh and we also will keep old rules fully supported as well!). Then same people would have complained "they gave us only 20 months advance warning! They should give us warning sooner!" etc

A disturbing trend I've noticed is that anybody with a join date in the 2006 range thinks this idea is just too peachy keen. Well, that position is easy enough to say when your investment (of time, money, support for the company) has been minimal. But look at posters with early 2005 (or prior) join dates and the percentage who are being "negative" seems to really go up. Wanna know why?...read on:

The bottom line is that in switching to SST:E, MGP made a GOOD business decision in both financial terms and likelihood of continuing the franchise! Hooray, right!?!?! Well, in this case, it comes at a price: how the existing customer base was treated...especially those who supported the game in it's infancy.

I do think MGP had to make a hard decision on switching to a more comtemporary business strat and I bet it pays off. I have had 2 LGS owners tell me they would likely stock SST:E becuase it'll probably sell and they something to replace the waning 'Clix revenue...but the first thing they both said, without prompting I might add, was basically "sucks to be the old players." Hmmm...so maybe I'm actually not crazy when I think that...

Oh, and might I add, both owners keenly noticed how the HOBBY (not just gaming but building, converting, painting) will llikely lose yet more ground once SST:E arrives.

Those store owners (who opened those stores because of the HOBBY) never spoke the words but, nevertheless, they made me feel like I had been supporting a trojan horse all this time. Me, the champion of SST, who had been pumping my own dollars into product (to keep them in business, I thought as I did it) and trying to drum up support on the local level has been thanked with the sudden realization that I had been actually paying to support the betatest period of a new and different product and that there was suddenly the very likely prospect that a good bit of the work I'd done to get more people into the HOBBY will be eroded by yet more pre-painted plastic crack being pushed.

But hey, companies need to make tough decisions...all's fair in love war and business, I guess...

 

[Hiromoon]

Given that the current miniature line will still be produced, and will be the only way to get certain units, I don't think the hobby will suffer too much, given that theres games like Axis and Allies miniatures, HeroClix, MageKnight, Heroscape and DnD Miniatures out there. Plus, Matt's mentioned special order unpainted miniatures from the new line.

 

[Rob_A]

and there will be some that you wont be able to get painted, be it never, or at least for a very long time. I like that each army shall be getting releases fairly each month. If any new ones come out, I think they should be allowed some time to catch up, or a huge amount released with very little others, this is a mistake Rackham has made by releasing random stuff for random factions.

 

[MaxSteiner]

Given that the current miniature line will still be produced, and will be the only way to get certain units, I don't think the hobby will suffer too much, given that theres games like Axis and Allies miniatures, HeroClix, MageKnight, Heroscape and DnD Miniatures out there. Plus, Matt's mentioned special order unpainted miniatures from the new line.

I gotta agree with Hiro here, when I heared the skinny venerable was still gonna come out this year (I hope the skinny brutes see the light of day too) I found one of my major objections lifted, I had anticipated the continued support being blisters of heavy weapon guys for existing units and that was it .
1.5 years is a bit quick for a new edition, and its put me right of buying any of the other army books (although bought one and seeing how little is in them I wasn't really all that eager anyway), but theres only like seven months left, and if these new prepaints are gonna kill the hobby they're gonna do it with or without mongoose, might as well be some companies I like making money out of it :lol:

I was wondering actually when we were talking about the Forth in the way back when Hiro mentioned all the big things which were planned for the folth army book, any idea if all of that going to fit into a main rule book nestled amongst three armies, or is it being cut back (Or did it never get started)?
The distinct lack of fluff throughout the games life was always a bit dissapointing, I can deal with bad art work (hmmm, dont wanna offend anyone there... I know! With the occasional decent bit thrown in :wink, but fluffs important (And surely anyone can churn out fluff I have it on good authority that GW's is written by chimps chained to type writers).

Hmmmm if the RPG still an ongoing concern maybe theres a folth suppliment coming up...

____________________________________________________________
At the Lt. Bug Zappers were in the second film?... I must have watched even less then I thought! (when we were watching it was agreed that if it turned out theres some mind control bugs and they don't know who's infected it was going off... the Thing did it all much better.
I agree with the point by point you did, my post was meant to try and be realistic about the problems they had, but the only main thing it came down to was that some of the ideas were a bit of a gamble (I.E bucking the trends which almost every other miniatures company follows) and they didn't all pay off.
That and the sculpter must have been someone in the companies brother or something....

 

[Hiromoon]

From what I understand the big rule book with have the army lists in it, with ALL the armies. Let's say that again.


ALL THE ARMIES

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

1.5 years is a bit quick for a new edition, and its put me right of buying any of the other army books (although bought one and seeing how little is in them I wasn't really all that eager anyway), but theres only like seven months left, and if these new prepaints are gonna kill the hobby they're gonna do it with or without mongoose, might as well be some companies I like making money out of it :lol:

1.5 years is fast, but then again look how many rules changes and amendments turn up in White Dwarf mere months after the release of a new edition.

This new edition is in place of an Annual (what other companies do to avoid new editions, usually after 4 - 6 years the rules changes get so 'heavy' that they HAVE to release a new edition).

I can't see pre-paints killing the 'hobby'. There are many companies that will NEVER do pre-paints (for whatever reasons), and have Click's 'killed' the Hobby. The most danger was from Card Games tbh.

 

[Hiromoon]

Horrible habit, CCGs. Though... *hides project he's been working on*

 

[mthomason]

Lets not forget all the extra time hobbyists who move to the "Evo" games will have to sculpt cool terrain for their miniatures. Its not the end of the hobby really, it's more the opportunity to reshuffle your time into the things you want to make rather than the things you have to make, should you want to do so.

I have my fingers tightly crossed that the minis will take a repainting, as I want to convert and paint a very small amount of them. More tightly crossed for BF Evo really as with SST I'll always have a ton of unpainted originals for the M.I. if I need them

 

[MaxSteiner]

(@ Lt I edited the previous post to reply to you, didn't read all of the topic before posting)
Hehe I think you're overestimating what they put in White Dwarf these days, if they put rules in there might actually be something worth reading :lol:

I don't really see the hobby dying (thats just me being melodramatic) but I do see it changing immensly.
For instance Hasro/Wizards of the coast effectivly slaughtered any system which wasn't D20! RPG's are still around but with few exceptions its all sullied by the worst dice ever invented... appart from D4's I hate those (Unless they're barrel dice )
And then there was the effect on Hobby stores, ten years ago it was actually worth me going up to say Brighton because there were fiveRPG/Comic shops in the city now theres one.
Up and down the country FLGS realise that theres no point getting in a wide range of products, all you need to do is get in a couple of boxes of Mtg Boosters on the counter.
Time goes on and they begin to wonder why they ever bothered stocking anything else, they're racking it in, business has never been better.
Pretty soon MtG cards are the main use for the supply chain, smaller companies are going out of business in droves, but nobody cares look how well Mtg is selling!
Suddenly the bubble bursts and the mad rush for magic cards ends,
FLGS finds all the previous customers have been scared of by the screaming kids, and that the screaming kids aren't buying any more cards just using what they have.
Repeat that in every single gameshop in the area.

I remeber people saying the exact same thing about Fighting Fantasy books though, and as it turned out they didn't kill the hobby, so maybe all the fears unfounded and it skips an innovation

 

[Hiromoon]

*makes a note to not let Max near his rpg collection*

 

[MaxSteiner]

:lol: I can handle the D20 thing just about, but I miss every different game having its own rules
Actually didn't like the fact that my half-orc Conork the Bard'barian (The best mullti class ever!), who should have only been able to miss on the roll of a 4 or less would fail to hit anything with alarming regularity either, like I say I hate d20's. Man that character was cool though... D&D 3rd edition was much better before they fixed all the gaping holes in it for the update

 

[Hiromoon]

But you do! We have the good old Shadowrun 3rd Edition rules, the craptastic Shadowrun 4th Edition rules, GURPS, White Wolf's World of Darkness series, Exalted (Which shares WoD's system), Rifts/Palladium Fantasy, that one RPG made for fans of Serenity and a few others.

 

[The Old Soldier]

BTW: To me the best RPG system would use a bell curve, such as 2D6. Like the old Steve Jackson stuff I use to love.

 

[MaxSteiner]

Compared to what there was before thats nothing though.
Even Cthulhus got D20 forced onto these days despite it clearly not working... thankfully its still got the old rules to.
Paladiums is sad to say almost bankrupt as was recently reported (I play TMNT every week still though), The new world of darkness awful and spread over far to many tiny books (Seriously how do you take the MtA magic rules and replace it with a system where you buy specific effects? thats crap), Exalted is WW's storyteller so its not really another system but I do like the powers and the artwork though.
Oh and GURPS will never die because its the best system ever!

I didn't know shadowrun was still kicking about though thats good to hear!(Whys the 4th edition crap by the way?).
But seriously thats a drop in the ocean compared to the D20 deluge, there are lots other systems out there but they're the exception not the rule.
Its not as bad as it was to be honest, that Warmachine rpg and Hero 5th edition etc are signs that the damage wasn't as extensive as it seemed, but I'd been put of buying new books for a couple of years, just because everything I was tempted by was D20... Thank god for Ebay is all I can say, thanks to it I can pretend its still 1989 and buy away without fear of open source gaming. :lol:

 

[Hiromoon]

4th edition limited all target numbers to 5, and removed the pools, and a few dozen other things that makes the system a bit ungainly to use.

GURPS, in my opinion, wasn't worth the effort put into character creation. It took me two hours to make a character, and I had five people helping me.