Why are the Sword Worlds not TL14?

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

This question came out of another thread, but is worth considering. The Sword Worlds are populous, industrial and resource rich. Close to the Imperium so able to buy and reverse engineer technology almost as good as the best in the Spinward Marches, or able to acquire said tech from their Zhodani allies.

The Sword Worlds do tend to be military minded, perhaps even militaristic, and worried about threat from the Darrians or the Imperium, while dreaming of reclaiming lost worlds. Also have dynamic internal politics. All reasons to drive a technological arms race.

But most planets are TL 10 or 11, and even the leaders are only TL12. Wouldn't their military and naval tech, at least, be as good as their neighbours'?

(And yes, my battledress does have horns on it, matches the dragon shaped FGMP!)

Egil

 

[rust]

Wouldn't their military and naval tech, at least, be as good as their neighbours'?

The most plausible answer would be "Yes", especially since the Sword
Worlders obviously spend quite some effort on well equipped military
forces and their mentality would make it most unpleasant for them to
be considered the dumb primitives from the backwoods.

(And yes, my battledress does have horns on it, matches the dragon shaped FGMP!)

(But the Icelandic in your signature looks suspiciously like German )

 

[smiths121]

Constant in-fighting and squabbles may have an effect on progress.

I may be doing the Sword worlds a diservice, but it strikes me their culture would percieve clubbing your enemy to death as more correct than shooting him :evil:

 

[DFW]

I may be doing the Sword worlds a diservice, but it strikes me their culture would percieve clubbing your enemy to death as more correct than shooting him :evil:

That didn't stop the Norse from having cutting edge naval tech... Seriously? Because the game designers aren't that swift when it comes to internal inconsistencies in the rules.

 

[SJE]

Isnt the idea that short term spending on military assets (which get regularly blown up) takes away resources from long term scientific and technical infrastructure?

And those worlds that do build up their scientific and technical bases (at the expense of the military) get invaded, damaged or pillaged.

Essentially the Sword Worlders all go to military academy- not enough of them go do a Physics Ph.D.

Plus they serve as the contrast to the high-tech, low aggression Darrians.

SJE

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

(But the Icelandic in your signature looks suspiciously like German )

You are, naturlich, correct. A bit of Sword World fusion there.

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Isnt the idea that short term spending on military assets (which get regularly blown up) takes away resources from long term scientific and technical infrastructure?

And those worlds that do build up their scientific and technical bases (at the expense of the military) get invaded, damaged or pillaged.

Essentially the Sword Worlders all go to military academy- not enough of them go do a Physics Ph.D.

Plus they serve as the contrast to the high-tech, low aggression Darrians.

SJE

Yeah, but part of the point is that the Sword Worlders don't have to invent the TL14 gear, they can acquire examples from the Imperium, or the Zhodani, and copy, and they have had centuries to do that. Many Sword Worlders would do a physics PhD, perhaps after a term in the military with a demob grant.

Regarding internal wars etc, perhaps a problem at times, but look at the UWPs in the Sword World sub-sector, most planets have a good population base, and the tech levels are consistently 10-12. This is not an area where there are a large number of wasted, battle ruined planets, not recently anyway.

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Didn't the Swordies go through a number of near-collapses, internal revolts and strife during their existence? Not to mention that they started out rather small (Refugee convoi, think Galactica) so they had a small tech/science base to to start with (And a phase of "non starflight" IIRC)

They are at odds with the two high tech powers in their region so any high tech they get from there is through "Switzerland"(1) and the Zhos are TL14 at best IIRC and the question is if they trust the Swordies enough to deliver cutting edge tech to them

They may be abel to GET high tech stuff but they may not have a broad enough base to produce/maintain it without outside help/parts. Quite similar to some client nations IRL that have some impressive systems but overall are at least a generation behind (Think Apartheit era South Afrika with a high quality artillery but Centurions for tanks).

Since "having a TL" in Traveller is often interpreted as "being there in most/all important areas of development" I won't rule out that they are TL-13/14 at some areas (weapons, M-drives) but behind at so many others that their overall TL is lower than their peak.


(1) Think of the two germanies during the cold war, quite a bit of tech transfer was done through neutral countries

Certainly many internal wars, some very destructive, in the past, but in recent centuries the politics seems much more stable.

Cannot see why the Zhos would not trust the Sword Worlders. A better armed Confederation could have real advantages for the Zhodanis on the border. The Swordies have also had a long time to acquire material from the Imperium, by purchase, espionage or wrecked Imperial warships, to use as blue prints and reverse engineer.

Don't think the comparison with South Africa very valid, that was an essentaily pre-industrial nation that relied on extractive industries, when the arms embargo had been in place for 10 years or so the SADF started to find its equipment inferior to that of its opponents. The Sword Worlds clearly have a well developed sub-sector wide economy including a number of officially industrial planets, and a number of others that can,t be too far off.

Egil

 

[SJE]

Yeah, but part of the point is that the Sword Worlders don't have to invent the TL14 gear, they can acquire examples from the Imperium, or the Zhodani, and copy, and they have had centuries to do that. Many Sword Worlders would do a physics PhD, perhaps after a term in the military with a demob grant.

How many Ph.D candidates survive their service? Your generations Einstein may well die during national service hazing. And a demob grant? Thats a huge investment of resources to take away from building another star cruiser- cheaper to let them keept thier service weapon and give them 40 acres in a conquered planet to be a real Swordie.

And buying in stuff to copy? You still need your technical infrastructure to produce the copies- which again requires long term investment with stable, peaceful governments which really isnt a Swordie trait.

SJE

 

[Ishmael]

it seems to me that unless is rigidly ritualized, constant warfare should advance technology as it appears to have done during the various hot and cold wars our own world has experienced.
Without sets of 'rules' for 'proper' warfare, each side will do what it must to gain any advantage that it can, which in turn will cause advances in technology.

That long stable periods without advancement are often used to mark peaceful, pastoral worlds that are stagnant because they are happy just as they are, would point to the idea that the Sword Worlds are very much more pacifistic than Impie propaganda would have everyone believe.

of course, I'm not to keen on the broad-brush characterization of their culture being 'vikings in spaaaace'.

Maybe they are relatively pacifistic after all. ( at least when compared to Impie propaganda pop-culture images if Vikings )

 

[rust]

Maybe they are relatively pacifistic after all. ( at least when compared to Impie propaganda pop-culture images if Vikings )

This would still fit in well with the idea of (fake) Norse in space. The huge
majority of the real world Norsemen were farmers, crafters and traders
who were no more warlike than any other of the European cultures, the
raiding vikings were a comparatively small minority. The same could be
true for the Sword Worlders, with a civilization that is basically as peace-
loving as any other, but with a "warrior caste" with a more warlike, offi-
cial ideology.

 

[justacaveman]

Maybe the Swordworlders would be TL 7-9 if they didn't have their neighbors to learn from. Maybe they're on their way up, and in a couple of centuries will catch up to the Imperium.

 

[rinku]

The Zho would have a vested interest in keeping a TL edge over the SW; can't see them providing cutting edge support (more likely dumping their own obsolete TL12 cruisers on them). They are allies of convenience at best - the SW are probably even more appalling to Zho sensibilities than the Imperials are. From a Zhodani point of view, however, they will be able to take over and crush the Sword Worlders without much trouble when the time is appropriate.

There may also be an element of Darrian black ops work to make sure the SW tech is kept in check.

A final point - TL14 is still pretty high tech from an Imperial point of view. In a contemporary setting, an F-22 would be "TL15" to an older model F-15's "TL14". There may not be THAT much TL14 military grade gear that the SWs can get their hands on to retro-engineer (civilian stuff, sure). They're likely still trying to retro-engineer the TL13 stuff...

 

[AndrewW]

Maybe the Swordworlders would be TL 7-9 if they didn't have their neighbors to learn from. Maybe they're on their way up, and in a couple of centuries will catch up to the Imperium.

Of course by then the Imperium could be up higher as well.

 

[justacaveman]

The Imperium is a slow moving tradition-bound, bureaucracy-laden empire, while the Sword Worlds are a younger more dynamic culture. So the Swordworlders will eventually close the gap.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Well SA managed to build the bomb, a number of native build armored cars, a combat helicopter and some very nice guns. So they had some industrial base. But take other "client states" if you prefer (South Korea, Israel, Taiwan,...) the result is similar. Without external help they are not "up to date". Heck, even Japan needed help with their Type 90 tank

As for "upgunning the Swordies": That can be done without giving them a complete techbase. Israel operates F15 but could not build them(1). It was in the US interest to supply it's client with the weapons but it was not in the interest to supply the tools/maschines to build them(2). I would not rule out a split tech Swordie navy.



(1) Same for the Merkava, that uses a lot of "Leopard/M1" tech
(2) Israel CAN build advanced jet fighters but those are "3. Gen" fighter at best

Israel and Tiawan are certainly better examples, but niether is a sub-sector of star system, and niether has had centuries to improve their tech.

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Yeah, but part of the point is that the Sword Worlders don't have to invent the TL14 gear, they can acquire examples from the Imperium, or the Zhodani, and copy, and they have had centuries to do that. Many Sword Worlders would do a physics PhD, perhaps after a term in the military with a demob grant.

How many Ph.D candidates survive their service? Your generations Einstein may well die during national service hazing. And a demob grant? Thats a huge investment of resources to take away from building another star cruiser- cheaper to let them keept thier service weapon and give them 40 acres in a conquered planet to be a real Swordie.

And buying in stuff to copy? You still need your technical infrastructure to produce the copies- which again requires long term investment with stable, peaceful governments which really isnt a Swordie trait.

SJE

Remember that the Sword Worlds are not in a state of perpetual warfare and anarchy, the UWPs don't make sense if they do. Many swordies complete their military service as a right of passage, then go back to their settled, industrial, world. Swordie Einstein just as likely to die in a hazing in the frat house as in the barracks. In a society that takes pride in military service, demob grants would be part of the deal.

If the Swordies were as downright thick and aggressive as some of the posts seem to suggest, then their society would have destroyed itself centuries ago, or a combined Zho/Imp task force would have dealt with them.

Agree with many of the posts that can see a broader, more settled, side to the Swordies. In many ways, if you are looking for the space "vikings", they are several sub-sectors coreward and call themselves Vargr ....

Egil

 

[AndrewW]

If the Swordies were as downright thick and aggressive as some of the posts seem to suggest, then their society would have destroyed itself centuries ago, or a combined Zho/Imp task force would have dealt with them.

Well that Zho/Imp task force hasn't dealt with the Vargr yet...

 

[rinku]

Probably the single most important factor is that each sword world maintains their own navy, government and by extension R&D. In effect, instead of comparing them as a group of 19 worlds vs the Imperium, you should be comparing them as 19 individual worlds vs the Imperium. And only three of those are high population (Narsil, Gram and Sacnoth) anyway.

 

[justacaveman]

The Sword Worlds are a Confederation rather than an empire, and have both the advantages and disadvantages of such a governmental situation.