Who Builds Imperial Navy Ships and Where Do They Do It?

Isn't it lucky, that technological levels can last centuries.

I'm guessing that part of the naval depot will look like boneyards.

As regards the Chinese, they have set themselves up for block obsolescence.
 
In our real world we can look at the Western nations and nearly all of them have aging naval infrastructure because maintenance isn't sexy.
I really dislike using modern western "liberal democracies" as analogies to how things will be done in the 57th century.
Whether or not the Imperial navy depots would fall into the same malaise is debatable. It's fortunate that the Imperium is still fighting wars on it's boundaries so that it has the impetus to not fall into the same problems as organizations getting tired preparing for something that hasn't come. People and organizations tend to get a bit sloppy and myopic whenever there aren't any actual bullets flying around all the time. At least historically that seems to be the case. But whenever they are building up to something or actively fighting (or getting ready to) they seem to have a tendency to not do that.
Good point. The Imperium was fighting the Solomani a century ago and they remain a threat, Vargr raiders are a constant pain, and the Zhodani were fought inconclusively only a few decades ago. The Imperium knows the Solomani and Zhodani are making technological progress, the latest generation of TL15 ships the Imperium is building must be constructed with a mind to fighting peer opponents rather than a TL advantage.
As an aside I recently finished reading a book on China's air force and it's manufacturing challenges from the founding of the PRC and it's many, many, many challenges to getting to where it is today - from manufacturing to building up the necessary knowledge base on how to build things on their own vs. just trying to copy something by getting plans and taking things apart. Modern equipment is actually very complicated engineering and materials wise - probably even more so in the future.
There is a reason western universities were flooded with Chinese students from the 70s onwards, and if you follow the scientific literature it is noticeable that a lot of original research and engineering is now taking place in China.
Depots probably would not have the necessary infrastructure, industry or population base to build everything the Navy needs. That would require a massive investment in industry to build all the required widgets and gadgets that go into the parts that get assembled into a starship. As we've seen with modern airliners and other things, it takes entire industrial sectors spread out all over the world building all the parts and components that make up a modern piece of equipment.
The only reason those components are sourced from all over the world is globalist complacency. Whensanctions were placed on the Chinese and their access to microchips was limited they invested in the infrastructure to make their own - go look at the Chinese chip export market...
The US has the resources to be industrially self sufficient, the EU, China, India similarly. What they may not have access to are the raw materials...
choices
trade
war
space industry
Its unrealistic to think a single system would have ALL of that in one place.
A TL15 Industrial High Population system is unlikely to need anything from another world for its industries.
No, I think it's a better concept to keep depots as storage and refurbishment points, with some ship building capacity and probably the ability to bring ships out of mothballs/reserve quickly (relatively speaking) when the balloon has already gone up weeks or months by the time the message gets back to them. Space blitzkreigs sound all cool and all, but every invader who is successful with them (and unless they are ponies and live off the land) you tend to outrun your supply lines. All the successful invaders of the 20th and 21st century have found that to be a truism.
Skunk Works, every depot includes a Skunk Works... or Phantom Works, or DARPA.
 
I really dislike using modern western "liberal democracies" as analogies to how things will be done in the 57th century.
Well, I could perhaps cite Han-dynasty shipbuilding, or maybe the Japanese example. Since I was referencing modern naval warship construction the Asian nations (aside from Japan) simply don't have the deep historical data. I could have cited the Russian shipbuilding, or the older Soviet Union/Warsaw pact (I don't think they would meet your "liberal democracy" definition), but they were woefully inefficient then and still today. Rarely does a modern navy have the challenges they have. The USN has been the pre-eminent naval power since WW2, and it had a naval defense industry to match it. Prior to that Great Britain had the most modern naval infrastructure in the world for centuries. They, too, have shrunk and are having challenges. The point I was making was that there's no reason why the Imperium might not have some of the these same issues.
Good point. The Imperium was fighting the Solomani a century ago and they remain a threat, Vargr raiders are a constant pain, and the Zhodani were fought inconclusively only a few decades ago. The Imperium knows the Solomani and Zhodani are making technological progress, the latest generation of TL15 ships the Imperium is building must be constructed with a mind to fighting peer opponents rather than a TL advantage.
The active engagement with an enemy, or the active threat of an enemy (similar to the cold war of the East v West) apparently are enough for a society to spend the necessary funds to maintain good military infrastructure. It would be interesting to do a deeper dive historically to see how other nations/states did the same. There may be further analogies here (unfortunately using more Western liberal democracies) in that you have the Imperium as being responsible for overall defense of the Imperium. That breaks down to the larger sectors (Such as the Marches), sub-sectors and then individual planetary systems. With the founding of NATO (and, to a lesser extent, the Warsaw Pact, ANZUS, SEATO, etc) you see some of the larger entities taking on the lion's share of the costs and building of weapons/ships/bases. The smaller powers often major contribution is forward basing. Using the NATO example we see the nations that are protected under the NATO umbrella spending far less of their GDP on defense, and often contributing little, if any, to the other parts such as the support infrastructure and R&D establishments. So one has to wonder if we look at the Imperial naval infrastructure would we see much the same? Would the planets invest only minimal credits in their local navies, or perhaps build and maintain some token system defense capabilities and be able to offer up little to much larger conflicts?

One would think those systems on the edges that have seen previous incursions would invest more heavily, but with human nature being what it is, I think it's questionable whether or not such expenditures and investment would stay at constant levels without some raids or other issues happening to constantly prod the politicians into spending those credits on defense rather than in something else for society. From a game perspective you could say simply "yes" and everything is linear from that point. Or, you could say it's gonna vary widely, and adventures set farther away from any frontier that abuts a hostile power may much more lackadaisical about their establishment, bribery more common, encounters with modern equipment rare. All depends on how you want to play the setting. But knowing about these things makes it far easier on the ref and helps the creative juices of players looking to make a quick credit or a safe getaway.
There is a reason western universities were flooded with Chinese students from the 70s onwards, and if you follow the scientific literature it is noticeable that a lot of original research and engineering is now taking place in China.
I think there are many reasons for that. After Reagan asked Mr. Gorbachev to tear these walls down, and you saw the collapse of the Communist side of the Cold War, there was the inevitable flood of people coming to the West to take advantage of generally better education systems. People did come to take knowledge back, but a lot also stayed (i.e. the brain drain). It's only been in the last few decades where there have been changes in the political winds that have started to slow down, or even reverse this trend. Some of these countries also, smartly, worked very hard to build up their own education system because they felt it put them at a weaker point by not having strong institutions locally.

There is much debate going on to the point of how much original research is occurring in China. Much technology has been stolen from the West to help them jump start their economy. I find it rather ironic, historically speaking at least, that the US has bemoaned the fact that China has stolen so much from the West to build up its domestic industries when the early US colonies had done the same to the UK and older European nations from which they originated. Different tech and issues (example - the US was paying a bounty of seeds of different types that could be smuggled out of Europe, and the US was trying hard to get access to the milling technologies of the UK), but the process is the same.

China is also the worlds leader in fake research. The Economist ran an article earlier this year about a study of retracted scientific papers. Of the 50,000 papers that were part of the survey, almost half originated in China. Fake research has become rampant over the last few decades, and China is leading the pack in the creation. Chinese researchers have the same publish or perish pressures Western scientists have. Though I think they have less of a historical or cultural pressure to NOT do such things than those in the West. I'm sure it's a far more nuanced thing than just that though.

The only reason those components are sourced from all over the world is globalist complacency. Whensanctions were placed on the Chinese and their access to microchips was limited they invested in the infrastructure to make their own - go look at the Chinese chip export market...
The US has the resources to be industrially self sufficient, the EU, China, India similarly. What they may not have access to are the raw materials...
choices
trade
war
space industry
I would have to disagree here. Modern technology and the world economy is far more intertwined today than at any other point in human history. Capitalism, love it or hate it, seeks out lowest costs regardless of the other aspects of is it secure or in the best national interests. As we've seen time and again, technology and products escape sanctions and with enough money they still make it through to enemies of one state or the other. North Korea, Russia, Iran (to name a few) have continually been able to obtain chips, parts and other things from the West.

Sanctions on China and their chip industry have had mixed results. It's definitely slow down their domestic production (and without the very stupid Western companies who were transferring tech to China while relocating production facilities there), but it's not stopped it. The US has pressured the Dutch ASML to not export the lithographic chip making machinery, and TSMC doesn't allow their tech to go to China either. The West COULD be self-sufficient in the manufacturing, but that would require a decade or more to reverse things. That train left the station a long time ago when companies were chasing profits over all else. Intel processors are mostly made outside of the US in places like Malaysia because it's cheaper. There is no TV manufacturing in the US anymore, or, I think cell phones. All of it has been outsourced to lower-cost production nations. That's a concept that is supposed to be integral to the Imperium as well - trade. I just don't see that as a reasonable thing to expect the Imperium to do. MAYBE a planet that was xenophobic, but even then it would never be able to match the rest of the Imperium in research or production. Trade makes for some very interesting bedfellows.

As an aside, a point of trivia on space and China. back in the mid 90s Hughes helped the Chinese figure out their rocket launch shroud issues. The Chinese hadn't had a lot of success in their designs and models for the shrouds and their rockets had issues with payloads making it space. Hughes was looking to China to save millions on launch fees so they helped them out to make their rockets better. Hughes got busted by the US government for helping a foreign nation with improving dual use mil-civ technology and, stupidly, helped China become a competitor to the US rocket industry. Hughes was a consumer of launch services, so if they could save a few million on launches they were all for it. They didn't really care (or think) about all the other implications.
A TL15 Industrial High Population system is unlikely to need anything from another world for its industries.
Why would you say that? There is no evidence to support such a statement if you look at human history. While access to an entire star system would give any society access to vast amounts of materials, I think it's a pretty big stretch to think that every material is going to be present in commercially viable quantities.

That's the thing about trade. You may have a TL-8 world next door teeming full of people who can more cheaply build your widgets. So TL-15 world ships in parts, TL-8 world assembles them and ships back finished goods. Both worlds benefit. This is the entire point of Smith's book The Wealth of Nations. While scale is certainly not the same (small nations vs a star system), the tech at the time was equivalent as the most sophisticated things were food, wood & iron. Quantities were smaller, too, since populations were smaller.
Skunk Works, every depot includes a Skunk Works... or Phantom Works, or DARPA.
Quite possible. The research stations seem to all work on specific areas or functions. The Imperium is so vast that there are probably specific research installations spread all over. The Depots in the deeper core may not work on as much as those on the frontier simply because there isn't as much need. And those Depots closer to the edges of Imperium probably have specific areas they are working on since their potential enemies may have weapons and tactics that are localized. How the Vargr fight would be different than say the Zhodani, or the Aslan or Solomani.
 
I think one thing that shouldn't be overlooked, that at least within the context of Traveller, technological levels take centuries to change.

So, once you figure out how something works, you can take your time figuring out how to improve it.

The rational for naval depots, as described, is sound - vacuum packed will ensure preservation of components, that will likely be at worst, only be a little bit obsolescent when next needed.

In terms of technology, the West knew that the Soviets were busy at industrial espionage, but one strategy was to out innovate them, so that they could never catch up, and waste their resources on processes that would be already outdated when they tried to copy them.

Which is what I believe is behind sanctions on Chinese firms, outside of letting the mainland self destruct, infrastructurally and financially.
 
Late to the party, but I'm figuring out shipyards IMTU, so I've been looking into these. Back in the CT days, I assumed that all of the "Yard 10 No. 1" and "Yard 22 No. 3" entries in the warship writeups were official Naval shipyards at the nearest Naval Depot. So, in the Kinunir description, since all of the ships listed were for Spinward Marches use, the "Yards" listed were all at Depot. There might be 24 or so Yards there with 4 bays each (hence "Yard 17 No. 1," where all of the Naval architects of the Domain of Deneb go to get training. I'm not sure that's supported, but it seemed that way to me at the time and I haven't really come away from that in the interim.
 
In the US Navy, the Engineering officer of most ships is not actually possessed of any special training in "engineering". They are Surface Warfare Line officers, same as pretty much all the other officers on the ship. However, to serve as an Engineering officer on a nuclear powered vessel (aircraft carrier or submarine), you do have to go to Naval Nuclear Power School and the Nuclear Power Training Unit (about a year of hardcore training in actual science & engineering). But its still basically management. They just hope you can tell when the reactor is about to explode in case there's no enlisted person around to clue you in.

Since starships are generally nuclear, that's probably why "Engineering" is its own branch in a lot of space shows/games. Or maybe its just because they wanted to give Scotty a different color shirt from the bridge guys.
First half is a graduate level course that packs the equivalent of at least 60 credits worth of classes into just under six months. For enlisted personnel, that equates to enough classes to get a major in nuclear power, minus two classes that the college board could not consider due to classifications. Those classes have to be taken externally.
The next six months for officers is operating a nuclear power plant that pretends to be at sea.
In the control room are at least three technicians working controls and instrumentation, advising the officer of current levels or actions. While the officer does a basic qualification on each station, they typically sit too far back to be able to determine what the panels say, and since he sits closer to the door, would be in a position to prevent a situation in which he had no enlisted people around.

Shipboard nuclear plants do not explode.
Army plants explode. Especially when you use your hands to lift the rods high enough to create a steam bubble that shoots the rod out, impaling you on the ceiling.
Of the Navy plants, both land based, two had a potential for explosions, but not of the reactor. One was sodium cooled and is now buried under a lot of dirt.
The other was the result of Admiral Rickover pulling the same scam that Coke did with New Coke over the high price of sugar. (Now the only REAL Coke in the US is the yellow capped Passover release).
The companies providing materials for control rods wanted to up their prices. Rickover told them that if they wanted any more government money for their very niche operations, they would lower their expectations, or he would build all future reactors without their materials. then he showed them the operational reactor.
Worked like a charm, without ANY of their minerals... as long as the ship didn't take a roll. Then there would be a steam explosion as a result of a runaway criticality. The bluff worked. That one has been refit to work like a normal attack sub reactor... but it still has the engine room from a Light Cruiser.
 
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But let's use Newport News.

On top of that, there is Huntington Hall Naval Berthing Facility, which is basically a barracks & residential complex close to the shipyard where the crews of ships in for refit can stay. It isn't *in* the shipyard, but public transportation runs between there and the shipyard.
Before Huntington Hall, or perhaps before it had the current capacity (it was not an option for us), they used a raised sunken ship that they refurbished as barracks for nuclear carrier overhauls. They chained the engine rooms shut so you wouldn't notice how much it looked like the Titanic after sitting there for decades, and so you didn't get injured on the flaking shards of rusting iron.
 
Why would you say that? There is no evidence to support such a statement if you look at human history. While access to an entire star system would give any society access to vast amounts of materials, I think it's a pretty big stretch to think that every material is going to be present in commercially viable quantities.

That's the thing about trade. You may have a TL-8 world next door teeming full of people who can more cheaply build your widgets. So TL-15 world ships in parts, TL-8 world assembles them and ships back finished goods. Both worlds benefit. This is the entire point of Smith's book The Wealth of Nations. While scale is certainly not the same (small nations vs a star system), the tech at the time was equivalent as the most sophisticated things were food, wood & iron. Quantities were smaller, too, since populations were smaller.
I agree. The difference between needs and wants is important here. Most star systems (assuming there is a habitable planet that can produce sufficient food) don't need anything: they will be able to find it in their system or work out a substitute, or do without. For TL15 star system this is definitely the case. However, that TL 15 system will have a lot of money to throw around, and its wants will be more important than other systems' needs. The citizens won't want to do tedious work themselves. Also, there will be things that can be gotten cheaper elsewhere - minerals closer to the surface, ore that doesn't need as much refining, workers that will do the work for very low pay. Ecologies that produce things - foods, drugs, luxury iteams, building materials - that are more desireable than those at home. This is going to be the case for all worlds, but for example, a high pop TL15 system that doesn't have much of a natural ecosystem around it will probably suck up vast amounts of food and other natural products, and pay for it with mostly credits earned from selling sophisticated high cost goods. They don't need to do that to survive, although if they get blockaded they might get in trouble and wish they had prepped.
 
At technological level fifteen, what exactly is grunt work?

And, who's doing it?


robot-with-family-at-home.jpg
 
I will still wait on the verdict from Mongoose. I just hate the fact that these two books were only printed 2 years apart and are either totally contrary or written by people for whom English is not their first language. (Or they were educated in the US, in which case never actually learned how to write properly. At least that is My excuse for why My writing sucks...lol...)

One says that Depots are where Navy Ships are built. It doesn't say some, or most, or a few, or anything else they could have used to clearly convey their intent.

The other says the Navy doesn't even build most of its ships with directly contradicts how the Depots and the Imperial Navy are described as working in Third Imperium. Does this mean that the Imperial Navy does not maintain its vessels either? That this is also done buy outside contractors? If so, why the hell does the navy have huge system-wide shipyards?

Good writing, a good editorial process, and a searchable database for Mongoose authors to have all previous (Mongoose) material available for Continuity means these problems do not happen. No one wants to buy books that keep retconning things simple because the authors don't know that the previous material exists in the first place. I will usually assume incompetence before malicious intent or lack of caring considering how much most of the authors also love Traveller.
It’s not necessary contrary. While the Deports are navy owned the ship yards would still be privately operated by a contractor. This is actually a common practice in the modern day military, many if not most of the support and maintenance on US bases is done by contractors. Also the imperium navy is subdivided into the “Navy”, “Colonial Navy”, “Sector Navy” and “planetary Navy”. While weaker the last three vastly outnumber the Imperial Navy. If you look at it this way most of the “Navy” ships are probably built at leased construction slips on the depots by the leasing companies, with a few slips kept for special projects while the Colonial, Sector, and planetary are built all over the place. This makes both statements true.
 
This makes a lot of sense. The Imperium doesn't directly control planets, nor does it directly control the megacorporations but it can call on them for procurement.
 
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I agree. The difference between needs and wants is important here. Most star systems (assuming there is a habitable planet that can produce sufficient food) don't need anything: they will be able to find it in their system or work out a substitute, or do without. For TL15 star system this is definitely the case. However, that TL 15 system will have a lot of money to throw around, and its wants will be more important than other systems' needs. The citizens won't want to do tedious work themselves.
Robots...
Also, there will be things that can be gotten cheaper elsewhere - minerals closer to the surface, ore that doesn't need as much refining, workers that will do the work for very low pay. Ecologies that produce things - foods, drugs, luxury iteams, building materials - that are more desireable than those at home. This is going to be the case for all worlds, but for example, a high pop TL15 system that doesn't have much of a natural ecosystem around it will probably suck up vast amounts of food and other natural products, and pay for it with mostly credits earned from selling sophisticated high cost goods. They don't need to do that to survive, although if they get blockaded they might get in trouble and wish they had prepped.
2% of the material mined from an asteroid is organic feed stock for the Agricultural Manufacturing Plant, so you can literally have an asteroid world that is a net exporter of food. (even though the Trade Codes say otherwise) Other options are vast underground greenhouses or past TL-12 with an enhanced fabrication chamber, you just print whatever you want as far as food goes, as long as it is not alive at the time.
 
Robots...

2% of the material mined from an asteroid is organic feed stock for the Agricultural Manufacturing Plant, so you can literally have an asteroid world that is a net exporter of food. (even though the Trade Codes say otherwise) Other options are vast underground greenhouses or past TL-12 with an enhanced fabrication chamber, you just print whatever you want as far as food goes, as long as it is not alive at the time.
you can have. You could also processes the effluent straight out of the sewage plant, and eat it. There are two issues here : 1) is it more economical than harvesting the fruit which grows naturally and abundantly on world with a viable eco-system? The answer is: maybe, maybe not. You'll have to run the numbers - which, in an RPG means the referee will make it up. But more realistically, this depends on whether you can just dig it out from the asteroid where you are, or whether you have to go rooting around the Oort Cloud to find it, in which case it is probably easier just to buy it from the traders who bringing it in from the system next door. 2) will people want to eat it? The answer is no. Of course, it might taste the same. It probably doesn't, but it might, and anyways taste is a matter of, well, taste. So also, the referee will make it up, and decide whether the rich, powerful TL15 citizens prefer to eat a steaming pile of reprocessed shit, no doubt food-coloured into a palatable flavour, or whether this person would prefer to have a tender, slightly smokey floured, lightly salted cut of medium rare prime rib, accompanied by a Cabernet Franc, fresh, full of ripe raspberry fruit, with mineral, and floral accent, sin addition to having dried-herbal pyrazine notes. Of course, the first food is local, so patriotism might win out, but my money is on the second.

Of course, if you want to have a world in which TL15 fabricators make food which is both delicious and cheap and indistinguishable from the real thing, it is just as plausible. IMTU, I like to have trade and the politics which follow therefrom so I assume scarcity. I assume you can make stuff with fabricators, but there are limits - so they mostly focus on making spare parts and stuff like that - when you need one example of a specific item which is a pain to get from somewhere else at the moment. Otherwise it is more economical to have a purpose built machine to make the exact widget in question. Under these assumptions, food is something you probably wouldn't fabricate, unless you were starving, and therefore would import from places where it both grows, and where people think it is worth their time to grow it.
 
yeah, dealing with TL.. 12? 13? + 'we can make food out of anything' and certainly by TL15 fabricators.. really puts a dent in trade. Why BOTHER with trade if you can just make things? Import the appropriate manufacturing plant, and wouldn't all trade in the 3I just die?

and considering the difference between vegetarian meat in the 90s to today.. yeah, by TL12, i don't think even the most diehard rich 'i only want the best' elitist foody would care about whether the food was manufactured or actually naturally grown.
 
Economical or not, a varied diet is something people will pay for. You will not lose money by trading high quality food, that you cannot produce yourself, for tools and minerals.
 
Right, I'm saying.. you'll have star trek food replicators. Name what you want, you'll have it. (Maybe not actually personal size replicators, but the ability to synthesize any flavor at the local manufacturing plant that you can imagine, to a quality better than any foody can distinguish from the real thing.)
 
Ever eat anything grown using compost rather than artificial feltiliser...
people have been putting shit and piss on fields since before the younger dryas and eating the produce.
Food is recycled waste.
 
Ever eat anything grown using compost rather than artificial feltiliser...
people have been putting shit and piss on fields since before the younger dryas and eating the produce.
Food is recycled waste.
I have a garden and keep pigs. Guess what I use for fertilizer? lol
 
Outside of scarcity, the other leg being cost.

There may be a Tick Talk trend for fly fishing on the local planet, and you have a container full of tinklewood fishing rods onboard, which you offer at a cheaper price than local manufacture.
 
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