UWP and the Imperial Population

[MasterGwydion]

I am doing some worldbuilding again. Shocking, I know. I tripped over the whole Cordan population thing. (Only the Baronial Households are counted in the UWP number, but the real population is vastly more than this.)

It made Me wonder if any worlds within the Imperium were done this way as well. Anyone know?

 

[MasterGwydion]

I ask, because, all people on those Imperial worlds are Imperial Citizens, correct? If the local planetary government only counts a portion of the actual population, as the actual population (Like Cordan if they were an Imperial World.), does that mean that those people not counted are not Imperial citizens either?

 

[WHULorigan]

Pop-code in the UWP should normally include the total World population, period (Imperial or otherwise). Unless of course the persons are non-permanent transients, or possibly if they live within the extrality zone (e.g. the Starport boundaries). But Cordan is a non-Imperial world, so they are NOT Imperial citizens, and extrality would depend on how Cordan runs its Starports anyway, and likely would make no differentiation for population purposes in any event.

Alternatively, the UWP on TavellerMap (and other related public files) are "in-Universe" data, and not "authorial voice" from the setting publishers, and are based on the dataset of the in-setting published IISS Second Survey of 1065, and may have errors, omissions, changes since the publication, or other oddities to be explained.

Perhaps therein lies a tale to unravel: How did the IISS Second Survey get published with a restricted population dataset; at whose request, at whose "payment" (or on what agreed arrangement), and for what purpose? And how well-known/far spread is the "secret"?

 

[MasterGwydion]

Pop-code in the UWP should normally include the total World population, period (Imperial or otherwise).

Should, but there are numerous examples of this not being the case.

Unless of course the persons are non-permanent transients, or possibly if they live within the extrality zone (e.g. the Starport boundaries). But Cordan is a non-Imperial world, so they are NOT Imperial citizens, and extrality would depend on how Cordan runs its Starports anyway, and likely would make no differentiation for population purposes in any event.

Which is why I was asking if anyone knew of any situations like this within the 3rd Imperium.

Alternatively, the UWP on TavellerMap (and other related public files) are "in-Universe" data, and not "authorial voice" from the setting publishers, and are based on the dataset of the in-setting published IISS Second Survey of 1065, and may have errors, omissions, changes since the publication, or other oddities to be explained.

Right, and when those oddities are explained in Canon material as not including the entire permanent population, then it is "authoritative". (such as with Cordan)

 

[phavoc]

Census records are done by the decade (or at least are done that way here), and transient populations in any census area are usually not counted. So people passing through in hotels, rentals and the like don't get counted as local citizens during a census. Others, like refugees who have been there for a long period with no place to go would get counted (or at least should using US Census rules).

No matter who does it you'll always have a variance for things like that. In general, any census estimate is a best guess and should be accurate within a 2-5% percentage points.

Counting people at, for example, the starport is relatively straightforward. Even if the population of worker is transient, so long as the overall count remains roughly the same, then counting Bob, who was replace by Sue, who got replaced by Do'ug still counts as a single person for population estimates.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Census records are done by the decade (or at least are done that way here), and transient populations in any census area are usually not counted. So people passing through in hotels, rentals and the like don't get counted as local citizens during a census. Others, like refugees who have been there for a long period with no place to go would get counted (or at least should using US Census rules).

No matter who does it you'll always have a variance for things like that. In general, any census estimate is a best guess and should be accurate within a 2-5% percentage points.

Counting people at, for example, the starport is relatively straightforward. Even if the population of worker is transient, so long as the overall count remains roughly the same, then counting Bob, who was replace by Sue, who got replaced by Do'ug still counts as a single person for population estimates.

Right, but in Traveller these can vary by orders of magnitude, just between who is counted and other permanent residents. My question is, are those sophonts, who are not counted on those Imperial Worlds, still Imperial Citizens?

 

[Condottiere]

Census is usually done by household occupancy.

Considering that the Normans managed a pretty decent effort, and the Romans had citizen rolls, not impossible.

 

[boggo2300]

Census records are done by the decade (or at least are done that way here), and transient populations in any census area are usually not counted. So people passing through in hotels, rentals and the like don't get counted as local citizens during a census. Others, like refugees who have been there for a long period with no place to go would get counted (or at least should using US Census rules).

No matter who does it you'll always have a variance for things like that. In general, any census estimate is a best guess and should be accurate within a 2-5% percentage points.

Counting people at, for example, the starport is relatively straightforward. Even if the population of worker is transient, so long as the overall count remains roughly the same, then counting Bob, who was replace by Sue, who got replaced by Do'ug still counts as a single person for population estimates.

The Australian Census Bureau definitely DOES take note of people in hotels and rentals (half of the Australian population lives in rented houses or apartments) and indeed if you are away from home on Census night you need to note that on your census (ie where you are)

 

[rinku]

Well, there's a few approaches here.

1) The UWP code is an absolute, objective figure, and includes populations of undiscovered aliens, lost colonies etc. Referee and Player information may differ. A world may need to have multiple sub-population figures, but in practice you could just use the largest one if it's an order of magnitude larger than the others.

2) The UWP code is a tax head count. Slaves, Androids, Indigenous aliens and other types beneath the notice of proper people are ignored. Alternatively, it's an economic head count. Non-citizen workers do count, but not the unemployed or uncivilised.

3) Something between the two (which is what we have using the IISS Survey framing device), where it will vary from world to world. Numbers don't make sense? Well, heck, it was what old Mackee recorded back in 1050. Maybe it's changed, or they made a mistake?

 

[Geir]

The real question becomes: Is the UWP population the IISS's best scientific guess or is it influenced by local politics?

For instance census haven't been conducted in Lebanon since 1932 because it would upset the religious/political balance. Going by the official nearly century-old number, there were 875,000 people in the country. There are now really more than 5 million people in residence, including over a million refugees of Syrian or Palestinian origin. Nobody would seriously consider the population digit for the country to be POP 5 instead of 6, but whether the number of millions were 4 or 5, that would be harder to say.

 

[rinku]

As with many things in a game setting, there's usually a need for godlike absolute knowledge on the part of the Referee and what the players get told

It's probably simplest to treat the official data as public (player) information unless otherwise noted.

 

[Condottiere]

As I recall from The Day Of The Jackal, the French took daily rosters from hotels.

There was a discussion on census, and it was mentioned there tends to be three automatic registrations:

1. Birth certificate

2. Kindergarten registration

3. Tax returns

Also, if subsidies are based on numbers, bureaucrats tend to be inclined to exaggerate them, which is probably why the Chinese are short of, at least, a hundred million.

At the same time, if there is population control, you equally could have quite a number of unregistered children.

 

[rinku]

Well, that depends on the reasons for the population control.

If it's due to limited life support (including living room), the extra kids are going to get detected.

 

[MasterGwydion]

At the same time, if there is population control, you equally could have quite a number of unregistered children.

But, are they Imperial Citizens?

 

[Condottiere]

If it's birthright, and the planet is part of the Imperium, yes.

Officially, depends on registration protocol.

I'm inclined to think, local starport clerk.

 

[phavoc]

Right, but in Traveller these can vary by orders of magnitude, just between who is counted and other permanent residents. My question is, are those sophonts, who are not counted on those Imperial Worlds, still Imperial Citizens?

I'm not sure why there would be an issue as far as the count goes. Each world would do it in the same time frame simultaneously across the Imperium. Some will be more efficient than others, and some will resist the accuracy (those worlds within the Imperium that are not imperial-friendly), but there are ways around that. The accuracy may not be as good as others, but that just means that planet won't reap possible benefits from an accurate survey.

As far as citizenship goes, that would depend on if you were one to start or not. Transients would not get auto-citizenship just by being there during a count. And everyone who wants their imperial citizenship ID has to prove they are eligible for it. That's not census dependent.

 

[phavoc]

The Australian Census Bureau definitely DOES take note of people in hotels and rentals (half of the Australian population lives in rented houses or apartments) and indeed if you are away from home on Census night you need to note that on your census (ie where you are)

Well, a hotel is different than an apartment or condominium. And while some people are semi-permament residents in a hotel, I think they are the exception to the rule.

By default census efforts are best guess and somewhat voluntary. A person can easily avoid being counted if they choose to do so. Just as people can get overlooked.

That's why after the census process is completed its tweaked to try and make the data as accurate as is possible (which it's never accurate. As long as it's within the accepted error of margin it's considered complete). In the US the Census Bureau says it's overall error of margin for the 2020 census was .24% of the overall population. It's hard to dispute without their own data though. At some point you have to accept and move on unless you can prove otherwise (and there were many disputes to the data since in the US a lot of formulaic data depends on population - not just citizenship).

 

[boggo2300]

Well, a hotel is different than an apartment or condominium. And while some people are semi-permament residents in a hotel, I think they are the exception to the rule.

By default census efforts are best guess and somewhat voluntary. A person can easily avoid being counted if they choose to do so. Just as people can get overlooked.

That's why after the census process is completed its tweaked to try and make the data as accurate as is possible (which it's never accurate. As long as it's within the accepted error of margin it's considered complete). In the US the Census Bureau says it's overall error of margin for the 2020 census was .24% of the overall population. It's hard to dispute without their own data though. At some point you have to accept and move on unless you can prove otherwise (and there were many disputes to the data since in the US a lot of formulaic data depends on population - not just citizenship).

The census in Australia is not voluntary, and is cross-referenced with the electoral rolls (being registered to vote is also compulsory)

 

[rinku]

And the hoteliers etc are required to report.

Technically it's the Census of Population and Housing.

"The people not counted in the 2021 Census include:

• People in Australian external territories (minor islands such as Heard and McDonald Island)
• Foreign diplomats and their families (derived from the Vienna Convention)
• Foreign crew members on ships who remain on the ship and do not undertake migration formalities
• People leaving an Australian port for an overseas destination before midnight on Census Night."

 

[MasterGwydion]

I'm not sure why there would be an issue as far as the count goes. Each world would do it in the same time frame simultaneously across the Imperium. Some will be more efficient than others, and some will resist the accuracy (those worlds within the Imperium that are not imperial-friendly), but there are ways around that. The accuracy may not be as good as others, but that just means that planet won't reap possible benefits from an accurate survey.

As far as citizenship goes, that would depend on if you were one to start or not. Transients would not get auto-citizenship just by being there during a count. And everyone who wants their imperial citizenship ID has to prove they are eligible for it. That's not census dependent.

Then who does the count? The individual planets or the IISS? If it is the individual planets, does that mean that planetary or balkanized governments decide who is a citizen of the Imperium and who is not or does the Imperial government determine that? All of the books say that the UWP of a world is determined by the IISS.