Updated Vehicle Handbook in the works

It is a problem if you scale directly, but it is fit for purpose: robots and battledress, or things that go inside a person-sized thing. [snip]

For a complete rewrite, it would need to be adjusted. Or would it? I can argue both ways and probably just confuse and annoy myself. But not the problem of the month. Need to make sure vehicles work and don't overpower or underpower spaceships.
I think the current Vehicle Handbook is demonstrably not fit for purpose; which is precisely why an update is needed. The current Vehicle Handbook is the root cause of several things which seriously hamper compatibility and interoperability between Ships, Vehicles, and Robots. By far the biggest, most glaring fault is the supposed 'simplicity' -- since Vehicle Handbook refuses to track power, nothing that uses power can possibly ever be made compatible. That causes problems with Structures, too. And Robots.

Since much of the interior volume of a Vehicle is handwaved to 'simplify' design, there are clumsy 'customizations' which allow things like 'better fuel efficiency' or 'less fuel tankage' -- all of which can cause weird, TARDIS-like side-effects. Since this is handwave is done 'to account for the drivetrain' -- something that absolutely should be explicitly left to the choice of the vehicle-designer -- it creates problematic knock-on effects. One specific example is that a 'fusion power plant' can be added to a Vehicle; but it is in addition to the powerplant which is already included in the chassis. Just let the vehicle-designer choose what goes into their vehicle; High Guard (which, in an ideal world, would be compatible with the VHU) already does this.

If I do animals... I mean 'things that are alive*'... next, they won't have Slots... but they might have Size.

*Those who experience life?
I think it can be easily argued that animals can be Robot slot-scale (and smaller) as well as well as Vehicle space-scale (and larger!). I think this is a very strong argument in favor of consistent-scaling-factor; all that it would take is a few errata to Robots (which keep their very implausible 256 slots per dTon). 1 dTon x16 = 16 Vehicle 'spaces', x16 = 256 Robot 'slots'.

All of the work gets easier and better with 1} a consistent scaling, and 2} allowing vehicle-designers to choose what goes into their Vehicles.
 
By far the biggest, most glaring fault is the supposed 'simplicity' -- since Vehicle Handbook refuses to track power, nothing that uses power can possibly ever be made compatible. That causes problems with Structures, too. And Robots.
That I can actually fix with a rather simple table or two. I think.

It would actually solve a conundrum on how to account for a separate power plant for some of the infrastructure stuff. I'm sure you won't be delighted, but it should be workable. Just need to back it in so it doesn't contradict the High Guard table... It would help for mounting starship weapons on vehicles, too. I'll look at it tonight or tomorrow at the latest.
 
It is a problem if you scale directly, but it is fit for purpose: robots and battledress, or things that go inside a person-sized thing. Not well fitted for things that go in vehicles or spaceships.

For a complete rewrite, it would need to be adjusted. Or would it? I can argue both ways and probably just confuse and annoy myself. But not the problem of the month. Need to make sure vehicles work and don't overpower or underpower spaceships.

If I do animals... I mean 'things that are alive*'... next, they won't have Slots... but they might have Size.

*Those who experience life?
Why wouldn't animals have Slots? Consider them genetic "Augments". Then it is easy to modify animals for different environments and levels of challenge. Then humans could have slots for determining cybernetics. The whole system would be pretty awesome.
 
That I can actually fix with a rather simple table or two. I think.

It would actually solve a conundrum on how to account for a separate power plant for some of the infrastructure stuff. I'm sure you won't be delighted, but it should be workable. Just need to back it in so it doesn't contradict the High Guard table... It would help for mounting starship weapons on vehicles, too. I'll look at it tonight or tomorrow at the latest.
Please do not put a kluge on top of a kluge. Just make Vehicles (and Structures) like (scaled-down) Ships; that is a genuine simplification which undoes a vast host of evils created by the 'simple' chassis system in the original VH.

Some questions: Can I build a 100+ dTon Vehicle? Can I mount a working Jump drive on that Vehicle? What about hangars full of Vehicle-scale fighters in a Fleet Carrier starship?

The precious VH had a serious lack of imagination, and made it impossible to answer those questions in a straightforward way.
 
Some questions: Can I build a 100+ dTon Vehicle?
Yes. You can build a vehicle to any arbitrary size. Of 1 Space or above, anyway (you want smaller? that's Robots)
Can I mount a working Jump drive on that Vehicle?
You want a Collector with that? (sorry, wrong thread). Yes, you could. But build it in High Guard instead.
The point is to use the Vehicle Handbook for making vehicles, not spaceships. But those vehicles should have designs that neither overwhelm or underwhelm a similarly scaled spaceship. This is not a book to replace or repeat everything in High Guard. But if you want to take a grav tank engine and stick it in a pinnace, you could do that. It might not be optimal, but it shouldn't be ridiculous and there should be a way to figure out if you have enough juice to take off. That's my side project for tonight.
What about hangars full of Vehicle-scale fighters in a Fleet Carrier starship?
That you can also already do. In High Guard, at least down to 5 dtons. If you want smaller fighters than 5 shipping tons (normally 10 Spaces), then I suppose you could do that, but I'm not putting m-drives into the book either (there is High Guard for that) so you should stick near a gravity well. But the hangar sizing problem in the current Vehicle Handbook I've fixed to match Highguard. I didn't put in launch tubes, though. That's in High Guard.

This isn't a book to make starships, or weapons, or tiny robots (but vehicle-sized robots, yes, no problem - you could build a skyscraper-tall stomping robot with flamethrowers on its ankles and eyes that shoot laser beams) or cybernetic implants. Or animals (though there is a perfectly good - well, almost certainly not perfect - way to make biotech vehicles).

I think I've made it clear that this is not Fire, Fusion, and Steel for Mongoose Traveller version 2. This is a cleaned up book for making vehicles that hopefully provides a repeatable, easy to use, but full of options format at the same level of complexity as the Robot Handbook.

If that's not the book you want, then I'm sorry, but that's the book I'm writing. The input from everyone on this thread is useful, and it is definitely helping me to resolve things unclear or forgotten, so I certainly appreciate it. But this is a Vehicle Handbook fix, not a core system re-write.
 
Why wouldn't animals have Slots? Consider them genetic "Augments". Then it is easy to modify animals for different environments and levels of challenge. Then humans could have slots for determining cybernetics. The whole system would be pretty awesome.
Wouldn't that be already covered by animal traits?
 
"an economy class passenger typically has around 0.50 cubic meters of space"
And the average man can’t fit comfortable which is one of the most common problems with air travel, I’m 6’4” and I can not fly unless I buy at a minimum two seats. It’s a common requirement these days for a passenger to be forced to buy multiple seats because airline seats are no were near large enough. There are also studies that say modern airline seats are actually a hazard.


Using airline seating as a baseline is unrealistic at best.
 
Yes. You can build a vehicle to any arbitrary size. Of 1 Space or above, anyway (you want smaller? that's Robots)

You want a Collector with that? (sorry, wrong thread). Yes, you could. But build it in High Guard instead.
The point is to use the Vehicle Handbook for making vehicles, not spaceships. But those vehicles should have designs that neither overwhelm or underwhelm a similarly scaled spaceship. This is not a book to replace or repeat everything in High Guard. But if you want to take a grav tank engine and stick it in a pinnace, you could do that. It might not be optimal, but it shouldn't be ridiculous and there should be a way to figure out if you have enough juice to take off. That's my side project for tonight.
Perfect. I am not asking for a 'repeat of the content in High Guard'; I am just asking for reasonable interoperability with High Guard.

That you can also already do. In High Guard, at least down to 5 dtons. If you want smaller fighters than 5 shipping tons (normally 10 Spaces), then I suppose you could do that, but I'm not putting m-drives into the book either (there is High Guard for that) so you should stick near a gravity well. But the hangar sizing problem in the current Vehicle Handbook I've fixed to match Highguard. I didn't put in launch tubes, though. That's in High Guard.
'Shipping tonnage' is awful, and needs to go away; it mangles the already nonsensical 'spaces to dTons' conversion. If people know how many dTons a vehicle takes, then putting them on a ship is already covered by the rules written in High Guard, from whether they are crated up & stacked in the cargo hold, in a dedicated 'docking space' (for an additional 10%), in a Full Hangar (for an additional 100%), or space-station style Docking Facility (for an additional 200%). Or being spat out at high velocity from a launch-tube.

There is -- except for specifying 'This vehicle can be broken down to be more compact for shipping' -- absolutely no need for the 'shipping tonnage' stat; it is a waste of paper, of ink, and of effort.
This isn't a book to make starships, or weapons, or tiny robots (but vehicle-sized robots, yes, no problem - you could build a skyscraper-tall stomping robot with flamethrowers on its ankles and eyes that shoot laser beams) or cybernetic implants. Or animals (though there is a perfectly good - well, almost certainly not perfect - way to make biotech vehicles).

I think I've made it clear that this is not Fire, Fusion, and Steel for Mongoose Traveller version 2. This is a cleaned up book for making vehicles that hopefully provides a repeatable, easy to use, but full of options format at the same level of complexity as the Robot Handbook.

If that's not the book you want, then I'm sorry, but that's the book I'm writing. The input from everyone on this thread is useful, and it is definitely helping me to resolve things unclear or forgotten, so I certainly appreciate it. But this is a Vehicle Handbook fix, not a core system re-write.
I am not asking for a core system rewrite here; just a fix of a broken system which causes innumerable problems throughout other books.

Your 'put a Grav vehicle drive on a Small Craft' is a perfect illustration -- that is the kind of choice that a vehicle-designer should get. Or maybe build a fast, light, Vehicle-scale 'fighter craft' with really good starship-scale sensors -- but that requires being able to use starship-scale power points. Since the problematic approach in the previous Vehicle handbook broke this by steadfastly making it impossible to convert (or even use) power points, just discard the approach which is creating the problems.

Since the old VH needs to be re-written, do not treat the contents of that book as 'something which deserves to be saved'. All the concepts and false 'simplifications' need to be discarded; they are not a valuable asset, they are a hindrance.
 
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Your 'put a Grav vehicle drive on a Small Craft' is a perfect illustration -- that is the kind of choice that a vehicle-designer should get. Or maybe build a fast, light, Vehicle-scale 'fighter craft' with really good starship-scale sensors -- but that requires being able to use starship-scale power points. Since the problematic approach in the previous Vehicle handbook broke this by steadfastly making it impossible to convert (or even use) power points, just discard the approach which is creating the problems.
Your fighter craft would be useless outside of 10d of the planet and there’s already a planetary fighter equivalent it’s call a speeder. As for power points it’s been pointed out repeatedly that one of the goals is to limit complexity so the system is useful for everyone. If 5ed D&D has shown us anything it is that the average player want playability over complexity. The goal is a product with the appeal to sell to as much of the Traveller audience as possible not to cater to a minority that wants the book to be an engineering thesis.
 
You know I’ve been arguing that the meson accelerator in the CSC is wrong I’m going to retract that with some caveats. A meson gun bypass armor because the meson’s decay inside of the target, this is hard enough in a 6 minute ship combat round. To make it work in the 6 second vehicle combat round you require a large targeting and directing system which takes up a large space hence the meson accelerator 60 tons in size. It also has very long range and is most suitable for a wet navy battle ship or a ORG. That saying this is not an artillery weapon it’s a defense weapon. I propose a meson artillery weapon also at TL 15

Meson Artillery TL: 15, Range: 50, Damage: 3DD, Tons: 7, Traits: Artillery (in direct fire only), Blast 40, Radiation

Notice this does not have armor piercing that’s because this system lacks the tracking and targeting capabilities of the larger unit and is intended as an energy artillery weapon (the only practical one). As an artillery unit it attacks an area not the insides of a vehicle. With this we explain both the size of the meson accelerator and create a viable meson artillery unit that can be built into the size of a MAW (10 to 12 tons).
 
Outside of power consumption, rate of fire.

How fast can an energy weapon system shoot every six seconds, and if, presumably, capacitors, can recover during that period.
 
That I can actually fix with a rather simple table or two. I think.
I can only get it to work with power sources beginning with "F". Chemical plants in High Guard are actually a little broken, and antimatter is a little out of the TL range (TL20 is a bit too far for this). Fusion+ almost breaks the system, but not completely. Still, I get power points out without breaking anything, and if you don't install extra power for your starship grade weapons, you need to slow down or land to fire. Only partly solves my power plant infrastructure issue, but at least it gives me a wedge to start.
 
I haven't.

But, you know, the fusion gun, man portable, could continuously stream for, twenty four hours?

And, apparently, you never run out of autocannon rounds.
 
Outside of power consumption, rate of fire.

How fast can an energy weapon system shoot every six seconds, and if, presumably, capacitors, can recover during that period.
Generally speaking artillery doesn’t do rapid fire they instead do burst fire. Fire a bunch of rounds then wait 5, 10, 30 minutes or longer before firing again. Also ship class weapons are vastly more powerful, the more powerful the higher energy required.
 
We have turrets that can traverse, and keep that bead on the target.
Not the same thing the turret targets the outside of the moving target a meson gun bypasses armor by targeting the inside that requires a much more precise attack. Plus Meson guns are large the smallest one you can put on a ship is a small bay at 35 tons. The artillery meson gun is not in a turret (most mobile land based artillery are not in turrets) it would be closer to being a spinal mount for the vehicle
 
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[[[Box Text]]]

Spaceship-scale Power
A vehicle is assumed to have enough power available to operate its systems and manoeuvre at its maximum rated velocity. In most cases, this is a reasonable assumption, but when adding power-hungry spaceship-scale options, it may exceed its power rating. Many of these systems will not function without a fission, fusion, or Fusion+ system installed in the vehicle. A power point value per Space is associated with each of these power options. At the size required for regular operations, these power plants are scaled to fully support a vehicle’s non-spacecraft rated options and drive systems, but any options or weapons derived from the Traveller Core Rulebook or High Guard which require power points must have additional power available, or the vehicle’s performance will degrade.

A vehicle can fire spaceship-scale weapons and operate spacecraft-scale systems normally if they require less than 10% of the vehicle’s total PP. If the weapon requires more, it must reduce its Maximum Speed Band by 1 for every full 10% and may need to be stationary in order to fire more power-hungry weapons. If the weapons require more than 100%, they cannot be fired at all. To support additional power, the vehicle can install more Spaces of its primary power system.

[[[End Box]]]

Then this seems to work for power points per Space... might need tweaking
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Probably going to change 'Fusion Plus' to 'Fusion+' so it doesn't sound like underwear for those who are experiencing higher values of BMI, but even though the Zhunastu dynasty tech was pulled almost directly from T4 FFS, it is not exactly lining up with costs for starship grade power plants, hence the lower power numbers. It fixes most of the vehicle range numbers*, though (preview should be in a JTAS article). All of the power systems need work, but this glue should hold for a bit.

(Yes, I know, covering the scar with plastic surgery, not fixing the malfunctioning body part below, but the real question for the 95% out there is: can this work in the game without getting a headache. The 5% will have to take my apology and do with it as they please.)

*This entire thing started because I could not make the hovercraft in Sky Raiders have enough range. And then I kept screwing up vehicle design in general and failed once again to make a functional spreadsheet for it. One thing led to another and then I bounced the Vehicle Handbook off a wall and pretty much begged to be allowed to update it.
 
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