Updated Vehicle Handbook in the works

[Geir]

And here are the links to the NASA studies in case you missed them back on page 20

Man-Systems Integration Standards (MSIS)

Can't find the updated document as yet.

and no sooner do I post that...

NASA Spaceflight Human-System Standard Volume 1, Crew Health | Standards

standards.nasa.gov

NASA Spaceflight Human-System Standard Volume 2: Human Factors, Habitability, and Environmental Health | Standards

standards.nasa.gov

Human Integration Design Handbook - NASA

A companion document to NASA-STD-3001 Volume 2 is the Human Integration Design Handbook (HIDH). The HIDH is a compendium of human space flight

www.nasa.gov

But couldn't find a direct number there, but followed some breadcrumbs to:
"DRAFT 2 Reference Library - Attachment A13 - Net Hab Vol SA-16-156 - Level II CMO HMTA Memo"

Attachment_A13_Net_Hab_Vol_SA-16-156__Level_II_CMO_HMTA_Memo.pdf

Attachment_A13_Net_Hab_Vol_SA-16-156__Level_II_CMO_HMTA_Memo.pdf - Appendix H: Human Landing System Integrated Lander - Solicitation NNH19ZCQ001K_APPENDIX-H - Posted 2019-09-04T11:51:00-04:00 - DRAFT 2 Reference Library - Attachment A13 - Net Hab Vol SA-16-156 - Level II CMO HMTA Memo

govtribe.com

And this table:


Admittedly more valuable for determining spaceship crew requirements, but interesting nonetheless.

 

[Geir]

Still haven't found what I'm looking for (yeah, that's a song), but NASA provides this handy chart:

With handy footnotes....

Notice the 8 pukes per day for the first 3 days... and equivalent amount coming out the other end for the first 2 days... not sure I'm up for an orbital flight.

 

[J. L. Brown]

There is also an aisle, an overhead bin, and other space surrounding the exits, so I suspect the average is a lot more. Plus, that space is often computed without accounting for the space of the seats themselves. (I was going to check if the volume dimensions for passenger space accounted for seats and things in my car, but then decide that my methodology (buying manure by the 'cubic yard' (close enough) and seeing how much I could pour in there would probably impact resale value.

The Boeing 747-800 has a passenger cabin volume of 876 cubic meters; and could be configured to carry up to 850 economy-class passengers -- 1.03 cubic meters per passenger, including aisles, storage bins, emergency equipment, freshers, galleys, and so on.

The Airbus A380-800 was originally offered with a 833 economy-passenger configuration in about 1001 cubic meters, about 1.2 cubic meters per economy passenger. Again, that includes all space for personal items, amenities, freshers, and emergency equipment.

While it seems correct that 3.5 cubic meters is not enough 'to hold 20 passengers', it is still much too large a volume for soldiers, economy-class passengers, or standing-room-only refugees.

Again, I love your idea for 'Clown Seating'! It works out to (a rather cramped but minimally acceptable) 0.875 cubic meters per passenger -- but amenities are probably in addition to that. Even so, 0.875 m^3 is a volume 75 cm x 75 cm x 155 cm, which is a very comfortable chair; economy airline seats are around 43 cm wide.

 

[Geir]

Some draft wording, including the clowns (I should offer a pro forma apology to people who identify as clowns, but that is a bridge too far).

Comfort Points and Levels​

Certain items in the Option chapter’s Creature Comforts section have a Comfort Point (CP) rating, usually one per Space. Each minimal seat Space has a Comfort Point of one. The total Comfort Points, divided by the sophont’s Space size and by the number of occupants is the total Comfort Level of the vehicle. If the Comfort Level number lies at the border of two levels, the better level applies.

Comfort Level​

Comfort Level	Comfort	Effect
Less than 0.5*	Intolerable	Immediate DM-2 to all tasks, plus DM-2 per 4 hours
Less than 1	Uncomfortable Seating	DM-1 after 4 hours, plus DM-1 per 4 hours
1-1.25	Basic Seating	DM-1 after 8 hours, plus DM-1 per 8 hours
1.25-1.5	Long Duration Seating	DM-1 after 24 hours, plus DM-1 per 24 hours
1.5-2	Extended Seating	DM-1 after 48 hours, plus DM-1 per 24 hours
2-4	Basic Comfort	DM-1 after 1 week, plus DM-1 per week†
4-8	Standard Comfort	DM-1 after 1 month, plus DM-1 per month†
8-24	Good Comfort	No negative effect
24-40	Excellent Comfort	No negative effect, recovery for Comfort Levels 2-8
40+	Luxury Comfort	For society’s elites, recovery for Comfort Levels 2-8

*A lower limit for Comfort Level, sometimes referred to as ‘Clown Seating’ is usually about 0.25, but the Referee may impose different limits for emergency situations.

†Negative DM limited to DM-2

 

[Nelphine]

ooo we need to apply that to staterooms too (or is it in the new HG and i missed it)

 

[J. L. Brown]

Some draft wording, including the clowns (I should offer a pro forma apology to people who identify as clowns, but that is a bridge too far).

Comfort Points and Levels​

[snip]
If the Comfort Level number lies at the border of two levels, the better level applies.

May I suggest using the worst of the two levels instead? I could see folks wanting to min-max this.

Also, the 'clown seating' comment is confusing; on the one hand you are discussing 'comfort points per sophont' and on the other hand you are discussing 'spaces dedicated to seating'. They are similar-ish, but not the same. Also the 'clown seating' comment mentions '0.25' as something that ought to be on the table but '0.5' is already mentioned as 'intolerable' -- and intolerable ought not to be an invitation to players to allocate less space.

 

[Geir]

May I suggest using the worst of the two levels instead? I could see folks wanting to min-max this.

I'd like to give a design credit for including an extra Space or a tiny fresher for four people, but didn't want to write it as 1-1.24, 1.25-1.46, etc, because in a complex mix on a large vehicle there is rounding, so that would make me need to write 1.24999999 and then it get's silly - or 1 - 'less than 1.2 ; 1.25 to less than 1.5' for instance would also work, but it's faster just to write it with a comment once. Yes, people could design right up to the limits, but that's hardly any different than tweaking specs on a car to get a better rating, but just barely. Unless I'm misunderstanding your meaning..

 

[Condottiere]

If I recall correctly, Darrians might need more space, and are communestic.

 

[Geir]

ooo we need to apply that to staterooms too (or is it in the new HG and i missed it)

It's not, but I want it to be. Otherwise all that extra common space and fancy add-ons is just fluff with no game effect but scenery description. I'd like anything important enough to include in a design actual do something, besides cost money and eat Space (well, I did include a 'luxury exterior' set of options that literally just adds cost, but at least I correlated it to SOC or at least the SOC you want to project. (Though I've notice a tendency for the really rich to buy and drive Volvo station wagons and ignore what people think - that's both 'wealth camouflage' and a statement that the opinions of others is beneath your notice.)

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

That gets a bit tricky around range.
The firmpoint rules limiting range to about 10 km rears it's ugly head. You can drop a D off the DD easy enough, but range gets problematic.

In some future version I'm in favour of making sensors, not size the differentiator of spacecraft range (well, the weapons will still have range limitations but the nerfing of a weapon, even if turret installed, to Adjacent or Close range because it's on a sub-100 ton platform) is one of the things that make my teeth grind) - that and the magical turret size that lets you store 12 missiles and 20 sandcaster canisters regardless of what else in in there (so a triple turret with missile, sand, beam, 12 missiles, and 20 canisters will all fit in the 1 ton turret, but stored separately, not so much) - of course I want hardpoints (unconfigured, still use a dton) back as well.

So to answer your question. Not sure how to do it, other than dropping a D.

Oddly enough, if you repurpose the Point-Defense Turret into a "Firmpoint Turret", you get a reasonable facsimile and explanation.
I also agree with you- sensors and fire control become the big differentiator (which is why I like the "firmpoint turret" idea), and they can have Advantages of longer range or (gasp) auto fire for higher tech levels.

There is also leeway for fixed mounts getting larger weapons (why can't I fixed mount torpedoes?)

Although, I thought firmpoint turrets carry less (4 missiles, four canisters)

 

[Geir]

Although, I thought firmpoint turrets carry less (4 missiles, four canisters)

Yeah, sorry, I was multi-griping.

 

[Geir]

Found it! (sort of)

 

[Geir]

Apollo crew got a space:

 

[Geir]

Finally, a formula (2 dtons for long term missions, sounds okay to me)


All sorts of volume info follows for various functional stuff in

https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/human_integration_design_handbook_revision_1.pdf

Starting about page 660

 

[J. L. Brown]

Finally, a formula (2 dtons for long term missions, sounds okay to me)
View attachment 2336

All sorts of volume info follows for various functional stuff in

https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/human_integration_design_handbook_revision_1.pdf

Starting about page 660

I do not think guidelines for TL 6 zero-G spacecraft is a good baseline for vehicles in general. Passenger cars and main battle tanks generally do not operate in that same sort of environment; and vehicles seem to be typically designed for occupation only for a few hours at a time.

 

[Geir]

I do not think guidelines for TL 6 zero-G spacecraft is a good baseline for vehicles in general. Passenger cars and main battle tanks generally do not operate in that same sort of environment; and vehicles seem to be typically designed for occupation only for a few hours at a time.

Agreed.
But it's useful for longer duration vehicles, like ships, transcontinental railway cars and such, - there's a table a few pages beyond those tables that covers DoD info, and the data might feed into Pioneer tweaking.

 

[Sigtrygg]

2 dtons 180d habitability
0.5 dtons 7d habitability
0.5 dtons standing activities
0.25 dtons seated at extended workstation
0.125 dton seated at workstation - cockpit, tank driver

 

[J. L. Brown]

Agreed.
But it's useful for longer duration vehicles, like ships, transcontinental railway cars and such, - there's a table a few pages beyond those tables that covers DoD info, and the data might feed into Pioneer tweaking.

And we can dig up actual data from real ships, transcontinental railway cars, and such too.

 

[Sigtrygg]

So if we can use real world data can we start to correct the scale of things, especially the conversion between dtons spaces and slots - hate to say it but slots is the massive outlier.

 

[Geir]

So if we can use real world data can we start to correct the scale of things, especially the conversion between dtons spaces and slots - hate to say it but slots is the massive outlier.

It is a problem if you scale directly, but it is fit for purpose: robots and battledress, or things that go inside a person-sized thing. Not well fitted for things that go in vehicles or spaceships.

For a complete rewrite, it would need to be adjusted. Or would it? I can argue both ways and probably just confuse and annoy myself. But not the problem of the month. Need to make sure vehicles work and don't overpower or underpower spaceships.

If I do animals... I mean 'things that are alive*'... next, they won't have Slots... but they might have Size.

*Those who experience life?