Traveller Manufacturing Rules

[MasterGwydion]

The math comes out to a roughly 10GCr mining and production facility (only counting the Mineral Refinery and the Manufacturing Plants, not the power generation and other such things) per 1680Dtons of goods per month.

 

[J. L. Brown]

The math comes out to a roughly 10GCr mining and production facility (only counting the Mineral Refinery and the Manufacturing Plants, not the power generation and other such things) per 1680Dtons of goods per month.

How long until those investments pay back?

 

[MasterGwydion]

How long until those investments pay back?

Centuries. lol

 

[J. L. Brown]

Centuries. lol

That does not seem viable; nobody would take the risk spending that much money to build them in the first place. A ten-year horizon might be a reasonable payback time, but centuries is (hat tip to Monty Python) 'Right out'.

 

[MasterGwydion]

That does not seem viable; nobody would take the risk spending that much money to build them in the first place. A ten-year horizon might be a reasonable payback time, but centuries is (hat tip to Monty Python) 'Right out'.

Yeah, that part is horrible and 90% of the costs are personnel. Otherwise, you'd be paying it off in decades, not centuries.

 

[Condottiere]

Centuries requires government intervention.

Twenty years would be about the norm.

It's degraded to five years, and you have to cover the investments that failed during the same funding round.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I also added a High-Tech Modifier. For every TL above the minimum add 25% to the cost and -10% to the tonnage.

So, the whole project came out like this...

Buy the Initial Mining and Manufacturing Module for just over 2GCr. Transport Costs aren't included as they will vary with location.

Put the module down on a world with a Starport of D or less.

In less than 17 years, you will have a Class-C Starport (built from scratch), 10 Heavy Fighters, 1 - 400ton SDB, 50 Triple Pulse Laser Turrets, 50 Triple Missile Rack Turrets, 10 Meson Screens, 10 Nuclear Dampners, 10 Type-III Point Defense Laser Batteries, and have a production of 500MCr per month.

That seems a lot more reasonable that what is in the books.

 

[J. L. Brown]

I also added a High-Tech Modifier. For every TL above the minimum add 25% to the cost and -10% to the tonnage.

So, the whole project came out like this...

Buy the Initial Mining and Manufacturing Module for just over 2GCr. Transport Costs aren't included as they will vary with location.

Put the module down on a world with a Starport of D or less.

In less than 17 years, you will have a Class-C Starport (built from scratch), 10 Heavy Fighters, 1 - 400ton SDB, 50 Triple Pulse Laser Turrets, 50 Triple Missile Rack Turrets, 10 Meson Screens, 10 Nuclear Dampners, 10 Type-III Point Defense Laser Batteries, and have a production of 500MCr per month.

That seems a lot more reasonable that what is in the books.

I would be interested in seeing the step-by-step breakdown of how this is done, including what goes into the first module & how many colonists are sent.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I would be interested in seeing the step-by-step breakdown of how this is done, including what goes into the first module & how many colonists are sent.

This means that I have to figure out Google Docs... Doesn't it?

 

[J. L. Brown]

This means that I have to figure out Google Docs... Doesn't it?

It would be helpful, but no. Google Docs can import stuff from other spreadsheets just fine -- if you have an Excel sheet, or similar, that works.

Most of my stuff is actually in LibreOffice, but I pull it into Google Sheets because more people can see and use it that way.

 

[swordtart]

Hmm. Coming to this a bit late as I was looking for some indication of the inputs required for manufacturing plants (as far as I can tell in High Guard they don't have any). I think the danger of building this up from the bottom without any useful information (its a future society after all) risks unintended consequences. Instead I am inclined to look at the consequences I would like in the game and make up the underlying facts to fit it.

So I am going with you can make X value of product using X/2 value of materials. What those materials are is a matter for the referee but with fabricators it could be Idontcarium. That fits with the simple statement about fabricators. Consider plastic, that can be either a petrochemical product or a biochemical product, what is future plastic it could be protein chains or carbon fibre. How much plastic does my solar powered, head bobbing, lucky cat use compared to small screws and cheap electronics. Am I buying in tiny screws or metal rod that I stamp into screws, or metal billets I roll into rod. Did I efficiency out the scerws and use glue. Did I print in place? I don't know any of this stuff and it wouldn't actually help if I did becuase I'd then be arbitarily deciding quanties anyway. What is a ton of Common Raw Materials? Currently I am tending to buy in Common Raw Materials and reverse calculating the tonnage required by how much it is worth and ignoring what the actual material is.

We know the value of products as they are set out in the Central Supply Catalogue. Of course that is a retail price. The wholesale price would be half that as that is the price at the factory door. Of course you could be manufacturing Common Raw Materials or other precursor materials (e.g. trade goods) and we know the value of those per ton from the trade tables.

Of course an actual factory doesn't double their money on every manufacturing run, they have costs - labour, rent, licencing fees, capital loan interest payments, power etc. so their actual profit would be more like 5-10%. What are the exact numbers for each of those elements? Don't care - not telling. If I did the players would try to screw an advantage. The wholesaler likewise needs to market the goods store them, ship them etc. and allow a small margin for the retailer who has a shop to keep, staff to pay etc.

Why artificially limit it to everyone getting 5-10% on their investment? Well that is a reasonable safe return on investments in the real world and if any specific investment offered a better return then everyone would invest in that and divest in other things. People lower down the chain would sense they could charge more and still secure sales and in turn their suppliers would do the same. Once you hit that magic number it will tend to self stabalise as people start refusing to make deals as their margins become too low (similar to Arbitrage).

Actually operating the factory machinery requires a profession and that gives a chance for a skill roll and maybe that allows efficeincy or waste, and a Broker could almost certainly secure materials and sell on the products for a better price. That's where the really big profits come from.

Ta da - problem solved. For me at least. YMMV

 

[J. L. Brown]

Hmm. Coming to this a bit late as I was looking for some indication of the inputs required for manufacturing plants (as far as I can tell in High Guard they don't have any). I think the danger of building this up from the bottom without any useful information (its a future society after all) risks unintended consequences. Instead I am inclined to look at the consequences I would like in the game and make up the underlying facts to fit it.

So I am going with you can make X value of product using X/2 value of materials. What those materials are is a matter for the referee but with fabricators it could be Idontcarium. That fits with the simple statement about fabricators.

We know the value of products as they are set out in the Central Supply Catalogue. Of course that is a retail price. The wholesale price would be half that and that is the price at the factory door. Of course you could be manufacturing Common Raw Materials or other precursor materials (e.g. trade goods) and we know the value of those per ton from the trade tables.

Of course an actual factory doesn't double their money on every manufacturing run, they have costs - labour, rent, licencing fees, capital loan interest payments, power etc. so their actual profit would be more like 5-10%. What are the exact numbers for each of those elements? Don't care - not telling. If I did the players would try to screw an advantage.

Why artificially limit it to 5-10%? Well that is a reasonable safe return on investments in the real world and if any specific investment offered a better return then everyone would invest in that and divest in other things. People lower down the chain would sense they could charge more and still secure sales and in turn their suppliers would do the same. Once you hit that magic number it will tend to self stabalise as people start refusing to make deals as their margins become too low (similar to Arbitrage).

Actually operating the factory machinery requires a profession and that gives a chance for a skill roll and maybe that allows efficeincy or waste, and a Broker could almost certainly secure materials and sell on the products for a better price. That's where the really big profits come from.

I think Mongoose gets into trouble by mixing 'Credits' and 'dTons' for manufacturing plants; if a plant simply took in X Cr worth of feedstock, and produced 1.1X Cr of (wholesale priced) finished product, then that would be fine. Instead, all we have is 'Labor' and 'Power' inputs and 'dTons worth of output.

 

[swordtart]

I think Mongoose gets into trouble by mixing 'Credits' and 'dTons' for manufacturing plants; if a plant simply took in X Cr worth of feedstock, and produced 1.1X Cr of (wholesale priced) finished product, then that would be fine. Instead, all we have is 'Labor' and 'Power' inputs and 'dTons worth of output.

It isn't an issue as the percentage profit doesn't indicate a time frame to achieve that profit. You can get that from the ton/Dton per day and considering it one of the trade group categories.

So to produce 1 DTon of Common Consumables (Cr500) would take Cr250 in materials which could be food (or oxygen, firewood or paper etc. depending on your definition of Common Consumable), plus packaging material etc. so who knows what trade good you would need to provide and how many DTons that would be hence - Idontcarium* You would also be spending in the order of Cr200-225 per ton in running costs leaving Cr25-50 per DTon profit.

Now if you had a little factory it might take you 10 days to produce that much, in a big factory you might produce several tons a day. None of that affects the cost of materials per DTon of output, just how long it takes you to get through those input materials and how quickly you produce the outputs. The rules care about the speed of production of outputs not speed of consumption of inputs. If you want a number just choose one, 2:1 1:1 or 1:2 don't seem wrong to me. A lot of the input material could be packaging and that could be recycled or not. If you think it is powders and filaments it might be less than the output volume as most packaged manufactured things have empty space in the packaging if nothing else (you know those half-filled spice tubs - contents may settle... yeah right!)

If you manufatcured a Dton of Robots, you don't need to specify a particular model. You just need to work out how many of those robots you need to get the value of a DTon of that trade goods and that is how many is in a DTon. It could be 10,000's of mouse bots, a few construction bots, a mix of various types or just parts. I doubt you actually need to know to use the manufacturing plant in the game. Specific product details are generally only needed if you are making one for yourself and then you wouldn't be using a plant.

*OK, truth, I am not comfortable with Idontcarium either. I really use a mix of 80% Common, 20% Uncommon Raw Materials as my feedstock.

 

[Terry Mixon]

It isn't an issue as the percentage profit doesn't indicate a time frame to achieve that profit. You can get that from the ton/Dton per day and considering it one of the trade group categories.

So to produce 1 DTon of Common Consumables (Cr500) would take Cr250 in materials which could be food (or oxygen, firewood or paper etc. depending on your definition of Common Consumable), plus packaging material etc. so who knows what trade good you would need to provide and how many DTons that would be hence - Idontcarium* You would also be spending in the order of Cr200-225 per ton in running costs leaving Cr25-50 per DTon profit.

Now if you had a little factory it might take you 10 days to produce that much, in a big factory you might produce several tons a day. None of that affects the cost of materials per DTon of output, just how long it takes you to get through those input materials and how quickly you produce the outputs. The rules care about the speed of production of outputs not speed of consumption of inputs. If you want a number just choose one, 2:1 1:1 or 1:2 don't seem wrong to me. A lot of the input material could be packaging and that could be recycled or not. If you think it is powders and filaments it might be less than the output volume as most packaged manufactured things have empty space in the packaging if nothing else (you know those half-filled spice tubs - contents may settle... yeah right!)

If you manufatcured a Dton of Robots, you don't need to specify a particular model. You just need to work out how many of those robots you need to get the value of a DTon of that trade goods and that is how many is in a DTon. It could be 10,000's of mouse bots, a few construction bots, a mix of various types or just parts. I doubt you actually need to know to use the manufacturing plant in the game. Specific product details are generally only needed if you are making one for yourself and then you wouldn't be using a plant.

*OK, truth, I am not comfortable with Idontcarium either. I really use a mix of 80% Common, 20% Uncommon Raw Materials as my feedstock.

I looked at what the breakdown for common and uncommon ores (and raw materials) and use that as my split. The output is 50% common and 30% uncommon, so for breaking down 100 tons of asteroid, you get 50 and 30 respectively as ore, and that is cut in half for raw materials to 25 tons and 15 tons. That gives me five parts common raw materials to 3 parts uncommon. Keeping the ratios keeps me sane.

 

[swordtart]

I looked at what the breakdown for common and uncommon ores (and raw materials) and use that as my split. The output is 50% common and 30% uncommon, so for breaking down 100 tons of asteroid, you get 50 and 30 respectively as ore, and that is cut in half for raw materials to 25 tons and 15 tons. That gives me five parts common raw materials to 3 parts uncommon. Keeping the ratios keeps me sane.

I hear you. I chose my number at random but your at least follows some logic and I may adopt it... although...

...when you read the description of Common Raw Materials they are from Ag worlds despite being metals, plastics and chemicals. Where all that metal is coming from baffles me. Are they just hitting chunks of the stuff while plowing and chucking it on a spoil heap because they don't recognise it and some offworlder is taking advantage.

I would have said plastic and chemicals are products of industrial processes, yet industrial worlds are where you sell them not where they are made. Chemicals works, smelters and refineries don't say garden world to me. Even bioplastics require some heavy duty chemical processes.

Manufacturing plastics from petrochemicals would make sense, and metals from asteroids and ore, from fields of cabbages not so much so.

I tell ye it makes no sense

 

[Terry Mixon]

I hear you. I chose my number at random but your at least follows some logic and I may adopt it... although...

...when you read the description of Common Raw Materials they are from Ag worlds despite being metals, plastics and chemicals. Where all that metal is coming from baffles me. Are they just hitting chunks of the stuff while plowing and chucking it on a spoil heap because they don't recognise it and some offworlder is taking advantage.

I would have said plastic and chemicals are products of industrial processes, yet industrial worlds are where you sell them not where they are made. Chemicals works, smelters and refineries don't say garden world to me. Even bioplastics require some heavy duty chemical processes.

Manufacturing plastics from petrochemicals would make sense, and metals from asteroids and ore, from fields of cabbages not so much so.

I tell ye it makes no sense

It does come from there and is likely organic in nature. It also comes from smelting asteroids and only 2% of that at max is organic. There is some handwavium involved, agreed.

I got the rules on mineral refining and smelting out of High Guard. I tweaked them a little to have the asteroids convert 2% (taken from the common ores section) as organic raw material and .1% of the precious metals as radioactives. That’s house rule stuff but accounts for everything.

 

[swordtart]

It does come from there and is likely organic in nature. It also comes from smelting asteroids and only 2% of that at max is organic. There is some handwavium involved, agreed.

I got the rules on mineral refining and smelting out of High Guard. I tweaked them a little to have the asteroids convert 2% (taken from the common ores section) as organic raw material and .1% of the precious metals as radioactives. That’s house rule stuff but accounts for everything.

I tended to assume the proportion of Uncommon stuff in Asteroids was higher than for planetary bodies due to the "our heavy stuff aggregated while we were still a hot liquid planet and they we got bust up by that collision" astrophysics. It does seem to contradict a lot of previous Belter Lore and the entry on Mining Drones in the same book where it indicates most asteroids produce common ore.

I think the intent is that those percentages refer to the proportions of useful outptus from refining and an unspecified percentage of the asteroid is discarded as spoil. I cannot recall seeing that percentage stated anywhere.

You'll need to rename the Uncommon Raw Materials as Marginally Less Common Raw Materials though

 

[Terry Mixon]

I tended to assume the proportion of Uncommon stuff in Asteroids was higher than for planetary bodies due to the "our heavy stuff aggregated while we were still a hot liquid planet and they we got bust up by that collision" astrophysics. It does seem to contradict a lot of previous Belter Lore and the entry on Mining Drones in the same book where it indicates most asteroids produce common ore.

I think the intent is that those percentages refer to the proportions of useful outptus from refining and an unspecified percentage of the asteroid is discarded as spoil. I cannot recall seeing that percentage stated anywhere.

You'll need to rename the Uncommon Raw Materials as Marginally Less Common Raw Materials though

Yep, that seems logical. Still, these are the rules as written, so I worked them in as well as I could.

 

[J. L. Brown]

The problem with the 'convert dTons from Credits' approach is two-fold. First, some specific things are far expensive per item than per dTon -- I am not near my books but an astromech robot seems like a single human-sized robot would end up occupying a dozen dTons.

Second is waste or scrap from the inputs; say a utility droid is half a dTon, then if it seems to be using up a dozen dTons of 'Common Raw Materials' questions arise about where the extra mass goes.

Overall, I think it is good approach -- but it is obvious that the authors put zero thoughts into it, and so it breaks under scrutiny.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It isn't an issue as the percentage profit doesn't indicate a time frame to achieve that profit. You can get that from the ton/Dton per day and considering it one of the trade group categories.

So to produce 1 DTon of Common Consumables (Cr500) would take Cr250 in materials which could be food (or oxygen, firewood or paper etc. depending on your definition of Common Consumable), plus packaging material etc. so who knows what trade good you would need to provide and how many DTons that would be hence - Idontcarium* You would also be spending in the order of Cr200-225 per ton in running costs leaving Cr25-50 per DTon profit.

Now if you had a little factory it might take you 10 days to produce that much, in a big factory you might produce several tons a day. None of that affects the cost of materials per DTon of output, just how long it takes you to get through those input materials and how quickly you produce the outputs. The rules care about the speed of production of outputs not speed of consumption of inputs. If you want a number just choose one, 2:1 1:1 or 1:2 don't seem wrong to me. A lot of the input material could be packaging and that could be recycled or not. If you think it is powders and filaments it might be less than the output volume as most packaged manufactured things have empty space in the packaging if nothing else (you know those half-filled spice tubs - contents may settle... yeah right!)

If you manufatcured a Dton of Robots, you don't need to specify a particular model. You just need to work out how many of those robots you need to get the value of a DTon of that trade goods and that is how many is in a DTon. It could be 10,000's of mouse bots, a few construction bots, a mix of various types or just parts. I doubt you actually need to know to use the manufacturing plant in the game. Specific product details are generally only needed if you are making one for yourself and then you wouldn't be using a plant.

*OK, truth, I am not comfortable with Idontcarium either. I really use a mix of 80% Common, 20% Uncommon Raw Materials as my feedstock.

I use 50/50 Common and Uncommon by price, not by volume.