Another, how do these rules apply question... Low pop, high tech

[MasterGwydion]

What is required to change the TL of a world? Say from TL-8 to TL-15? Exocet in the Trojan Reach has a total population of 20 and a TL-8. It also has a class-A Starport. I am guessing highport, since the planet is badly volcanic. That means that it is most likely built and/or run by some Imperial Corporation of at least using the Standards to foster trade with the Imperium. So TL-12. If I move a group of 40 people to Exocet and set up a TL-15 mining and manufacturing colony, would that make Exocet a TL-15 world?

 

[ottarrus]

There's a lot of things that go into a world's TL. Certainly it's starport and population, but other odd factors as well.
Exocet has a Class A Starport is 8000 km in diameter, has a standard tainted atmo, 40% water, a pop of 20, a participatory democracy government, law level of 6 and a TL of 8.
The world lies between Tobia and territories of the powerful Tlaiowaha clan Aslan.
What I derive from all this is this:
- Like as not Exocet's port is run by GeDevCo, probably as an orbital port. The 'population' of the world is most likely the entire staff of that port. While the port can construct starships, it is probably a heavily automated process. This works fine for standard designs, but if you want custom work you're probably gonna need a better port with higher staffing levels. There are good stockpiles of ship parts, so repairs aren't an issue.
- However, the population of the station only has a TL of 8. This means that as soon as their fabricators are out of raw materials to maker up the high speed/low drag stuff, they're back to using wrenches and soldering guns to get anything done.
- What food that is available is either shipped in or grown in hydroponic gardens and carniculture vats. There is very little fresh food available.
- I think that Exocet is a 'tripwire' world for GeDevCo's Aslan containment project. While not a 'garden' world, it has plenty of room to draw ihatei and probably serves as a warning post and trade way station.
- But if the resupply ships ever stop coming, Exocet Station is gonna be in a world of hurt.

 

[MasterGwydion]

There's a lot of things that go into a world's TL. Certainly it's starport and population, but other odd factors as well.
Exocet has a Class A Starport is 8000 km in diameter, has a standard tainted atmo, 40% water, a pop of 20, a participatory democracy government, law level of 6 and a TL of 8.
The world lies between Tobia and territories of the powerful Tlaiowaha clan Aslan.
What I derive from all this is this:
- Like as not Exocet's port is run by GeDevCo, probably as an orbital port. The 'population' of the world is most likely the entire staff of that port. While the port can construct starships, it is probably a heavily automated process. This works fine for standard designs, but if you want custom work you're probably gonna need a better port with higher staffing levels. There are good stockpiles of ship parts, so repairs aren't an issue.
- However, the population of the station only has a TL of 8. This means that as soon as their fabricators are out of raw materials to maker up the high speed/low drag stuff, they're back to using wrenches and soldering guns to get anything done.
- What food that is available is either shipped in or grown in hydroponic gardens and carniculture vats. There is very little fresh food available.
- I think that Exocet is a 'tripwire' world for GeDevCo's Aslan containment project. While not a 'garden' world, it has plenty of room to draw ihatei and probably serves as a warning post and trade way station.
- But if the resupply ships ever stop coming, Exocet Station is gonna be in a world of hurt.

I just found a blurb on Exocet in the Borderlands book.

The planet is nearly uninhabitable do to a really nasty dust from the many many volcanos. Decontamination protocols are required for anyone coming in from outside.

The Starport is indeed GeDeCo. It is basically only a highport. There is a downport that does seem to be open to the public, as it is only used for gathering fuel for the highport. It has a very small manufacturing capability at the downport at TL-8. That is where the TL of the world comes from. From the very few employees that live at the downport. The population of the downport is not counted in the planet's population, but there are very few of them. The 20 people mentioned by the population digit apparently have no TL as they are not coordinated enough to have a manufacturing base. The highport is to Imperial Standards, so TL-12. They also export to the highport the world's only export at the moment, food in the form of a tasty fungus. Most of this is shipped to the highport and used as their local fresh food source. I also found that the highport has a permanent population of "several thousand".

Also, yes. If the trade ships stop coming, Exocet will be TL-0 very very quickly.

 

[Condottiere]

Technology transfer, setting up the requisite industrial base and supporting infrastructure.

 

[MasterGwydion]

A follow up to this. Exocet is listed as Law Level 6. The TL of Exocet refers to the downport since the 20 people scattered throughout the planet have no civilization and so effectively are TL-0 eventhough they likely also use the TL-8 stuff from the downport, if they are close enough to buy stuff there. So if the Tech Level is that of the downport, is the Law Level of 6 also at the downport? It is not an SPA facility, so it is not, by law, Law Level 1. Would this mean that the highport would also be Law Level 6, eventhough the TL of the highport is different than the sustainable TL of the downport?

The more I read, the more Exocet is a confusing place ripe for adventure! lol

 

[ottarrus]

A follow up to this. Exocet is listed as Law Level 6. The TL of Exocet refers to the downport since the 20 people scattered throughout the planet have no civilization and so effectively are TL-0 eventhough they likely also use the TL-8 stuff from the downport, if they are close enough to buy stuff there. So if the Tech Level is that of the downport, is the Law Level of 6 also at the downport? It is not an SPA facility, so it is not, by law, Law Level 1. Would this mean that the highport would also be Law Level 6, eventhough the TL of the highport is different than the sustainable TL of the downport?

The more I read, the more Exocet is a confusing place ripe for adventure! lol

GeDevCo tends to follow the SPA standards insofar as port qualifications and conditions are concerned. Most SPA ports are LL 3... you can walk around strapped but they're gonna be REAL leery about people walking around in Combat Armor and carrying a Gauss rifle.
I sincerely doubt that Exocet has a downport of any sort. There simply isn't a need for it and there isn't enough people to staff it.

 

[MasterGwydion]

GeDevCo tends to follow the SPA standards insofar as port qualifications and conditions are concerned. Most SPA ports are LL 3... you can walk around strapped but they're gonna be REAL leery about people walking around in Combat Armor and carrying a Gauss rifle.
I sincerely doubt that Exocet has a downport of any sort. There simply isn't a need for it and there isn't enough people to staff it.

It is written about the Downport in the Mongoose Borderlands Book. When did the Starports change from LL1 to LL3? All of the recent things I have been reading say LL1 for Imperial Starports.

 

[ottarrus]

It is written about the Downport in the Mongoose Borderlands Book. When did the Starports change from LL1 to LL3? All of the recent things I have been reading say LL1 for Imperial Starports.

I'm not 1000% up on Trojan Reach, so alright. I don't see much reason for a downport, but whatever.
Starports don't care what you own, so it's a low LL. They do care about what you carry around. If you keep it aboard your ship or in your hotel room, they're fine with it. To my knowledge, starports have always been 'about law level 3' insofar as what you carry.
And remember, a lot of businesses won't allow someone strapped inside, especially if it serves intoxicants... think of that scene in Firefly where Cap'n Mal had to check his pistol in a locked bin at the door of the bar.
Last thing... in most starports, Startown is outside the extrality fence. While a lot of sketchy-ish activity is allowed or ignored in startown, but heavily armed strangers is generally not one of them. A good estimate is two law levels lower than the planet.

 

[Vormaerin]

Well, by the rules, every starport has a downport and only some have high ports. Obviously, like all the rules, that isn't the last word on how things must be. But it is the default.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Well, by the rules, every starport has a downport and only some have high ports. Obviously, like all the rules, that isn't the last word on how things must be. But it is the default.

It is the default, but the rules do allow for a Starport with no downport. See Ogmha in the Trojan Reach as an example. The official Starport is orbiting a gas giant and is not near the mainworld of the system.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I'm not 1000% up on Trojan Reach, so alright. I don't see much reason for a downport, but whatever.
Starports don't care what you own, so it's a low LL. They do care about what you carry around. If you keep it aboard your ship or in your hotel room, they're fine with it. To my knowledge, starports have always been 'about law level 3' insofar as what you carry.
And remember, a lot of businesses won't allow someone strapped inside, especially if it serves intoxicants... think of that scene in Firefly where Cap'n Mal had to check his pistol in a locked bin at the door of the bar.
Last thing... in most starports, Startown is outside the extrality fence. While a lot of sketchy-ish activity is allowed or ignored in startown, but heavily armed strangers is generally not one of them. A good estimate is two law levels lower than the planet.

pg 257 of the CRB "CHARTED SPACE: STARPORTS AND THE LAW"

"Starports operate according to Imperial Law
(equivalent to Law Level 1 for most items and
forbidding all use of psionics). "

 

[Vormaerin]

It is the default, but the rules do allow for a Starport with no downport. See Ogmha in the Trojan Reach as an example. The official Starport is orbiting a gas giant and is not near the mainworld of the system.

Yes, because the rules are and have always been intended to be subject to GM interpretation. But if you just straight read the rules, it says that the starport rating is the downport and you roll to see if it has a highport component. There is no way to generate Oghma using the world building rules as written.

Your example is the same sort of thing as Exocet not exactly conforming to the UWP. Which is how Traveller is intended to function.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yes, because the rules are and have always been intended to be subject to GM interpretation. But if you just straight read the rules, it says that the starport rating is the downport and you roll to see if it has a highport component. There is no way to generate Oghma using the world building rules as written.

Your example is the same sort of thing as Exocet not exactly conforming to the UWP. Which is how Traveller is intended to function.

Not everything is possible with random generation. It is not outside of the rules just because you can not roll it randomly. The rules that exist allow you to build a Space Station that is the declared Starport, without ever having a Downport. I am not sure how you are confusing, can't be randomly rolled, with can't be built within the rules.

 

[tytalan]

Tech level has nothing to do with knowing how to build the tech it’s all about the infrastructure needed to build and support the technology. There’s a lot that can slow or prevent building that infrastructure
Such things as Society: maybe the people of the world for whatever reason don’t want that infrastructure built
Resources: if the planet lacks some needed resource
Survive: (this might be the case in this world) maybe all the resources needed to build the infrastructure are already commented to the survival of the population
Drive: it’s not unheard of a society to have no or little push to build that infrastructure

In the end there is a cost to building the infrastructure to support higher tech level (resources include materials, man power and even available time for example) and sometimes that cost is unavailable to be paid

 

[MasterGwydion]

Tech level has nothing to do with knowing how to build the tech it’s all about the infrastructure needed to build and support the technology. There’s a lot that can slow or prevent building that infrastructure
Such things as Society: maybe the people of the world for whatever reason don’t want that infrastructure built
Resources: if the planet lacks some needed resource
Survive: (this might be the case in this world) maybe all the resources needed to build the infrastructure are already commented to the survival of the population
Drive: it’s not unheard of a society to have no or little push to build that infrastructure

In the end there is a cost to building the infrastructure to support higher tech level (resources include materials, man power and even available time for example) and sometimes that cost is unavailable to be paid

Drinax is TL-14, has no resources and no infrastructure, as published. Unless this is incorrect, it can't mean what you say it means without having to change the published TL. Correct? Or am I misunderstanding? It is also Class-A, but has no shipyard. lol.

 

[Vormaerin]

Drinax has never made any sense to me anyway. The whole idea that that were a TL15 Sindalian Empire during the Long Night was always sus.

to be fair, I don't think the info that the 1st and 2nd Imperiums were TL11-12 was a known thing when The Third Imperium fanzine published the first version of the Trojan Reaches in the mid 80s.

 

[Jame Rowe]

Drinax has never made any sense to me anyway. The whole idea that that were a TL15 Sindalian Empire during the Long Night was always sus.

to be fair, I don't think the info that the 1st and 2nd Imperiums were TL11-12 was a known thing when The Third Imperium fanzine published the first version of the Trojan Reaches in the mid 80s.

I think I assumed* that they made progress after the SE got established.
*: no comments about making an ass of you and me; I can do that on my own.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I think I assumed* that they made progress after the SE got established.
*: no comments about making an ass of you and me; I can do that on my own.

I am a pro at making an ass of Myself, so I get it. In all honesty, I am not sure how they managed TL-15 all those years ago, but I bet it is a great story. Or could be. That was before the Aslan crossed the rift, I think, but I may be wrong. I can't even imagine a Trojan Reach with no Aslan, or not many anyways! lol

 

[Vormaerin]

Well, the original version of the Tliowaha subsector (where Drinax is) said it was simultaneously settled by humans and Aslan, but I think that got hit with the retcon stick. IIRC, the Aslan show up about -800 or so in the Mongoose version.

The Rule of Man was -2200ish to -1800ish. The Sindalian Empire was -2000ish to -1400ish. So, despite a description that said it formed as a defense league against raiders during the collapse of the Rule of Man and focused on defense and expansion over consolidation and science, it somehow reached TL15. Which the Third Imperium did not achieve until +1000.

Note, also, that the Zhodani, Aslan, and Solomani are TL14 states.

 

[Geir]

Remember, Darrian hit TL16 prior to -924, starting with local TL3 and Solomani TL12 in -1500 . The 'theory' is that the Solomani, who after all took only a couple of centuries to hit TL12, surpassing thousands of years of Vilani 'progress', are much less tradition-bound and willing to take the 'risks' of progressing quickly. Add in some Darrian brains, and we're talking about not only bring that whole society up to TL16, but four TLs past Rule of Man technology in less than 600 years. So for Sindal to hit rise from ~TL12 to TL15 in a similar timeframe isn't unreasonable in Charted Space canon.