Shocked and disheartened

[lastbesthope]

Well reasoned posts, every time.

I managed to get 2 extra White stars in the ISA fleet box with a well reasoned campaign :lol:

LBH

 

[Ripple]

Well reasoned will get you farther with just about any human being.

Especially in a format where they can safely ignore you if they do not like your tone.

But well reasoned is not always enough. I have a number of rules questions that have gone unanswered, even though they are presented in as clear a format as possible. (Which is not to say I am always clear, I'm not. And I can certainly be emotional about some points.)

Hard to explain at 2:30 am...so I'll let lay for now.

Ripple

 

[Voronesh]

Well just to give you a bad example.

Whining for 10+ pages can net you information. Has happened last month.

Though normally a good post format and well mannered words will get you farther.

Yes it is kinda unnerving that the Var'Nics torp were given as not precise for a long time, even with answering, and Armageddon gives it precise in a FAQ-style. There are a few other things that often go by, when a faq or halfpage update for free could solve. (Tourney Hunter, current Sag)

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

kind of the answer I was hoping for

Time to start putting together the proposals methinks!

 

[Davesaint]

If the text of Armageddon was finished in April, did it go to playtest then or was that post playtest?

The playtesting was finished.

Overall, I was very disappointed in Armageddon. I really like the base system of ACTA, but I am concerned with the direction that the game is going.

Dave

What direction is the game going in?

It's going the direction of 40k. Bigger, Badder, Cheesier

Dave

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

Dave, personally I think your wrong there with the 40K GW comparison, but hey, everyone's entitled to their opinion.

 

[Greg Smith]

It's going the direction of 40k. Bigger, Badder, Cheesier

Dave

I have to disagree (you knew I would ).

The white stars have been toned down. Stealth is less powerful - making the Minbari less powerful (which were the two biggest complaints).

The big, bad ships are generally considered to be underpowered for their PL.

So were are down to one ship considered cheesy by almost all players and several considered cheesy by many others.

If anything the game is become less cheesy.

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

like he said...
would say more but counter ticking down
3
2
1

 

[Davesaint]

It's going the direction of 40k. Bigger, Badder, Cheesier

Dave

I have to disagree (you knew I would ).

The white stars have been toned down. Stealth is less powerful - making the Minbari less powerful (which were the two biggest complaints).

The big, bad ships are generally considered to be underpowered for their PL.

So were are down to one ship considered cheesy by almost all players and several considered cheesy by many others.

If anything the game is become less cheesy.

Sigh.........

If the game has become less cheesey, then explain the following

Armageddon Sag
Whitestar Fighter
Whitestar Carrier
Prefect
Tertius
Revised Brikorta
Marathon
Adira
Drakh - Too Much Precise
Dilgar - Targrath
Pentacon
Squadrons - 6 ships
Speed reduction due to criticals and crippled


I could go on. Frankly the Steath changes aren't that significant. As a person who plays this game alot, I can tell you that there is a serious over-reaction in the significance in the changes to steath. It's still an all or nothing roll.

The new fighter changes have essentially rendered the Vree pointless. You can no longer run them without them being a league force.

The changes to the EA fleet lists make no sense. Ships were moved up to a higher PL that shouldn't have been, and the replacements for others so out perform the existing hulls as to make the existing hull worthless.

Sounds like 40k to me.


Dave

 

[CZuschlag]

Dave,

I don't think we're in full 40k here. I'm certain some things aren't designed to be cheesy, it's just Mongoose messing up, big time. It's not intentionally designed stupidity (usually):

Intentional mistakes that feel 40k-ish:
-- Saggitarius: Designed to be cheesy to make up for the relatively weak rest of the fleet, this is an idea that fails spectacularly. This justification for overpowering a ship is wholly misguided, and does fall into the cheese territory, I grant.

-- Targrath: Designed (I believe) for largely the same reasons -- the Dilgar War and Battle hulls are generally putrid -- and incorrect for the same reasons.

-- WS Carrier: I can't belive this was an error, this is designed stupidity. I don't know the justification why, but I can't image this not being understood as a mistake ship.

-- Vorlon and Shadow Re-jiggering: Probably the most greivous crimes, this takes playable campaign races and puts them on the back shelf. Entire fleets will have to be repurchased (and some new ships will have to be added to the fleet roster) to even make these playable in a campaign with all those Skirmish and Patrol scenarios. People who played these should feel cheated and conned. Mongoose sure looks guilty on this one.

Other things, I think they just didn't understand the implications of. They're not obvious (not 40k-ish ... just dumb):

-- Original Pentacon: Currently not a problem anymore, but the idea was originally that the extra initiative sink was cool. However, the ability to mass firepower is far more important a consequence. Upon realizing this, they decided to fix the balance by ...

-- Giving Everyone 6-ship Squadrons: Almost invalidates the good of alternating activation for fire. Becomes very GW in it becomes more of a "I fire, then you fire" mechanic. Alternating action has long proven (remember WarZone?) a far more enriching structure.

-- Revised Brikorta: They probably think this fixes some of the Brakiri firepower. It does indeed, but it runs into Darkener problems without the Hull issue to balance it. At War level, this'll get bad. That probably wasn't considered.

-- WS Fighter: Actually, it's not the WS Carrier itself that horrifies me -- it's that it comes with all of these things. Wee nightmares, they are. Drakh probably have no answer. Developed in the original understanding of the futility of fighters, they have developed something that has two fixes at once -- an upgrade to the fighter, and the new fighter rules. ACtA has a history of "double fixing" ships and misbalancing horribly, and here we have no exception. An unintentional biff, but a biff.

-- Speed reduction when crippled: I honestly believe they had thought they'd ruled that other way and are horrified they got it backwards in the book. FAQing a FAQ is too embarrassing -- a really poor justification for making a change.

Others they just haven't gotten to, but should (not 40k-ish, just lazy. So far. Making us pay for these balance fixes will make it 40k-ish):

-- Tertius: For some reason, Mongoose is slow to fix acknowledged major balance issues. I realize that building a balanced fix will take time, but a page of preliminary first guesses for fixes is probably a good idea. You could choose to use the prototypes of fixes or not at your discretion. The forum community here should be a guiding light in this process.

-- Prefect (possibly Sulust as well): See Tertius. Also applies to some other stuff, including overweak ships (Kutai, Mograth, Torotha in light of new Stealth changes, Wahant bolters, Vorchan, Xorr, Lakara, Sunhawk).

And some of what you've listed, I'm by no measure sure about at all yet:

-- Marathon, Adira: Need a few matches to field opinions on these.

-- Drakh Precise: Most folks seems to think they're fine as are. I think they're slightly too good, but change of Precise without other alterations mean the Raiders and CA are way too light, and the CL is in need of something else.

The point of all this essay? I don't think that we're on our way to 40k at all. Just getting into some very bad habits; tragic and damaging for the good of the game, especially given the wealth of talent available into the user community to fix it.

 

[lastbesthope]

The thing to remember about the WSC-L Fighter is it may be born again hard, but it's still only one hit kill. It's one of (if not the) easiest fighter to hit (EDIT I meant hit, only Dodge 5+, Hull 5 but then so's a T'bolt) outside of a dogfight, and it's bloody expensive at only 1 per SKirmish choice, except in the WS Carrier (But then compare that to the Drakh ship with Huge Hangars 8)

LBH

 

[Right Hand of God]

I don't think the 6-ship squardon rule makes it an i-go-you-go system, so much as an I-go-you-die system. the abiity to firge 6 ships at once at chosen targets pretty much guarantees the death of the chosen target, whoever goes second is then faced with the law of diminishing returns. I know that movement and tactics play a part, but if you can feld for example 6 primus in one squadron you could expect to kill two war level ships in your turn of firing, how can any player hope to fight against that?

The one thing I read that I do disagree with was the suggestion that Mongoose should listen to the views of those of us on the forums who play the game and make their changes accordingly. Sorry but I think it is precisely that kind of behaviour from Mongoose that has resulted in some of the disasterous changes we are now witnessing. The changes to fighters are a direct result of players screaming for a change, and the result was to change it back so that fighters once again become a dominant part of the game speling cheap quick easy kills to fleets with low hull low damage ships. What on earth is the point of a Vree fleet against a fighter heavy fleet? All that anti fighter weaponry is a waste of time when your ship is a drifting wreck.

Sono, I don't think players should be involved to that degree, fine playtest the games, but changes by committee are doomed to fail, especially if those changes are made to please those who shuld the loudest and longest. Mongoose, write you own rules, make your own stats and have the courage of your convictions for more than 6-8 months at a time.

Armageddon is nothing more than a hardbacked issue of S&P and i think that we would all have been better served if that is how it had been served up.

I await V2 with trepidation and wonder what the hell will happen next with a game that is evolving or devolving far to quickly for it's own good.

 

[Greg Smith]

If the game has become less cheesey, then explain the following

Armageddon Sag

I believe I already mentioned that one. It is probably the ship that most should be in a higher PL.

Whitestar Fighter

A fighter worth the same as an Olympus is cheesy? Shoot it. It only has dodge 4+.

Whitestar Carrier

It is a relatively weak war level ship carrying nasty fighters. It is only as cheesy as the Morshin.

Prefect
Tertius

But they haven't changed. How can something that doesn't change make the game more cheesy?

Revised Brikorta

A 2AD beam instead of precise? I'd rather have the precise.

Marathon
Adira

The Adira is an Armageddon level ship. It is supposed to be tough. The Marathon has one good weapon otherwise it is less tough than the Omega.

Drakh - Too Much Precise

There's a whole other thread arguing the Drakh are too weak. Do the Minbari have too much precise?

Dilgar - Targrath
Pentacon

The Pentacon is nasty, I'll agree, especially now it is difficult to break. What's cheesy about the Targrath?

Squadrons - 6 ships
Speed reduction due to criticals and crippled

These affect every race. How does that make them cheesy?

 

[Ripple]

Brikorta - lets see 2 AD of SAP Precise that is interceptabel or a 2 AD beam double damage ap. On average you will get one extra hit out of the beam and maybe a lot more. If you get two hits compared to the one for the SFoS armament you have roughly the same chance of getting a crit. So the net is a gain of the possibility of more hits, with those the possiblity of more crits and more damage regardless because of the DD, oh...and your no longer interceptable. Sure you would rather have the precise?

Compare the ship to the Darkner. You have better hull, interceptors and 2 flights of fighters.

I'll let others get the rest.

Ripple

 

[Davesaint]

If the game has become less cheesey, then explain the following

Armageddon Sag

I believe I already mentioned that one. It is probably the ship that most should be in a higher PL.

Whitestar Fighter

A fighter worth the same as an Olympus is cheesy? Shoot it. It only has dodge 4+.

Whitestar Carrier

It is a relatively weak war level ship carrying nasty fighters. It is only as cheesy as the Morshin.

Prefect
Tertius

But they haven't changed. How can something that doesn't change make the game more cheesy?

Revised Brikorta

A 2AD beam instead of precise? I'd rather have the precise.

Marathon
Adira

The Adira is an Armageddon level ship. It is supposed to be tough. The Marathon has one good weapon otherwise it is less tough than the Omega.

Drakh - Too Much Precise

There's a whole other thread arguing the Drakh are too weak. Do the Minbari have too much precise?

Dilgar - Targrath
Pentacon

The Pentacon is nasty, I'll agree, especially now it is difficult to break. What's cheesy about the Targrath?

Squadrons - 6 ships
Speed reduction due to criticals and crippled

These affect every race. How does that make them cheesy?

Greg,

If what I am about to say comes off being nasty, I apologize.

1. Lets start with the Whitestar fighter - as a Skirmish level PL it's not bad, but when 8 of them are carried on a Fleet Carrier, that's bad. They fire first and have a 3AD DD Precise weapon. For a fighter, that is so busted.

2. The Sag - Frankly the SFOS Sag with 4ad F/P/S and 2AD aft missles would have been a good raid level ship

3. The Whitestar Carrier - While it only has a 2AD INL - It outranges any other Whitestar based beam, it has 6AD in every arc of a secondary weapon that is AP, DD, and Precise and Range 15. Every other Molecular Pulsar on a whitestar hull is range 10 and only Forward Arc. It can take 36 Damage with Dodge 5+ Adaptive Armour and 1D6 Self repair and has 48 crew, so it does not have the problem of other whitestars in that it will be easily crewed out. It is speed 12 with 2/45's which is very fast and maneuverable for a war level hull. On top of that it carries 8 WS fighters, is a fleet carrier, and has carrier 4 - which means it launches them fast. Nope, not busted at all. :roll:

4. The Brikorta - I trade out an interceptable 2AD SAP, Precise weapon for a 2AD Beam, AP, DD weapon. I'll take that trade. I will get more effective damage with the beam since interceptors don't work against it. Plus I am a skirmish level carrier which allows me to field self defense fighters.

5. The Adira - Hmmm.....120 Damage, 135 Crew, GEG 3. It's a Carrier. Has an 8 AD SAP. Beam, DD, Precise main weapon, and more AD elsewhere than I can shake a stick at. Bigger, Better, Nastier - See GW

6. Marathon Vs. Omega
Marathon - Speed 12, 2/45 AJP, Flight Computer, Int. 4, Hull 6. Damage 40/12 Crew 45/14 Troops 4 2 Starfuries
Range 25 Boresight 4 AD SAP Beam Triple Damage
Range 25 B(a) 2AD SAP Beam Triple
Range 15 Pulse/Laser Arrays - 6/6/6/4 Twinlinked
Range 6 T 4AD AF

Omega - Speed 7 1/45 Hull 6 Damage 48/10, Crew 62/14 4 Starfuries 3 interceptors, jump point
Range 30 B 4AD Beam SAP DD
Range 30 B(a) 2AD Beam SAP DD
Range 12 F 10AD TL
Range 10 P/S 6AD TL
Range 10 A 4AD TL
Range 5 P/S 4 AD AF

Lets see the marathon is faster, more maneuverable, and has a better beam. It has more interceptors, and AJP. It's secondary guns outrange the omega, But it has 2 less fighters. I'll take the marathon thanks. That's why I have a hermes to open a jump point from hyperspace for me.

6. Yes, I do not like all of the precise on the Minbari either, but what is really nasty is the Precise beams on the Light and Heavy Raiders. Add a GEG and a decent amount of hull and they are sick. Not to mention they are free on the Carrier and Mothership

7. Are you seriously trying to tell me you don't think the Targrath is overgunned? 4 AD of torpedoes, 10AD of Bolters, 6 AD of Pulsars, and MOD on a speed 12 2/45 ship? Have you ever seen the damage these ships do especially when they CAF? Busted. Add the Pentacon - Extremely busted.

The new ruling on speed changes and crits is not cheesey. It just ticks me off that a cripled speed 8 ship that has taken a -4 speed critical is now parked. This ship then becomes captured for double victory points.

Squadrons With 6 ships - Ships die to fast due to this. Takes strategy out of the game, especially with Forward Arced beam ships.

Well that's my rant for this evening.


Dave

 

[Greg Smith]

If what I am about to say comes off being nasty, I apologize.

It doesn't come accross as nasty. I hope I don't either.

1. Lets start with the Whitestar fighter - as a Skirmish level PL it's not bad, but when 8 of them are carried on a Fleet Carrier, that's bad. They fire first and have a 3AD DD Precise weapon. For a fighter, that is so busted.

So it's not the fighter, so much as the carrier. Other fighters have similar weapons - Shadows with 2 AD DD, AP; Vorlons 1AD beam, AP precise; sky serpents 8AD.

2. The Sag - Frankly the SFOS Sag with 4ad F/P/S and 2AD aft missles would have been a good raid level ship

The old sag is a bit weak for Raid, IMHO. The new one too good for skirmish.

3. The Whitestar Carrier - While it only has a 2AD INL - It outranges any other Whitestar based beam, it has 6AD in every arc of a secondary weapon that is AP, DD, and Precise and Range 15. Every other Molecular Pulsar on a whitestar hull is range 10 and only Forward Arc. It can take 36 Damage with Dodge 5+ Adaptive Armour and 1D6 Self repair and has 48 crew, so it does not have the problem of other whitestars in that it will be easily crewed out. It is speed 12 with 2/45's which is very fast and maneuverable for a war level hull. On top of that it carries 8 WS fighters, is a fleet carrier, and has carrier 4 - which means it launches them fast. Nope, not busted at all. :roll:

Compared to the other war level ships, it is undergunned. Although the AA and dodge give it good defences, it only has hull 5, which mean it will take more hits. The white star fighters are nasty, but anyone who is expecting them will be able to shoot them down at range. You probably do need to use your big guns on them since they are fast, but their high dodge makes them vulnerable.

The WS carrier is a dangerous ship, but no more so than the Octurion or Bin'Tak.

4. The Brikorta - I trade out an interceptable 2AD SAP, Precise weapon for a 2AD Beam, AP, DD weapon. I'll take that trade. I will get more effective damage with the beam since interceptors don't work against it. Plus I am a skirmish level carrier which allows me to field self defense fighters.

The Brikorta is comparable to the Thentus, Ka'Toc, Miliani, Strikehawk. Probably better than the Darkner. I'd still take the SAP precise over the AP, DD beam. Sure it's interceptable, but it has secondaries to deplete the inteceptors.

5. The Adira - Hmmm.....120 Damage, 135 Crew, GEG 3. It's a Carrier. Has an 8 AD SAP. Beam, DD, Precise main weapon, and more AD elsewhere than I can shake a stick at. Bigger, Better, Nastier - See GW

Of course it is. Armageddon is a book about big nasty ships. The Victory has more beams than that, as does the Ka'bin'tak and the Neroon. Big, better, nastier - sure. Broken, no.

6. Marathon Vs. Omega
Lets see the marathon is faster, more maneuverable, and has a better beam. It has more interceptors, and AJP. It's secondary guns outrange the omega, But it has 2 less fighters. I'll take the marathon thanks.

The Omega's beam out ranges the Marathon's. The secondaries have more AD. It has more fighters, 20% more damage, 25% more crew. I'll take one of each.

6. Yes, I do not like all of the precise on the Minbari either, but what is really nasty is the Precise beams on the Light and Heavy Raiders. Add a GEG and a decent amount of hull and they are sick.

But the Darkh's low hull and relatively low damage points cancel out the GEG. They may be free on the mothership and carrier, but many people consider those two big ships to be easy VPs.

7. Are you seriously trying to tell me you don't think the Targrath is overgunned? 4 AD of torpedoes, 10AD of Bolters, 6 AD of Pulsars, and MOD on a speed 12 2/45 ship? Have you ever seen the damage these ships do especially when they CAF? Busted. Add the Pentacon - Extremely busted.

No. Compared to the Rohric, the Nova, the hyperion, it is undergunned and short ranged. Fast and manuevarable, I agree. But lacking in range and all round fire.

The new ruling on speed changes and crits is not cheesey. It just ticks me off that a cripled speed 8 ship that has taken a -4 speed critical is now parked. This ship then becomes captured for double victory points.

So a ship that has lost 80-90% of its structure and taken major engine damage can't escape?

Squadrons With 6 ships - Ships die to fast due to this. Takes strategy out of the game, especially with Forward Arced beam ships.

I haven't been victim to that. But I can see your point. It is something I will ask Matthew about for the 2e playtests.

 

[Triggy]

If the game has become less cheesey, then explain the following

Armageddon Sag

I believe I already mentioned that one. It is probably the ship that most should be in a higher PL.

Whitestar Fighter

A fighter worth the same as an Olympus is cheesy? Shoot it. It only has dodge 4+.

Whitestar Carrier

It is a relatively weak war level ship carrying nasty fighters. It is only as cheesy as the Morshin.

Prefect
Tertius

But they haven't changed. How can something that doesn't change make the game more cheesy?

Revised Brikorta

A 2AD beam instead of precise? I'd rather have the precise.

Marathon
Adira

The Adira is an Armageddon level ship. It is supposed to be tough. The Marathon has one good weapon otherwise it is less tough than the Omega.

Drakh - Too Much Precise

There's a whole other thread arguing the Drakh are too weak. Do the Minbari have too much precise?

Dilgar - Targrath
Pentacon

The Pentacon is nasty, I'll agree, especially now it is difficult to break. What's cheesy about the Targrath?

Squadrons - 6 ships
Speed reduction due to criticals and crippled

These affect every race. How does that make them cheesy?

Greg,

If what I am about to say comes off being nasty, I apologize.

1. Lets start with the Whitestar fighter - as a Skirmish level PL it's not bad, but when 8 of them are carried on a Fleet Carrier, that's bad. They fire first and have a 3AD DD Precise weapon. For a fighter, that is so busted.

2. The Sag - Frankly the SFOS Sag with 4ad F/P/S and 2AD aft missles would have been a good raid level ship

3. The Whitestar Carrier - While it only has a 2AD INL - It outranges any other Whitestar based beam, it has 6AD in every arc of a secondary weapon that is AP, DD, and Precise and Range 15. Every other Molecular Pulsar on a whitestar hull is range 10 and only Forward Arc. It can take 36 Damage with Dodge 5+ Adaptive Armour and 1D6 Self repair and has 48 crew, so it does not have the problem of other whitestars in that it will be easily crewed out. It is speed 12 with 2/45's which is very fast and maneuverable for a war level hull. On top of that it carries 8 WS fighters, is a fleet carrier, and has carrier 4 - which means it launches them fast. Nope, not busted at all. :roll:

4. The Brikorta - I trade out an interceptable 2AD SAP, Precise weapon for a 2AD Beam, AP, DD weapon. I'll take that trade. I will get more effective damage with the beam since interceptors don't work against it. Plus I am a skirmish level carrier which allows me to field self defense fighters.

5. The Adira - Hmmm.....120 Damage, 135 Crew, GEG 3. It's a Carrier. Has an 8 AD SAP. Beam, DD, Precise main weapon, and more AD elsewhere than I can shake a stick at. Bigger, Better, Nastier - See GW

6. Marathon Vs. Omega
Marathon - Speed 12, 2/45 AJP, Flight Computer, Int. 4, Hull 6. Damage 40/12 Crew 45/14 Troops 4 2 Starfuries
Range 25 Boresight 4 AD SAP Beam Triple Damage
Range 25 B(a) 2AD SAP Beam Triple
Range 15 Pulse/Laser Arrays - 6/6/6/4 Twinlinked
Range 6 T 4AD AF

Omega - Speed 7 1/45 Hull 6 Damage 48/10, Crew 62/14 4 Starfuries 3 interceptors, jump point
Range 30 B 4AD Beam SAP DD
Range 30 B(a) 2AD Beam SAP DD
Range 12 F 10AD TL
Range 10 P/S 6AD TL
Range 10 A 4AD TL
Range 5 P/S 4 AD AF

Lets see the marathon is faster, more maneuverable, and has a better beam. It has more interceptors, and AJP. It's secondary guns outrange the omega, But it has 2 less fighters. I'll take the marathon thanks. That's why I have a hermes to open a jump point from hyperspace for me.

6. Yes, I do not like all of the precise on the Minbari either, but what is really nasty is the Precise beams on the Light and Heavy Raiders. Add a GEG and a decent amount of hull and they are sick. Not to mention they are free on the Carrier and Mothership

7. Are you seriously trying to tell me you don't think the Targrath is overgunned? 4 AD of torpedoes, 10AD of Bolters, 6 AD of Pulsars, and MOD on a speed 12 2/45 ship? Have you ever seen the damage these ships do especially when they CAF? Busted. Add the Pentacon - Extremely busted.

The new ruling on speed changes and crits is not cheesey. It just ticks me off that a cripled speed 8 ship that has taken a -4 speed critical is now parked. This ship then becomes captured for double victory points.

Squadrons With 6 ships - Ships die to fast due to this. Takes strategy out of the game, especially with Forward Arced beam ships.

Well that's my rant for this evening.


Dave

1. For a Skirmish level chioce, it's probably underpowered. Yes it's the best fighter in the game but to take it as a fleet choice I'd have to get two flights to make it worth my while (yeah, I think you should get two flights of Nials for a single Patrol point too but most other fighters are fine in relation).

2. With the extra dice it's basically a Raid level ship. It probably was before but now there's not even a doubt. If you want to keep it Skirmish, roughly halve the AD available but leave variant missiles in (comparing it to the Missile Hyperion in particular).

3. White Star Carrier is waaaay too good. It's comfortably better than the WSC-2 (an acknowledged "good" Battle level ship) with a good fighter payload - half or a little over half a War ship's value (even reckoning that WS Fighters should be two per Skirmish point). The proportion of value in its fighters is typical for a fleet carrier but the ability levels of even a fighting carrier are usually between one and two PLs below.

4. Same number of hits per shot on the Brikorta but double damage rather than precise. I'd rather take double damage any day but it's not a huge difference.

5. Adira - Great Armageddon ship...then it had GEG added! I know this isn't how the ship was designed for playtesting but in its effectiveness it feels that way. It's a bit better in any one on one vs Armageddon ships and because of the GEG just gets better as you lower the PL of opposition ships (that can only bring smaller guns to bear).

6. Interceptors aren't a big deal, the extra 8 points of damage and plenty of crew (on the Omega) are. They allow, with judicious use of close blast doors, the Omega to take a lot more damage (an extra 20%) than the Marathon. For a ship that generally sits back and snipes at targets it makes them fairly even to me.

7. The tournament Targrath is balanced. The fleet book one has extra torpedoes and pulsars. Much like the differences with the tourney and SFoS Sulust. It doesn't help that the Rohric is probably too powerful too and this would have been used as a comparison ship.

 

[Ripple]

Triggy's points in reverse order.

7 - Actually this is kinda of to both Greg and Triggy's points. The standard Targrath is too much due to what Triggy said, too many secondary weapons. In particular the pulsar removes the interceptor flaw in the bolters. A major thing you seem to miss in many of these comments is the idea of 'strike range'. The Targrath is not a short ranged ship, it is a long range ship with short ranged weapons. As a front arc ships its strike range is anywhere from 0 to 28 inches, with the 6 to 22 inch band having all SA's available. Oh and that assumes it wants to fire its bolters, for a torp strike try 0 to 38 inches.

6 - Omega cannot effectively use close blast doors as it is a boresighted ship and needs its turns. Might help it on turns it cannot get a shot, but then you are in some trouble if a battle level ship is not at least trying to get shots.

5 - yup...GEG is regressive. The lower the pl of the enemy the better it gets. It is also very effective vs ships with a number of specialty weapons. They ONLY thing it is not fairly good against is high AD (4+) multi-damage beams. So much like whitestars if you survive the initial pass you will clean just about anybodies clock as secondaries cannot effectively hurt you

4 - Have to disagree on same number of hits. The beam can caf/redirect bosting it to one extra hit in general (the SAP/Precise maxes at 2, the beam can go higher). With only 1-2 hits, interceptable you are actually looking at less crits with the precise, and less damaging crits due to single damage. As to the interceptors being not an issue due to the short guns, again 'strike range'. This is a ship that has a great strike range but with the SAP you needed to be within twelve (or have a ship there) or you often wasted your shots. Now you do not need to go into secondary weapons range of your target.

3 (and 1) - the Whitestar carrier is easily equal to the WS2 in firepower. No missles (2 AS shrug) and less AD per arc? Sure, but all round firepower and longer range on the secondaries. The damage/crew comaparison is fairly close and this whitestar carrier can effectively use CBD adding another layer of defense. Then it carries the whitestar fighters.

You mention fighters that are also good, the vorlon, shadow and sky serpent. Only one of these has precise, a very big deal and its beam will likely hit no more than the whitestars 3 ad. The shadow has less AD and no precise, but you think it is similar. The sky serpent does indeed have eight dice. All single damage and only half AP no precise so less damaging. ALL of which is irrelevant. All of those fighters do not have the strike range of the whitestar fighter. They are generally slow (half the whitestar), poor dogfighters, lower CQs and operate without the benefit of fleet carrier. It is not the weaponry it is the net effect of choosing the fight you want, being dogfight immune and coming with a return to carrier save that makes them vile.

You are right in that as a skirmish choice they are questionable, but that is not how you will take them, you will take them on carriers. They will appear as a particularly nasty combonation of first strike, precise weapons that you will have little chance to ever shoot with anything short of a battle laser, and then I get as many as half on average back. I roll hot and your dice do not matter.

2 - the Sag has been said over and over...too many very good dice, at a ridiculous strike range for a skirmish ship. Its low speed is not a penalty as it gives the ship the tight turn it needs to 'wiggle' around the arcs.

Like Dave I am not trying to be nasty. I am also not being a clear as I would like. The three big concepts that make many of these issues problematic is that certain things in this game have strong synergy.

Ripple

 

[CZuschlag]

As a Dilgar player, I can honestly say that the Targrath firepower looks OK, and Rohric looks even a little weak ... when you are facing an active interceptor system. Against hull 6 with interceptors (classic case, the Chronos) it can even feel a little futile....

.... but watch out when that interceptor doesn't come with the ship or is down! The Rohric bolters become dangerous (if it's the off-turn, it's still only 8 dice) and the Targrath'a array becomes deadly.

Enter the Targrath's pulsars and D-torps.

These little nightmares are there to soak the interceptors for the bolters. They do it well, remove the potential for the bad situation above. The main point is, it's not bolter range many people should fear, it's pulsar range; but it's still the bolters that are wreaking havoc.

And it all gets spectacularly worse under CAF! Against hull 6, CAF increases the weapon yield directly by 66%, but, against a system with typical interceptor rolls, it goes up by about 133%. I can't find another ship with a reasonable pool of dice that reacts as violently to CAF as the Targrath. And, with cheap patrol scouts, it works to a tee.

Triggy, we're trying out a Mk. 2 Targrath -- trying to take a bit of the Rock-Paper-Scissors out of the Tourney ship. We've gone to a 10 AD bolter and a 4 AD turret pulsar. It, on its own, can still try to deal with an interceptor ship -- the pulsars help, but the bolter death is further toned down. Total firepower is slightly done for the Tourney list --- same total damage potential (12xDD = 24 TC, Mk 2 has 10xDD + 4 = 24) but the pulsars are a bit shorter and don't have AP. T arc allows it to do something about fighters, something that, if you implement Armageddon, has to be considered. The ship has seen limited action so far, we'll let you know as we proceed.

 

[Wing Commander]

I don't feel that B5 is running anything like 40k. 40k has been around for a few years and is largely responsible for us having the games industry that we have today, I even have a back issue of white Dwarf with a certain Mr Sprange playing a battle report of Black Templars vs Orks!
40k has tremendous strengths; top quality miniatures (admittedly at a price) and a fabulous background (again, admittedly that background hasn't changed a great deal in the 30ish years the game has been around). The B5 storyline is a far more vibrant and living thing, it is progressing and changing, not always to everybodies taste but at least they are trying (to paraphrase, you can please some of the people all of the time or all of the people some of the time, you can't please all of the people all of the time).
Yes, there are a few "cheesy" combo's out there but I still see a lot of "fun fleets" at tournaments, far more than "fun armies" at a WFB or 40k tournament. More players still seem interested in the background, style and affiliation of their fleets than flat out winning. I would say that this is a major ethos difference between 40k and B5. I simply don't agree that it's going bigger, badder better; the Armageddon ships are great, but will only be wheeled out on special occasions or for fun play, even in campaign play (1 of B5's biggest strengths) you're just not gonna get to take the big fella out of drydock that often, which makes it even more special when you actually do.