Arkathan
Emperor Mongoose
A hydrogen economy pretty much tosses that line of thinking out the window.
Ship cost reduction as TL increases?
- Thread starter Sageryne
- Start date
The price of a horse in 1910 (in New Mexico) was $105 ($3,455) and $65($1,156) in 1924 according to the US Department of Agriculture Statistical Bulletin Number 5 (1925). The bulletin provides information on each state but the cost decrease is of a similar magnitude.
This is about the same price differential as the Model T example. I am tending to assume the traditional manufacturing method was used for the horse in both 1910 and 1924. The price differential is therefore likely a result of a number of factors other than just the tech level of the "factory".
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
I think it will come down to the infrastructure.
It's probably easier to charge wirelessly, or with a universal serial bus.
It's probably easier to charge wirelessly, or with a universal serial bus.
Arkathan
Emperor Mongoose
As the Model T and other mechanical monstrosities became more ubiquitous, demand for horses decreased.
The cost of horses was more related to a lack of demand prior to them achieving luxury status. Worth checking into how much glue factories affected the cost of horses in that era.
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
Depends on when the turkey baster was invented.
Since you're using constant dollars, I'm sure there is a demand factor, so it's probably 3:1 for horses with decreased demand and 5:1 with cars with both increased production and increased demand, so there's definitely some scale efficiencies in play.
Edit: And my answer overlapped Arkathan's - I need to type faster.
AndrewW
Emperor Mongoose
You need to level up your Typing (faster) skill, your Typing (Qwerty)-2 only gives you Typing (faster)-0.
Number of horses remains fairly constant (around 25 million) between 1910 and 1920 (only date for which stats are available). The majority of horses are for agricultural rather than domestic use and the cost per acre of mechanised farming is a little higher in 1924 than cost of horse-powered farming. Car and Truck registration in New Mexico in 1923 was 32,000, in 1913 it was only 1898. Total registered motor vehicles in the US in 1923 was 2.5 million. It looks like people were buying the motor vehicles but are still far more reliant on horses.
Even had the number of horses decreased it would simply underline the fact that just because technology has moved on, it doesn't necessarily make things cheaper, there are other factors and comparing such disparate periods without considering the rise of fascism, the formation of the USSR, the introduction of insecticides, formation of FBI, restrictions on immigration and dozens of other changes between the two dates is simplistic and prone to error.
14 Years of change is more than just 14 years of increased mechanisation in motorcar factories, there are hundreds of other non-technological changes that will influence the selling price of a specific vehicle.
The German army in WW2 was one of the most technologically advanced armies in the period. They were still heavily reliant on horse drawn vehicles.
Arkathan
Emperor Mongoose
All of which ignores the advances in production that lead to decreased costs for the Model T and other motor vehicles in the face of increased demand.
It doesn't ignore it, it places it within a context of greater change. I don't have to restate something that is self-evident. I reserve the right to support my argument with facts, especially where they have been called into question.
This has all become rather divorced from the original premise that you should be able to buy a TL11 starship more cheaply from a TL15 shipyard because of production efficiencies. The move from 1910 to 1924 does not relate to TL (since both 1910 and 1924 are in the same TL). The logic was extended to talking about some unicorn Model T that would be even cheaper than the 1924 one if it were produced today. That argument ignored the fact that the selling price was not purely a function of the cost to manufacture and that the value of money is not independent of the economic environment in which it exists. 1924 America was not the same economic environment as 1910 America any more than 2025 America is the same economic environment as the 20's.
If Ford were still making Model T's in a modern plant and another company were producing Model T's on the original 1900's equipment then it would be a more appropriate data point since then we would have a higher TL manufacturing industry making the same lower TL product as a lower TL manufacturing industry.
Other than the niche retro market (where goods are often more pricey due to lower demand) industry generally produces the highest tech it is reliably capable of as that is where the biggest demand and profit lies.
CordwainerFish
Emperor Mongoose
Red or green?
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Could also be economic factors, social ones as well, plus technological progress leveraged from the Great War.
If you link it to an economic boom, easy credit.
Social mobility.
If you link it to an economic boom, easy credit.
Social mobility.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I thought the premise was redesigning a TL-12 ship using TL-15 technology and shipyards to meet the same capabilities as the TL-12 ship. I am mistaken in this?
I think the top two quotes say the the same thing.
Designing a ship with similar capabilities but using higher TL stuff (e.g. using a 1/2 Ton TL15 Powerplant to generate the same amount of power as a 1 Ton TL8 Powerplant) is a different question as then you are not building a TL11 ship.
Arkathan
Emperor Mongoose
Considering he is conflating horses with advances in tech, or ignoring the application of more advanced tech to production, since we know tech levels are gradual and not a sudden break, you are not mistaken. He just does not agree with the rules saying that we can create our own list of mods.
Maybe, if you are referring to the larger amusement park cars modeled after that sort of thing. Otherwise I'd say they aren't - too small to be considered analogues except for having an engine and (usually) 4 wheels. Some of the Indy go-karts would be far more sophisticated than the simple Model-T.
laughdad
Banded Mongoose
The U.S. Army was the most mechanized force during the war. When you look at the Corps-level subordinate units there were a LOT of transport battalions at that level.
laughdad
Banded Mongoose
This new Toyota includes $15,000 of free fuel, costs as little as $17,000
Toyota's Mirai hydrogen fuel-cell sedan costs less to own and drive than some of the most frugal compact cars. But, yes, there is a catch.
Arkathan
Emperor Mongoose
I was thinking more of the Traveller style hydrogen economy.This new Toyota includes $15,000 of free fuel, costs as little as $17,000
Toyota's Mirai hydrogen fuel-cell sedan costs less to own and drive than some of the most frugal compact cars. But, yes, there is a catch.www.greencarreports.com
You can certainly create your own list of mods. I disagree with just making things cheaper without some game balance. TL8 powerplants are different to TL12 power plants, they are cheaper but bulkier for the same power.
We have a number of mods that trade advantage(s) for a disadvantage(s). Just making things cheaper for no disadvantage is not in the spirit of that rule.
But you can rule zero the heck out of it of you want. I am not required to agree with you.
So two nations with the same access to technology chose different models. The ability to produce a certain technology does not automatically drive you to do so if other economic factors are in play. Germany probably lacked equivalent automotive industry and oil reserves to the US. That said in some theatres (e.g. the pacific) the US army extensively used mules. Sometimes the right tool for the job is not the high tech version.
