Ship cost reduction as TL increases?

[MasterGwydion]

The Imperium was TL12 standard 1105 years ago.

The xboat network of the 700s gives a standard of TL13

I have never understood this trend of trying to drop the Third Imperium standard TL - it is 15, it has been TL15 since GDW first wrote about if over forty years ago.

I agree with this, as far as this is how I think it should be, but books like Third Imperium and such seem to disagree.

 

[Condottiere]

Commercially speaking, you might not need jump drives with a range of more than three parsecs for most cases.

Nor, an acceleration greater than factor/three.

 

[phavoc]

swordtart said:
The German army in WW2 was one of the most technologically advanced armies in the period. They were still heavily reliant on horse drawn vehicles.

The U.S. Army was the most mechanized force during the war. When you look at the Corps-level subordinate units there were a LOT of transport battalions at that level.


There's some mythology there, mostly created by German propaganda films, and the need to explain why they so rapidly overran defences.

The British were the most motorized army at the beginning of the war, and they had to leave a lot of that behind at Dunkerque; the Germans seemed to appropriate everything with a motor in the occupied territories.

Anti gravity certainly alters the transportation and logistics picture.

British tanks at Dunkirk were superior to the garbage PzKw 1 and 2s, which were light tanks. The PzKw III was a decent medium tank, but the British had heavy tanks there. Equipment-wise the Germans were probably, at best, equivalent to the British in some areas, and very much deficient in others. Their Panzers would not be triumphant on the battlefield until more widespread deployment of the PzKw III and then the very excellent PzKw IV.

At the beginning of WW2 most of the major militaries still utilized animals as well as vehicles. Many of the vehicles of the day were not all that reliable or all-terrain until a few years later. Unfortunately for the allies the Germans had already developed the MG34 (precursor to the most excellent MG42) and the 8.8cm gun. The Allies weren't terribly out-gunned, but they were out-maneuvered and out-soldiered. Once again the ineptness of Hitler and some of the High Command saved the allies bacon and they didn't allow their field commanders (like Rommel) to be the very good soldiers that they were.

 

[Condottiere]

Doctrine and training.

Manpower pool, trained.

That's two reasons you have conscription when faced with an expansionist neighbour.

 

[MasterGwydion]

A TL20 fuse could be identical to a TL15 fuse.

Sure, it could. Maybe it is a chocolate milkshake that they use as a fuse. /sarcasm Explain to me how well your TL-3 fuses work in your TL-7 home. That is only 4 TLs different. TL-15 to 20 is 5 TLs different.

Some things reach their perfect form (or good enough for the vast majority of people) long before they crash into the technological ceiling. We have high tech hammers that they could not make in the 14th century. But if you broke the fibreglass handle a 14th century tool maker could still replace it with a traditional wooden one if you wanted to and the properties of the hammer need not be significantly changed. The incandescent light bulb has largely been superseded, but we are still using the Edison screw fitting for the LED replacements. If we wanted to we could put those incandescent bulbs right back in.

The actual modern hammer is the nail gun. A primitive hammer with high-tech materials has the same functionality as the low-tech hammer. Back to the OP, a primitive hammer with high-tech materials is way cheaper than the nail gun that replaced it, even if made with modern technology. A primitive hammer can be repaired using low-tech materials in place of the high-tech that broke or wore out. They would not be able to do the same with a pneumatic nail gun.

There are standard cargo containers in Traveller. Is is to far of a stretch to say the standard filter used in the TL15 fusion plant is not the same one that they use on the TL8 fusion plant and kept on using because it was good enough. There is a quirk that older ships (that are cheaper) can have where maintenance cost twice as much (maybe due to non-standard components or possibly because they "drink oil")

 

[phavoc]

Sure, it could. Maybe it is a chocolate milkshake that they use as a fuse. /sarcasm Explain to me how well your TL-3 fuses work in your TL-7 home. That is only 4 TLs different. TL-15 to 20 is 5 TLs different.

The actual modern hammer is the nail gun. A primitive hammer with high-tech materials has the same functionality as the low-tech hammer. Back to the OP, a primitive hammer with high-tech materials is way cheaper than the nail gun that replaced it, even if made with modern technology. A primitive hammer can be repaired using low-tech materials in place of the high-tech that broke or wore out. They would not be able to do the same with a pneumatic nail gun.

Umm, yeah, I agree!.. I am a big fan of modern fuzes with modern explosives. I used to carry 30,000lbs of rockets that could be set off with a 9volt battery. I'da been dead before the rocket even cleared the tube if it accidentally went off (or dry-cleaned my lungs if I was nearby and it "just" went skywards.

Even ye olde fuses for things like dynamite and det cord from WW2 is inferior to the quality of today's fuzes. Some things (like an implosion device) could literally NOT function correctly without fuses of a certain TL.

 

[laughdad]

At the beginning of WW2 most of the major militaries still utilized animals as well as vehicles. Many of the vehicles of the day were not all that reliable or all-terrain until a few years later. Unfortunately for the allies the Germans had already developed the MG34 (precursor to the most excellent MG42) and the 8.8cm gun. The Allies weren't terribly out-gunned, but they were out-maneuvered and out-soldiered. Once again the ineptness of Hitler and some of the High Command saved the allies bacon and they didn't allow their field commanders (like Rommel) to be the very good soldiers that they were.

.

That's an excerpt from Mike Doubler's excellent book, Closing with the Enemy: How GIs Fought the War in Europe, 1944-1945.

So, I'm not going to dispute that the Germans, on a soldier-for-soldier level, managed about a 4:1 kill ratio during the first part of the war, and were still working at something like a 2:1 at the end. But it's also a gross oversimplification to say, "Well, Hitler and the High Command saved the Allies bacon." There are a LOT of assumptions in that statement.

Let's start in the East, shall we? After the initial thrust towards Moscow, the Soviets _owned_ the Germans at the operational level of war. The Russians were maneuvering Armies (Corps to us) and Fronts (Armies to us) while the Germans thought at the tactical level. From the counter-offensive at Stalingrad until the fall of Berlin the Soviets. German tactical successes were rendered inconsequential.

German intelligence sucked, from the strategic level to the tactical level. At the strategic level a great example is the complete neutralization and doubling of the German intelligence network in England. Back East we can look at the Stalingrad counter-offensive. The Germans were caught completely off guard. Meanwhile the Soviets had gotten in close enough before the attack began that their maps had the locations of every heavy weapon in the penetration sectors pin-pointed. The Soviet scouts had been there and gotten back out without detection.

Let's go to the air. Of the 3,182 aces (five or more kills), the Germans dominate the top end of the score sheet and had 1078 aces. The U.S. has 1296 and the first U.S. fighter group (literally the 1st Fighter Group) didn't get to England until the summer of '42. Who had the better training program?

Finally, while the U-boat threat was significant, it was defeated by Allied tactics and technology. The German surface fleet made no significant contribution and certainly could not have prevailed in a trans-Atlantic war.

There's a much longer discussion to be had about poor production decisions (imagine if the Germans had just built PZIVH and Js and not wasted time on PZ Vs, VIs, made 88s instead of giant rail guns, and not even bothered with the V program, and the efficacy of Allied equipment (Garands, and the much maligned Sherman). And we haven't touched on superior U.S. artillery and CAS doctrine.

 

[Condottiere]

The Russians need three years to adapt their doctrine(s), not helped by the usual purges, and the clock started with the Winter War in Nineteen Forty.

Plus, it appears, considerable access to external industrial resources.

The problem with Total War, is, that it tends to become attritional, if you can't limit the conflict to a narrow time frame and objectives, and destroy the enemy's will to continue it, not necessarily the will to fight.

 

[laughdad]

The Russians need three years to adapt their doctrine(s), not helped by the usual purges, and the clock started with the Winter War in Nineteen Forty.

Plus, it appears, considerable access to external industrial resources.

The problem with Total War, is, that it tends to become attritional, if you can't limit the conflict to a narrow time frame and objectives, and destroy the enemy's will to continue it, not necessarily the will to fight.

When you get right down to it, the Germans and the Russians both really got a start with the Spanish Civil War. But the counter-offensive in front of Moscow in '41 looked eerily like Trindafillov and Tukachevksy's concept of an operation, and then Uranus kicks off in November of '42, 17 months after Barbarossa started.

But your point is spot on about total war and the entire discussion...way off-topic from tech levels and starships, is that vertical integration of strategy to tactics is a requirement for war, along with understanding the type of conflict you're getting into. Seems like a dead German wrote about that...

 

[Condottiere]

The principles remain the same, it tends to be an appreciation and integration of modern technology into the military organization.

Sometimes, due to resource constraints.

Speaking of which, military wise, you want stuff that's can increase the performance of weapon systems, so electronics, sensors, computers and software would have the priority for cutting edge.

The second priority would be operating costs.

The third would be how much is the capital outlay.

And that's why you might utilize components that might be rather old in design.

 

[swordtart]

Sure, it could. Maybe it is a chocolate milkshake that they use as a fuse. /sarcasm Explain to me how well your TL-3 fuses work in your TL-7 home. That is only 4 TLs different. TL-15 to 20 is 5 TLs different.

I am not that bothered with trying to justify TL20 it doesn't appear in normal universes and the core rulebook doesn't even explain what it might mean and it is beyond my ability to imagine. I wasn't talking about a low TL societies ability to manufacture higher TL spaceship spares, just a lower TLs starport technicians to fit Higher TL spares that are likely sourced from elsewhere.

The actual modern hammer is the nail gun. A primitive hammer with high-tech materials has the same functionality as the low-tech hammer. Back to the OP, a primitive hammer with high-tech materials is way cheaper than the nail gun that replaced it, even if made with modern technology. A primitive hammer can be repaired using low-tech materials in place of the high-tech that broke or wore out. They would not be able to do the same with a pneumatic nail gun.

If you say so. You have chosen that as a solution but that is not mandated. The requirement is to put in a nail. A TL 2 nail looks pretty much the same as a TL7 nail and that is 5 TLs difference.

If you want to make YTU like that then fill your boots.

 

[Arkathan]

If you want to make YTU like that then fill your boots.

Glad that you agree, now.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I am not that bothered with trying to justify TL20 it doesn't appear in normal universes and the core rulebook doesn't even explain what it might mean and it is beyond my ability to imagine. I wasn't talking about a low TL societies ability to manufacture higher TL spaceship spares, just a lower TLs starport technicians to fit Higher TL spares that are likely sourced from elsewhere.

If you say so. You have chosen that as a solution but that is not mandated. The requirement is to put in a nail. A TL 2 nail looks pretty much the same as a TL7 nail and that is 5 TLs difference.

If you want to make YTU like that then fill your boots.

Then a light bulb is the same a star because they both emit light and are both roughly the same shape? That seems overly broad. Although what the TL of a star is? That I do not know.