Ship Suggestions/Changes - ISA

[Da Boss]

Hey Jim

does sound a nasty fleet although Quite like to try my standard Centauri fleet against it:

Liati, Balvarin, Maximus, 3 x Demos

 

[Locutus9956]

I see that going more or less as follows:

Centauri:
Liati - Ganked by Bluestars and Whitestars
Demos - Ripped to bits by WS Fighters
Balvarin - ignored and its fighter compliment utterly raped by WS fighters (and Nials)
Maxiums - either ignored since its relatively short ranged and all the ISA stuff is way faster (and for that matter all the Centauri stuff can either slow down to stay near it and thus sacrifice their maneuverability and speed or leave it on its own) or ganked by the ISA fleet once the Liati goes down

ISA:
Whitestar fighters + Nials - Should come through more or less unscathed, they should happily win any dogfights due to a combination of sheer dogfight ability and numbers, even vs carrier assisted Raziks. After that they should have a fairly easy time chasing Demos around tearing them proverbial 'new ones'
Whitestars - The Liati could take them down but I dont reckon it will LIVE long enough to really make its presence felt with the entire ISA fleet most likely jumping up and down on it repeatedly from the word go.
3 or 4 will go down over the game if they get focused on enough but if theyre understimated as they so often are they'll come through more or less unhurt. The usual achilles heel to BS and WS of fighters should be more or less moot here as the WS fighters should easily get fighter superiority in a turn or two....

To come back to the Liati quickly though, during the first turn it will likely get shot at by all the ISA fleet minus MAYBE a whitestar or a couple of bluestars if the Centauri get to shoot first, either way its still likely to get whomped by around 30AD of Molecular pulsars, hitting on a 4+, ignoring its dodge save and doing double damage, thus inflicting, on average about 30 dmg before factoring in crits etc. And thats assuming none of the ISA CAF, or get a scout lock (if using scout WSs) and doesnt include any extra dmg from the WS beams. The Liati has 27 hit points. It's almost CERTAINLY going to die on turn one.

 

[Triggy]

I see that going more or less as follows:

Centauri:
Liati - Ganked by Bluestars and Whitestars
Demos - Ripped to bits by WS Fighters
Balvarin - ignored and its fighter compliment utterly raped by WS fighters (and Nials)
Maxiums - either ignored since its relatively short ranged and all the ISA stuff is way faster (and for that matter all the Centauri stuff can either slow down to stay near it and thus sacrifice their maneuverability and speed or leave it on its own) or ganked by the ISA fleet once the Liati goes down

ISA:
Whitestar fighters + Nials - Should come through more or less unscathed, they should happily win any dogfights due to a combination of sheer dogfight ability and numbers, even vs carrier assisted Raziks. After that they should have a fairly easy time chasing Demos around tearing them proverbial 'new ones'
Whitestars - The Liati could take them down but I dont reckon it will LIVE long enough to really make its presence felt with the entire ISA fleet most likely jumping up and down on it repeatedly from the word go.
3 or 4 will go down over the game if they get focused on enough but if theyre understimated as they so often are they'll come through more or less unhurt. The usual achilles heel to BS and WS of fighters should be more or less moot here as the WS fighters should easily get fighter superiority in a turn or two....

The ISA could still win but it's not nearly so one-sided as you make it out to be.

12 WS Fighters (there are no Nials in that fleet) against 8 Raziks (with the Raziks having a better dogfight score and the ability to get rescued by the Balvarin) is effectively an even match. Certainly it will take long enough to ensure that the rest of the ships will fight it out and the fighters won't have too much effect on the battle (other than the WS Fighters giving away VPs).

The Demos/Liati "squadron" (they don't actually need to be squadroned) can run around almost as well as the ISA fleet. With potentially the Maximus either giving Interceptors to the Liati or AF to the Raziks, and the Liati moving last to ensure that only a couple of ships can target it each turn, it could be an interesting fight.

 

[Locutus9956]

Oh I'm not saying the Centauri cant put up a fight, but just that I reckon if both players know what they're doing the advantage would be firmly with the ISA side. It's not a done deal by any means but I do think it's more likely the ISA will come out on top. And dont forget regarding the fighter battle that there could be Nials in there too depending on which type of WS is used...

 

[Rawwar]

Well since the White Star fighter has an accurate gun & a better range (ie 16" move) & will all be deployed from the start I'd be looking to get within 2" & fire that. Though anti Fighter from the Maximus could make things interesting.

Might have a bash at this next time we're in our gaming room, could be entertaining :wink:

Probably need to sit down & make sure I'm aware of all the ships traits etc which ever side I take.

 

[Burger]

Well since the White Star fighter has an accurate gun & a better range (ie 16" move) & will all be deployed from the start I'd be looking to get within 2" & fire that. Though anti Fighter from the Maximus could make things interesting.

Absolutely, if he moves his fighters first and positions his Raziks poorly, one WS fighter can split its 3 attack dice, needing 2+ to hit, and most likely kill all 3 raziks in one turn and be able to dodge any return fire!

 

[Rawwar]

So how would combat this ISA set up with the Drakh Burger?

It looks like I spent X amount of months having my Narn getting owned by the ISA only to find that if he builds along these lines he'll own my Drakh too.

I hate em :evil:

 

[Burger]

Thats a very tough fleet for Drakh to face. Best shot would probably be light raiders, you need the accurate beams to kill the fighters and blue stars. So I'd take 2 carriers filled with LR and 2 more LR. But I wouldn't really fancy my chances much.

 

[Locutus9956]

Suggestions?

Prayer Mr Rawwar, the ISA do not take prisoners....

(well ok they probably DO but I stand by my mangled Wrath of Khan quote for geek comedy's sake)

Actually that fleet I DO think the Narn should have a decent time against if you build your fleet right:

I would personally suggest a healthy dose of multiple G'Kariths to the face. The line 'Dodge this' springs to mind :twisted:

(Yes the Dag'Kar packs more whallop in in it's mine salvoes but frankly tripple damage weapons tend to come off badly vs adaptive armour, the best way to deal with it is lots of small hits rather than few big blasts). On top of this G'Kariths carry Frazis too so youve got some attack fighters to smack him about with after youve pulsar mined all his dammned WS Fighters back to the beginning of time

In 5 point Raid, 4 G'Kariths and a T'Rann could be interesting. That said the T'Ran is unlikely to ever get to use it's guns vs the ISA fighters so perhaps just taking 4 wings of Fighters instead might be better (that said again though it IS a nice damage sponge that might draw some fire away from the GKariths. The real trick with this fleet is to surivive long enough to blast all the annoying little buggers to pieces. Still as long as only your pulsar mines are in range you can more or less close blast doors with impunity...

 

[Locutus9956]

In fact: vs a Bluestar each volley from a G'Karith will usually inflict on average dice, 2 damage. So if you can get one in the blast from 2 of them you'll usually cripple it, and if you can get one in the blast from 3 its probably going to die.

Now against that fleet if your opponent clumps up his ships in such a way as to allow you to hit multiples in the blast from one emine volley then he deserves everything he gets but all the same you should be able to do some damage fairly rapidly.

 

[Rawwar]

No I've just had a look at the Drakh list & I've got that sinking feeling really.

I had a couple of Shadow Furies chasing a White Star at the weekend & I just couldn't shake them off until I was able to All Power To Engines one turn then spin back on them the next & dare them to come & take a turn of retribution.

 

[Rawwar]

In 5 point Raid, 4 G'Kariths and a T'Rann could be interesting. That said the T'Ran is unlikely to ever get to use it's guns vs the ISA fighters so perhaps just taking 4 wings of Fighters instead might be better (that said again though it IS a nice damage sponge that might draw some fire away from the GKariths. The real trick with this fleet is to surivive long enough to blast all the annoying little buggers to pieces. Still as long as only your pulsar mines are in range you can more or less close blast doors with impunity...

Well I've just built up all my 6 G'Kariths & built 4 T'Loth/T'Ranns the other week so this build is a distinct possibility. Seeing all those E Mine launchers would probably make him baulk at least and if I get him to hesitate a bit then there's something for me to take advantage of.

Hmm I’ll think along those lines thanks.

 

[Locutus9956]

Well it's just an untried idea so don't thank me yet I'll be interested to hear how it goes but on paper at least it has the potential to make very short work of the bluestars and fighters. The Whitestars are a bit of a tougher prospect but even they wont last THAT long under a sustained emining (and the real key is once youve stripped away his fighters you can swamp him with Frazis (and yes I know he can outrun them but if you keep your Frazis between him and your ships he'll have to move into their strike range to fire on your ships )

As for the Drakh, cant think of anything better than Burgers suggestion of 'as many light raiders as legally allowable'. They should slaughter the bluestars and make relatively short work of the whitestars but I doubt they'll have a tough time dealing with the fighters and will die in droves themselves.

But still those accurate beams can be a huge pain in the posterior to the ISA, the key as always with them though is to focus all your fire on one target at a time, make sure you KILL one target rather than merely hurting a two or three.

All that said if you REALLY want to build a fleet to drive him up the wall: Gaim Granted the new version of the fleet is MUCH nicer than the old 'broken beyond belief' version but I still cant see how an ISA fleet would expect to deal with a typical Gaim force unless they were specifically tailored to face them (ie LOADS of NoLotars)

 

[Foxmeister]

In fact: vs a Bluestar each volley from a G'Karith will usually inflict on average dice, 2 damage. So if you can get one in the blast from 2 of them you'll usually cripple it, and if you can get one in the blast from 3 its probably going to die.

Ahem - two raid level ships "ganging" up on one patrol level Blue Star? Fine, you can potentially cripple two Blue Stars in a single turn, but in the meantime, what are those White Stars going to be doing?

It's a very poor tradeoff in my opinion.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Rawwar]

Ahem - two raid level ships "ganging" up on one patrol level Blue Star? Fine, you can potentially cripple two Blue Stars in a single turn, but in the meantime, what are those White Stars going to be doing?

It's a very poor tradeoff in my opinion.

Regards,

Well to be honest I don't like the idea of all those Double & Triple Damage shots I'm going to take in return but I do know our ISA player does not like E Mines so I might be able to take advantage of some hesitation?

If he piles in like he's apt to at the moment I think I'll be in bits. But Hey ho

 

[Locutus9956]

In fact: vs a Bluestar each volley from a G'Karith will usually inflict on average dice, 2 damage. So if you can get one in the blast from 2 of them you'll usually cripple it, and if you can get one in the blast from 3 its probably going to die.

Ahem - two raid level ships "ganging" up on one patrol level Blue Star? Fine, you can potentially cripple two Blue Stars in a single turn, but in the meantime, what are those White Stars going to be doing?

It's a very poor tradeoff in my opinion.

Regards,

Dave

Yes it would be howevery those patrol level ships have only so much range and so to attack will have to get close if you keep your fleet grouped together if they want to attack you they have to close up and as soon as they get closer together all of a sudden your NOT gangin up on one your ganging up on mutliples of them AT ONCE with your 3" blast radius.... It's easy to think 'oh I'll just keep my ships more than 6" apart, but it's easier said than done when you actually close in to fire....

Another trick you can do is to attack him with your fighters BEFORE his fighters are all dead, if he dogfights you then you can emine them all, sure you'll lose your Frazis but if it results in heavily damage ISA ships and some dead WS Fighters I personally would call that a worthy trade off

 

[Da Boss]

I see that going more or less as follows:

Centauri:
Liati - Ganked by Bluestars and Whitestars
Demos - Ripped to bits by WS Fighters
Balvarin - ignored and its fighter compliment utterly raped by WS fighters (and Nials)
Maxiums - either ignored since its relatively short ranged and all the ISA stuff is way faster (and for that matter all the Centauri stuff can either slow down to stay near it and thus sacrifice their maneuverability and speed or leave it on its own) or ganked by the ISA fleet once the Liati goes down

ISA:
Whitestar fighters + Nials - Should come through more or less unscathed, they should happily win any dogfights due to a combination of sheer dogfight ability and numbers, even vs carrier assisted Raziks. After that they should have a fairly easy time chasing Demos around tearing them proverbial 'new ones'
Whitestars - The Liati could take them down but I dont reckon it will LIVE long enough to really make its presence felt with the entire ISA fleet most likely jumping up and down on it repeatedly from the word go.
3 or 4 will go down over the game if they get focused on enough but if theyre understimated as they so often are they'll come through more or less unhurt. The usual achilles heel to BS and WS of fighters should be more or less moot here as the WS fighters should easily get fighter superiority in a turn or two....

The ISA could still win but it's not nearly so one-sided as you make it out to be.

12 WS Fighters (there are no Nials in that fleet) against 8 Raziks (with the Raziks having a better dogfight score and the ability to get rescued by the Balvarin) is effectively an even match. Certainly it will take long enough to ensure that the rest of the ships will fight it out and the fighters won't have too much effect on the battle (other than the WS Fighters giving away VPs).

The Demos/Liati "squadron" (they don't actually need to be squadroned) can run around almost as well as the ISA fleet. With potentially the Maximus either giving Interceptors to the Liati or AF to the Raziks, and the Liati moving last to ensure that only a couple of ships can target it each turn, it could be an interesting fight.

Like I said I'd like to try it

Other things to remember
2 Rutarians at +3 dogfight from the Liati - never forget them........(and which may or may not be recovered as that thread on rulesmasters was never really answered - I would say no)
In scores - Centauri +4 (+1 from Balvarian), ISA +2 - thats a very useful advantage esp if you want to jump his fighters with the Raziks (at +4 dogfight and a recovery)

Also if its a chance to play Jim again well that a reward in itself 8)

 

[Burger]

2 Rutarians at +3 dogfight from the Liati - never forget them........(and which may or may not be recovered as that thread on rulesmasters was never really answered - I would say no)

It was answered as "no" with a possible change in the future. But no change has come, so it remains "no".