Runequest vs heroquest

[RMS]

Did you get the 1.2 patch? fixes some unreachable locations like that.

No I didn't. I'll have to look into that. It really frustrated me because I'd completed everything else I wanted to do in the game.

 

[atgxtg]

Did you get the 1.2 patch? fixes some unreachable locations like that.

No I didn't. I'll have to look into that. It really frustrated me because I'd completed everything else I wanted to do in the game.

Now that Rurik mentioned it, I do believe that there was a bug in the game about not recogizing one of the treasure maps when you were standing righton the spot.

THere was also a glitch with one of the Pirate Hunters too, where it would cause the game to crash.

 

[RMS]

Back to the topic-How would you handle the "winning" smile/serving wench idea I placed above? It does seem sortof difficult to handle in HQ terms.

This is a case where you could easily use the assymetric extended contest suggested early (by Simon I believe). (I'll back up just a little here.) I'd picture this as the classic case of someone attempting to talk someone else out of killing them. The sword could be drawn, but the wielder is struggling internally to go through with it. If he gets a high level of victory, he runs her through with the sword despite her protests. If he gets a lower level of victory, he gives her a nasty wound, but can't follow through with the killing blow. (She may still die if she doesn't receive prompt medical attention however.) If she gets a low level of victory, she talks him out of outright killing her, but he still has other options of harming her: slapping her around, tieing her up, etc. She just avoids immediate death but isn't out of danger. If she gets a very high level of victory, she may talk him into leaving her alone, convince him that she's not the one he wants, talk him into giving her a sporting chance, or similar.

With simple contests, after he says that he intends to kill her, she could declare that she'll try to talk her way out of it. Then I'd just run that simple contest first since logically any attempt to talk someone out of killing you has to procede their attempts to go through with it. It'd be based on her Cute Smile (+ augments) vs. his Merciless (or similar + augments). I'd just use the results of that to bound the next contest. Similar to above, if she wins, she talks him out of finishing her off, but if it's a lower victory for either of them, he has other options for dealing with her. Based on circumstance, he could beat her up and leave her, capture her without getting too violent, turn her over to someone else to deal with, or similar. With a strong victory, he could go onto his Sword vs. her physical or magical defense and attempt to kill her.

The deal with HQ is that this is really hard to answer in the abstract. In a concrete game, it works out much easier because all of the PCs and NPCs have personalty and history that indicates pretty strongly what is appropriate and what's not. If the sword wielder is a Humakt who's sword an Oath to kill the girl, then no attempt at Cute Smile vs. anything is going to stop him from pulling his sword and hacking her down. If the character is an Orlanthi farmboy who's never killed before, then the situation is a fair bit different. Also note that in this case, I'd probably allow the player to decide that they have a Merciless personality trait at 13 or 17 and simply add it to the character sheet, so they'd have some chance at following through...if the player believes their character would do that.

 

[atgxtg]

No, you missed my angle on it.

Rather than character A (our hero) using "Cute Smile" to influence/oppsed Character B (the one set to kill him), what if Character A uses "Cute Smile" on Character C (serving wemch standing behind Character B) to charm her into knocking Character B out cold with a mug of ale?

 

[simonh]

With simple contests, after he says that he intends to kill her, she could declare that she'll try to talk her way out of it. Then I'd just run that simple contest first since logically any attempt to talk someone out of killing you has to procede their attempts to go through with it. It'd be based on her Cute Smile (+ augments) vs. his Merciless (or similar + augments). I'd just use the results of that to bound the next contest.

That's how I prefer to handle situations like that too, but HQ does allow the stated goal of an extended contest to be changed mid-contest, so what started as an argumen, say, can morph logicaly into a combat. The problem is that contests can shift into werid and seeminly incongruent rival goals. In practice it rarely hapens and can actualy be a lot of fun, but it can be disconcerting if you're new to the game.

The deal with HQ is that this is really hard to answer in the abstract. In a concrete game, it works out much easier because all of the PCs and NPCs have personalty and history that indicates pretty strongly what is appropriate and what's not.[/quote

That's definitely my experience. It's main advantage as a system is that players can create exactly the character that they imagine, with very little restriction on what that can be. You essentialy make up the 'rules' as you go, through dialogue with the Narrator to refine exactly what your character's abilities can be used for, which is an aspect of 'rules' that is usualy very well defined (read 'restricted') in other systems.

If the sword wielder is a Humakt who's sword an Oath to kill the girl, then no attempt at Cute Smile vs. anything is going to stop him from pulling his sword and hacking her down.

In any of my games the Humakti had better have some decent augments from his 'Devotee of Humakt', and related abilities to back that up. Not all Humakti are perfect exemplars of everythign Humakti. They're only human (Or, er, trolls. Or whatever), after all.

Simon Hibbs

 

[RMS]

If the sword wielder is a Humakt who's sword an Oath to kill the girl, then no attempt at Cute Smile vs. anything is going to stop him from pulling his sword and hacking her down.

In any of my games the Humakti had better have some decent augments from his 'Devotee of Humakt', and related abilities to back that up. Not all Humakti are perfect exemplars of everythign Humakti. They're only human (Or, er, trolls. Or whatever), after all.

Simon Hibbs

I understand your argument based on what I wrote. I was thinking very specifically of a well blooded Devotee. I could agree with you for an Initiate, but not for a Devotee. Plus, recall that an Oath is magic which her mundane Cute Smile really can't counter in any way, which was really the point. (In actual game play a Devotee would have such high abilities in everything relevant that this would be a completely moot point in any event.)

 

[atgxtg]

No, you missed my angle on it.

Rather than character A (our hero) using "Cute Smile" to influence/oppsed Character B (the one set to kill him), what if Character A uses "Cute Smile" on Character C (serving wemch standing behind Character B) to charm her into knocking Character B out cold with a mug of ale?

I'd still like to hear from a HQ GM how they would handle the quote situation. I does seem a bit of a problem to me.

 

[RMS]

No, you missed my angle on it.

Rather than character A (our hero) using "Cute Smile" to influence/oppsed Character B (the one set to kill him), what if Character A uses "Cute Smile" on Character C (serving wemch standing behind Character B) to charm her into knocking Character B out cold with a mug of ale?

I'd still like to hear from a HQ GM how they would handle the quote situation. I does seem a bit of a problem to me.

I didn't feel like typing another reply after the first one that was long and didn't do any good, so initially I ignored it. This one seems very straight forward to me, so that's why I missed it. If C is a PC, then obviously the player determines what happens. If C is an NPC, then the GM bases the decision on her personality and the relationship she has with A, just like running an NPC in any other game. (No version of RQ could handle this any differently.) I really can't see many situations where I'd roll for this.

However, HQ does have rules that could be used if one really wanted to. For example, if A has no relationship with B outside of some friendly conversation, then the PC could roll for A's Cute Smile (+augments) vs. C's resistence against it plus any appropriate augments and modifiers. A default of 6, 13, or 17 would be appropriate if no direct ability was known (or listed for most NPCs). Is that what you're looking for? Of course, the die roll determines what actually happens. With a bad defeat, C might point A out or egg on B. With a lesser defeat, C probably just stands by with concern, but no action. With a minor victory, C talks up B and gives A a chance to slip away (or similar), and only with a strong victory is A able to get C to take an active roll (mug over the head) of B.

Like I said at first though, I would most likely roleplay all of this. HQ is a rules light game and an important part of it is minimizing die rolls IMO. Die rolls are interesting in it, and can be much fun to interpret, but it really misses the point to roll for anything that can be determined otherwise through play.

 

[atgxtg]

What I was wonder though is how woukld a GM handle this is used in the middle of a contest. For instance, the classic cinema scence where two guys are fighting and the girl smahes a vae over one the head on one of the guys (often the worng one).

Would a GM interrupt the extended contest to run a simple contest? I mean it is hard to stop and extended contest to do some roleplaying.

 

[burdock]

atgtx wrote

What I was wonder though is how woukld a GM handle this is used in the middle of a contest. For instance, the classic cinema scence where two guys are fighting and the girl smahes a vae over one the head on one of the guys (often the worng one).

You could handle this by using the Lend Advantage Points mechanic. She increases your APs by distracting your opponent with a bottle smashed over the head. Or she can simply be considered to be joining in the extended contest so your opponent has two people nabbing at his APs. Or you could run it as a Simple Contest (which I think would fit in with the movie versions) where a success would result in the oppponent collapsing unconscious. Whatever way you run it there is a good chance that she will succeed. She has probably done this trick many times. i imagine her skill would be 10w3. But your PCs issue is in convincing her to do it by looking attractive, looking vulnerable or being commanding, etc.

 

[atgxtg]

atgtx wrote

What I was wonder though is how woukld a GM handle this is used in the middle of a contest. For instance, the classic cinema scence where two guys are fighting and the girl smahes a vae over one the head on one of the guys (often the worng one).

You could handle this by using the Lend Advantage Points mechanic. She increases your APs by distracting your opponent with a bottle smashed over the head. Or she can simply be considered to be joining in the extended contest so your opponent has two people nabbing at his APs. Or you could run it as a Simple Contest (which I think would fit in with the movie versions) where a success would result in the oppponent collapsing unconscious. Whatever way you run it there is a good chance that she will succeed. She has probably done this trick many times. i imagine her skill would be 10w3. But your PCs issue is in convincing her to do it by looking attractive, looking vulnerable or being commanding, etc.

10W3?:shock: Wow you coll people sure know some tough serving wenches!

So if I wanted to I count just interrupt or have her join the extended contest (i figure if her stunt does't work Character B will consider her a a contesntant), and turn in into a group extended contest, giving her a nice fat +20 situation mod for attacking from behind with surprise?

So if she shoots the whole thing , and B isn't sometone like Harrak the Beserk, she should probably knock down B's AP. If not enough to KO him, at least enoguht for A stand a better chance. Maybe even get a situational mod for B getting distracted (a surprise crack on the noggin does that). Okay.

THe example does seem to point out why HQ isn't the game for me. I prefer something less abstract. I've actually ran this situation in a couple of RPGs (Flashing Blades and Bond for starters) and prefer a more detailed approch.

Thanks for giving me a better understanding of how to run HQ, though.

 

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[duncan_disorderly]

No, it does not. It represents the gaining of some kind of advantage over the opponent. A character with low APs can still win quickly if he makes a desperation stake.

If I even own a casino, I'm inviting you. Casinos thrive on people who believe just that. While it is mathematically possible, the net game effect is similat to saying that a 1st level fighter has a chance against a 10 level fighter. Mathematically yes, realistically, no.

If someone is overmatched in HQ, the bid really only determines how long it takes for them to be defeated. If you are using Spear 17 and the other guy has Greataxe 17W3 you could desparate bid you socks off. Barring some hHero Points and a series of "one in 400 chance" rolls, you are toaste.

Nope, you are confusing AP and ability here. If someone has a 3 mastery advantage (once all augments and modifers are included) then you are toast any whioh way you look at it - your best rolled result will be a critical vs a fumble, but then their three masteries will bump them up to a crit vs crit tie. Any time they don't fumble they will be bumping you down once they have achieved a critical (so a rolled crit vs failure will end up as success vs crit - a rolled success vs success (which is the most likely result on a 17 vs 17w3 contest) will be a fumble vs crit...

But this has nothing whatsoever to do with being able to win a contest from a position of low AP (whether using desperation stakes or not)

If both characters are 17W3 - so starting with AP totals of 77, but one has been consistently loosing contests and is now down to 17, they can still bid up to the original starting total (the "desperation stake") which, with a good result will end the contest in their favour. It is (obviously) a potentially risky strategy (it's not called desperation just because it sounds pretty...) but if you can use an ability which force the opponent to defend with a much lower rated ability and/or can burn a hero point where the opponent can't then you can swing the odds in your favour

Also it is not true that a HQ contest has no consequence until one character drops to/below 0AP. Firstly because a HQ contest might not be an extended contest so AP might not even be used (and this, unlike D&D, has no connection as to whether this is a combat situatiuon or not), and secondly because even when it is an extended contest there is always the option for the winner of any round to trade AP loss for wounds, giving their opponent a penalty on the dice rather than reducing their AP

 

[duncan_disorderly]

The problem with your argument is that since APs are vaguely defiend units used to resolve everything in HQ, then then it is impossible for them NOT to repent something. The second you dicde to make any sort of test or comparison, be it combat ability, weath, beatuty, or size of a fleet, it becomes a value expressed in APs.

Nope.

Any time you choose to use an extended contest to resolve a test you need to assign AP's to each side, in order to represent the relative advantage held by each participant - with a higher value representing a greater advantage and values approaching zero representing that you are close to losing the contest.

 

[atgxtg]

No, it does not. It represents the gaining of some kind of advantage over the opponent. A character with low APs can still win quickly if he makes a desperation stake.

If I even own a casino, I'm inviting you. Casinos thrive on people who believe just that. While it is mathematically possible, the net game effect is similat to saying that a 1st level fighter has a chance against a 10 level fighter. Mathematically yes, realistically, no.

If someone is overmatched in HQ, the bid really only determines how long it takes for them to be defeated. If you are using Spear 17 and the other guy has Greataxe 17W3 you could desparate bid you socks off. Barring some hHero Points and a series of "one in 400 chance" rolls, you are toaste.

Nope, you are confusing AP and ability here. If someone has a 3 mastery advantage (once all augments and modifers are included) then you are toast any whioh way you look at it - your best rolled result will be a critical vs a fumble, but then their three masteries will bump them up to a crit vs crit tie. Any time they don't fumble they will be bumping you down once they have achieved a critical (so a rolled crit vs failure will end up as success vs crit - a rolled success vs success (which is the most likely result on a 17 vs 17w3 contest) will be a fumble vs crit...

But this has nothing whatsoever to do with being able to win a contest from a position of low AP (whether using desperation stakes or not)

If both characters are 17W3 - so starting with AP totals of 77, but one has been consistently loosing contests and is now down to 17, they can still bid up to the original starting total (the "desperation stake") which, with a good result will end the contest in their favour. It is (obviously) a potentially risky strategy (it's not called desperation just because it sounds pretty...) but if you can use an ability which force the opponent to defend with a much lower rated ability and/or can burn a hero point where the opponent can't then you can swing the odds in your favour

But, both character don't start off at 17W3. One character had a starting ability of 17. Keeping in mind that while AP's drop the ability doesn't. So both being at 17W3 doesn't factor in. Now both could get 77 AP to start, assuming that the 17 AP guy had some followers to lend him APs, on something else that would boost his APs. BUt his skill of 17 would not be altered.


And I'll state this again, the chances of winning are one in 400. Regardless of how many APs the lesser skilled character has, the 3 bumps for mastery virtusally ensure that the 17W3 guy will get a cirtical. He will probably be bumping down the 17 guy too. The only chance the lesser skilled guy has it to get a better critical. Without spending HeroPoints this means the 17 has to rolls a 1 (critical), while the opponent rolls a 20 (a fumble, bumped up by 3 masteries to a critical). That is a 1 in 400 chance.

Thow in Hero Points and the outcome varies a bit more depening on if the 17W3 considers it worthwhile to spend some. If he does, and the 17 doesn't, the 17W3 will win every contest, since he will critical and the 17 guy will be bumped down.

If both spend HP the results are back to 1 in 400.

If the 17 guy spends a HP and the higher skilled guy doesn't, the odds improve slightly, by giving the 17 guy the win if he rolls a success vs the 17W3's fumble, that is another 16 out of 400 chance, or 4.25% chance of winning.

THe lesser skilled character's only real chance is to get that series of low rolls to win. And yes, that applies to the 17 guy with a group of followers who can desparate bid 77 AP. Even if he gets that one in 400 roll, the best result he can get is to transfer 1/2 the AP. THis won't take the 17W3 down, and the 17W3 guy can still whittle down the AP and get them back.

Also it is not true that a HQ contest has no consequence until one character drops to/below 0AP. Firstly because a HQ contest might not be an extended contest so AP might not even be used (and this, unlike D&D, has no connection as to whether this is a combat situatiuon or not), and secondly because even when it is an extended contest there is always the option for the winner of any round to trade AP loss for wounds, giving their opponent a penalty on the dice rather than reducing their AP

Point one. True in ia simple contest AP don't factor in. That is entirely based upon relative ability.

As for trading wounds, where is this in the HQ rules? All I See is the party shot rules, and those are designed to be used against a defeated (no APs) opponent.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

But, both character don't start off at 17W3. One character had a starting ability of 17.

Well if you choose to discuss the chance of characters with different skills then maybe, but that is not what the original point said... (empasis added by me)

No, it does not. It represents the gaining of some kind of advantage over the opponent. A character with low APs can still win quickly if he makes a desperation stake.

Nothing about realtive skill levels there

THe lesser skilled character's only real chance is to get that series of low rolls to win. And yes, that applies to the 17 guy with a group of followers who can desparate bid 77 AP. Even if he gets that one in 400 roll, the best result he can get is to transfer 1/2 the AP. THis won't take the 17W3 down, and the 17W3 guy can still whittle down the AP and get them back.

No, his only chances are either to treat it as a simple contest so he only needs to make that 1 in 400 roll once (with all the other caveats and issues discussed) or to find a way to frame the contest as something other than a 17 vs 17W3 contest...

Also it is not true that a HQ contest has no consequence until one character drops to/below 0AP. Firstly because a HQ contest might not be an extended contest so AP might not even be used (and this, unlike D&D, has no connection as to whether this is a combat situatiuon or not), and secondly because even when it is an extended contest there is always the option for the winner of any round to trade AP loss for wounds, giving their opponent a penalty on the dice rather than reducing their AP

Point one. True in ia simple contest AP don't factor in. That is entirely based upon relative ability.

As for trading wounds, where is this in the HQ rules? All I See is the party shot rules, and those are designed to be used against a defeated (no APs) opponent.

See p.189: Trading AP for Penalties

 

[atgxtg]

But, both character don't start off at 17W3. One character had a starting ability of 17.

Well if you choose to discuss the chance of characters with different skills then maybe, but that is not what the original point said... (empasis added by me)

No, it does not. It represents the gaining of some kind of advantage over the opponent. A character with low APs can still win quickly if he makes a desperation stake.

Nothing about realtive skill levels there

You didn't go back far enought (it was al long running debate). THe orginal point made was the comparision to AP's and Hit points in D&D.

For isntance this :

Oh yest they are. AP's are based upon the skill you are using. So a guy with Sword Combat 17 starts the fight with 17 APs, plus whatever augments he can get, and these AP are what are bit and lost during the fight. If anything APS are even more closely tied to fighting ability that HP because as APs are lost so is fighting ability.

Hit Points in D&D are also tied to fighting ability. The number of HP that a character has is based upon class and level. THe more combat capable the class, the greater the HP.

Yes, they are quite similar in play. As combantat's fight, these points are lost. In both cases the points do not necessarily represnet actual wounds but the relative situation of the fight-until someone goes into negatives. Once out of points, characters in both games suffer peanlties.

Functionally, there isn't much difference. Roll a D20 and someone looses points.


As to the games being similar in other ways, well, it is probably one of the greatest ironies of the RPG world that as innovatives as RQ was, it wasn't well suited for GLorantha. D&D, with it's unrealistic, larger than life, player characters is actually a better match.

Is a bit closer to the orgin of the statment, and the source of the 17 skill.

THe lesser skilled character's only real chance is to get that series of low rolls to win. And yes, that applies to the 17 guy with a group of followers who can desparate bid 77 AP. Even if he gets that one in 400 roll, the best result he can get is to transfer 1/2 the AP. THis won't take the 17W3 down, and the 17W3 guy can still whittle down the AP and get them back.

No, his only chances are either to treat it as a simple contest so he only needs to make that 1 in 400 roll once (with all the other caveats and issues discussed) or to find a way to frame the contest as something other than a 17 vs 17W3 contest...

I agree that he is much better off in a simple contest. I'll reinterate my Casion anaaolgy here. THe odds are so far against the 17 skill character that his best hope is to get lucky once in a winner take all situation.

However, how the contest is handled is based on the GM. THe fregqeuncy of extended tests really varry from GM to GM.

Even switching abilities to reframe the contest is very GM dependant and (hopefully) restricted. Otherwise the players will always trey to turn the contest into thier best ability vs. the oppoent's worse. Yeah, the 17 skill guy might have Carry Heavy Loads 12W4, or Basketweaving 10W5 but ithey really shouldn't be allowed to stop the 17W3 guy from running the 17 skill guy through.

Sure a GM can run it that way. As a player, it isn't hard to rationalize any skill. For instance, droppoing you backpack on the 17W3 guy, or snaring him in basket grass----but IMO that is pretty stupid. You will eventually wind up with characters with one skill with all thier points in it. Take unified field theory or befriend anybody.

Also it is not true that a HQ contest has no consequence until one character drops to/below 0AP. Firstly because a HQ contest might not be an extended contest so AP might not even be used (and this, unlike D&D, has no connection as to whether this is a combat situatiuon or not), and secondly because even when it is an extended contest there is always the option for the winner of any round to trade AP loss for wounds, giving their opponent a penalty on the dice rather than reducing their AP

Point one. True in ia simple contest AP don't factor in. That is entirely based upon relative ability.

As for trading wounds, where is this in the HQ rules? All I See is the party shot rules, and those are designed to be used against a defeated (no APs) opponent.

See p.189: Trading AP for Penalties[/quote]


Boy, I wish I had seen that before, it would have helped with my AP as HP argument.

However, it isn't a "always has the option" sort of rule. It is actually something in there as a GM
's option. Mostly to be used agianst PC heroes by important villians so thay they don't come out of a fight completely unscathed.

If used more freely that suggrested in the book, it would be more of a balcing factor when a fight involves mulitple combants, or oif the combatants were more closely matched. In this case, even if we assumed that the bid was 77AP, and that the 17 got his one in 400, the -11 hurts won't make much difference for this contest, but it will ensure that the 17W3 guy (now 6W3) remembers him for a few weeks.

 

[homerjsinnott]

Wow I'm impressed, the thread just carried on like nothing happened!
I've never seem a spambot post in the middle of a thread before, or was that human?