Runequest vs heroquest

[RMS]

I think the thing about HQ that is being illustrated here is that more than most RPGs, it is very subjective and what is and isn't allowed depends on the GM's intepretation, and how well a player can influnce that.

What this means is that there really isn't a common set of rules to fall back on or rely on. Upon how well you know and trsut the GM.

In HQ though, just how any of these things work can vary from GM to GM and even from encounter to encounter.

The irony here is that you could replace HQ with D&D (in the early days) everywhere above and have the same thing. The only difference is that HQ is deliberately vague and leaves much up to GM/player interpretation. (I should not here that it's not GM, or shouldn't be. HQ is a game that gives a lot more power to players than traditional RPGs, so it's a two way street.) In (early) D&D things were vague because the writing wasn't clear at all and almost nobody owned everything, so there were huge differences in interpretation from table to table. This continued to some extend until the time I stopped playing, which was in the earlier AD&D stage.

 

[atgxtg]

I think the thing about HQ that is being illustrated here is that more than most RPGs, it is very subjective and what is and isn't allowed depends on the GM's intepretation, and how well a player can influnce that.

What this means is that there really isn't a common set of rules to fall back on or rely on. Upon how well you know and trsut the GM.

In HQ though, just how any of these things work can vary from GM to GM and even from encounter to encounter.

The irony here is that you could replace HQ with D&D (in the early days) everywhere above and have the same thing. The only difference is that HQ is deliberately vague and leaves much up to GM/player interpretation. (I should not here that it's not GM, or shouldn't be. HQ is a game that gives a lot more power to players than traditional RPGs, so it's a two way street.) In (early) D&D things were vague because the writing wasn't clear at all and almost nobody owned everything, so there were huge differences in interpretation from table to table. This continued to some extend until the time I stopped playing, which was in the earlier AD&D stage.

Yeah, to some extent that is true. Of course I was the one who was making some HQ-D&D comparisons earlier so it sort of suports my argument.

Early D&D was vague mostly because the writers didn't know what they were doing (they were trailblazing a new type of game). One reason why the old rules are so fragmented is because in most cases each section was literally tacked onto the rules bit by bit rather than as some unified system. In many ways AD&D killed a lot of creativity that was in the game. Gygax getting rid of the other creators didn't do much for creativity either.

How much power HQ gives to the players is also dependent on the GM. If a GM want's it can be very loose and freeform, if not it can be very restricted.

On, and if I were the 17 going up against the 17W3, I woundlt ask for an extended contest. It sort of kills my chances of success! I got a 1 in 400 chance of getting a 1vs 20 bumpled with a hero point for a win. If I go extended, evben If I used deparete bidding and threw everything I had into the bids, I'd have to to that trick multiple times, to win.

Why turn a 1 in 400 change to a 1 in 1 in 160,000? I contented being screwed over a 400 to 1 odds.

 

[Mark Mohrfield]

That was because Arduin was orginally written to be the Glorantha RPG. It was Greg's regection of Arduin that led eventually to RQ.

I am almost certain that this is incorrect. While some of the Dragon Pass characters were wrtten up in Arduin stats, Arduin was written for, well, Arduin.

I read interviews of Greg Stafford, and Steve Perrin that claim otherwise. Now it is possible that the fog of 30 years may have affected them, but there is evidence to support this thinking.

Can you sight any sources for this? I have never heard anyone claim that the Arduin system was the original Glorantha game. Indeed, what I've looked up inidicates that Arduin didn't even have a true system until 1980, well after RQ was published. Up until then, it was apparantly a hodge-podge of D&D modifications.

Both Steve and Greg have mentioned that RQ and GLoratha were not a good fit for each other. Both were innovative, but in differenrt ways

Stafford once said that RQ did a pretty good job of protraying Glorantha at the lower power levels, but broke down at the higher.

 

[Mark Mohrfield]

I'm giving up on argueing that HPs=/=APs. If you don't believe the statements of the rulebooks themselves, you sure as heck ain't going to believe me. I will say this however;

.If I even own a casino, I'm inviting you. Casinos thrive on people who believe just that. While it is mathematically possible, the net game effect is similat to saying that a 1st level fighter has a chance against a 10 level fighter. Mathematically yes, realistically, no.

If someone is overmatched in HQ, the bid really only determines how long it takes for them to be defeated. If you are using Spear 17 and the other guy has Greataxe 17W3 you could desparate bid you socks off. Barring some hHero Points and a series of "one in 400 chance" rolls, you are toaste.

There is so much wrong with this statement I don't even know where to begin. Look, I said that it was POSSIBLE. I did not make a statement as to how PROBABLE it was. Even then, this assumes that the character with the higher Ability level has more APs than the character with the lower ability, and this is not always the case. Your example also ignores the role of Hero Points in the game.

 

[atgxtg]

I'm giving up on argueing that HPs=/=APs. If you don't believe the statements of the rulebooks themselves, you sure as heck ain't going to believe me.

That is because if you read the rule books you will get more thanone fdefintion. HP were alos used to decibe parrying and dodging as well as actual damage.

Now according to HQ, a hero is wounded whener he fails a contest, and in extended constests that mean when he is defeated at his AP go below 1.

The problem with your argument is that since APs are vaguely defiend units used to resolve everything in HQ, then then it is impossible for them NOT to repent something. The second you dicde to make any sort of test or comparison, be it combat ability, weath, beatuty, or size of a fleet, it becomes a value expressed in APs.

I will say this however;

.If I even own a casino, I'm inviting you. Casinos thrive on people who believe just that. While it is mathematically possible, the net game effect is similat to saying that a 1st level fighter has a chance against a 10 level fighter. Mathematically yes, realistically, no.

If someone is overmatched in HQ, the bid really only determines how long it takes for them to be defeated. If you are using Spear 17 and the other guy has Greataxe 17W3 you could desparate bid you socks off. Barring some hHero Points and a series of "one in 400 chance" rolls, you are toaste.

There is so much wrong with this statement I don't even know where to begin. Look, I said that it was POSSIBLE. I did not make a statement as to how PROBABLE it was. Even then, this assumes that the character with the higher Ability level has more APs than the character with the lower ability, and this is not always the case. Your example also ignores the role of Hero Points in the game.

How about beginng with your math.

For starters, I did factor in the possible use of Hero Points, otherwise the 17 has no chance of winning, as the 17W3 will have 3 bumps turining a fumble into a critical. The Hero Point is what gives the 17 the 1 in 400 chance of winning (rolling 1 vs a 20), and that is assuming that the 17W3 doesn't want to spend a HP.

That doesn't assume anything about who has more APs. Quite frankly, if the 17 doesn't roll a 1 AND spend a Hero Point, on every roll, it doesn't matter if he has 1, 10, 1000 or 1 million APs, he will loose. The APs just determine how long it will take him to loose.

Even in the absolute best case for the 17 guy, that is assuming that the oppoent switched abilities withle at low AP, the 17 is still going to have to roll a 1 and bumb with a hero point to have that 1 in 400 chance of winning a contest.

 

[atgxtg]

I am almost certain that this is incorrect. While some of the Dragon Pass characters were wrtten up in Arduin stats, Arduin was written for, well, Arduin.

I read interviews of Greg Stafford, and Steve Perrin that claim otherwise. Now it is possible that the fog of 30 years may have affected them, but there is evidence to support this thinking.

Can you sight any sources for this? I have never heard anyone claim that the Arduin system was the original Glorantha game. Indeed, what I've looked up inidicates that Arduin didn't even have a true system until 1980, well after RQ was published. Up until then, it was apparantly a hodge-podge of D&D modifications.

Maybe, it depends on if I can find the interviews again. Some of this was on RPGNET, and finding something there can be a bit of a bother. I'll do so searching.

 

[soltakss]

Now this is where things get funny and sort of points out something that I don't like about HQ. There is someone else on this board who run HQ who alomost never uses extended contrests, and says that they are not really needed.

That's me. I don't use Extended Contests very often. They just don't come up that often in play, in my experience. I just started a new group in HQ, so we'll see what happens this time. I've mentioned before that I basically let the player pick when something is important enough to warrant an extended contest. In the past, it's every 3-4 game sessions on average, and ironically are usually for side issues that are just fun to play through. Extended contests are great for Trollball and Shieldpush!

I don't like Extended Contests either. I generally stick to Simple Conetsts where possible - it's faster and easier to use.

 

[soltakss]

Good lord! Its just sunk in that it has been suggested that people have interpreted HQ in a way which allows for the direct use of "Cute Smile" against a "sword attack"!!!!!

Yes, that's right, you could. The rationale might be that the Swordsman swings at the young lady who smiles her Cute Smile, he then has second thoughts and pulls the blow or misses. Of course, he could augment with his Cruel, Merciless, Grim, Kill at All Costs or whatever skills he wants, but the basic premise is sound.

That's what makes HQ interesting as a game.

That would indeed be ridiculous!!! You'd have to be silly to interpret it that way

Yes, I probably am.

 

[burdock]

saltaks wrote

Yes, that's right, you could. The rationale might be that the Swordsman swings at the young lady who smiles her Cute Smile, he then has second thoughts and pulls the blow or misses.

The cute smile could be used but it would not be opposed against the sword ability.....it would be opposed to the Merciless trait.......but would still have an effect on the subsequent use/unuse of the sword

 

[RMS]

saltaks wrote

Yes, that's right, you could. The rationale might be that the Swordsman swings at the young lady who smiles her Cute Smile, he then has second thoughts and pulls the blow or misses.

The cute smile could be used but it would not be opposed against the sword ability.....it would be opposed to the Merciless trait.......but would still have an effect on the subsequent use/unuse of the sword

I'll just second this. That's how I'd run it. Once the sword is pulled, the Cute Smile is worthless, but I'd certainly allow Cute Smile vs. Merciless (or similar) to keep the sword from ever being pulled.

This does bring up an issue with HQ that I can understand for some people. In the above case a PC's choice of actions could be determined by die rolls. Some players would roll with the inability to attack to the girl and roleplay it to the hilt. Others would be upset that they couldn't roleplay their character as they envisioned the character. This would definitely come down to GM-player contract on how to handle the situation. (A case could be made that the first type of player is a better match for HQ, as written, but it could certainly be run with the second play-style as long as everyone is on the same page.)

 

[atgxtg]

What about using the cute smile to impress the serving wench standing behind the brute with the sword to get her to knock him off the back of the head (and knock him out) with a alemug?

Or would this be interrupting an extended contest with a simple one, or just going for an augment?

 

[Rurik]

What about using the cute smile to impress the serving wenchl standing behind the brute with the sword to get her to knock him off the back of the head (and knock him out) with a alemug?

Or would this be interrupting an extended contest with a simple one, or just going for an augment?

Have you been playing Pirates?

 

[atgxtg]

What about using the cute smile to impress the serving wenchl standing behind the brute with the sword to get her to knock him off the back of the head (and knock him out) with a alemug?

Or would this be interrupting an extended contest with a simple one, or just going for an augment?

Have you been playing Pirates?

Sid Meirer's Pirates? Hell yeah! I used to play that on an Atari.

I also like several swashbuclking RPGs, and have been working on notes for a MRQ Swashbucklkers campaign.

But, it is still a valid quation about HQ. And besides, it think the wench helping you out because she like you smile makes more sense that the other guy being defeating by your "winning" smile. Unless it's for the same reason. :shock:

 

[Rurik]

Sid Meirer's Pirates? Hell yeah! I used to play that on an Atari.

I also like several swashbuclking RPGs, and have been working on notes for a MRQ Swashbucklkers campaign.

But, it is still a valid quation about HQ. And besides, it think the wench helping you out because she like you smile makes more sense that the other guy being defeating by your "winning" smile. Unless it's for the same reason. :shock:

Commodore 64 myself. I still have the old IBM version (have to boot to the floppy to play - to bad neither of my systems has a floppy drive).

Not to blatently threadjack, but did they nerf the Treasure Fleet or what in the nre version?

 

[atgxtg]

Commodore 64 myself. I still have the old IBM version (have to boot to the floppy to play - to bad neither of my systems has a floppy drive).

Not to blatently threadjack, but did they nerf the Treasure Fleet or what in the nre version?

Arrr, we've pirated a thread!

I just couldn't get the dancing stuff down. I've heard that they patched that . I'm running on a U-70, and the processor is a little sloooww for Pirages!
I used to have a Pirates Gold! on disc, but can't find it.

 

[RMS]

Pirates: one of the best computer games I've ever played. I got the new one last year and had a blast for a while with it. I got the dancing part down, but it was definitely the hardest part of the game for me. However, what finally frustrated me into giving up was trying to an onland clue that was between X&Y, but I couldn't locate it for anything. After that one long play, I haven't returned to the game.

The old one, I play over-and-over in the early 90s.

 

[Rurik]

Pirates: one of the best computer games I've ever played. I got the new one last year and had a blast for a while with it. I got the dancing part down, but it was definitely the hardest part of the game for me. However, what finally frustrated me into giving up was trying to an onland clue that was between X&Y, but I couldn't locate it for anything. After that one long play, I haven't returned to the game.

The old one, I play over-and-over in the early 90s.

Did you get the 1.2 patch? fixes some unreachable locations like that.

The new one for me has had the staying power of the old one. I don't play lots but you can keep going back time and time again when you have nothing better to do and it is just as much fun. I played the original occasionally right up until I said goodbye to floppy drives.

 

[mthomason]

Ah, twin floppy drive PC with no hard drive, such memories.

Hours and hours of Bards Tale (the original, real one, not that pile of excrement they released under the same name)

 

[RMS]

What about using the cute smile to impress the serving wench standing behind the brute with the sword to get her to knock him off the back of the head (and knock him out) with a alemug?

Or would this be interrupting an extended contest with a simple one, or just going for an augment?

Back on topic:

I don't use extended contests! Seriously, I think that would be reasonable in the right game, though maybe you need the serving wench to just augment the Cute Smile ability with the serving wench's Hit Guy Over Head with Mug ability (plus situation bonus for him not seeing her).

However, I run my HQ fairly gritty still, so in my take it wouldn't really do much good to hit an armored guy over the head with a mug. In my game, if you're to the point of having weapons drawn, it's too late to use an ability like Cute Smile or Persuasive Talk or similar. Once the weapons are out, it comes down to physical (or magical) abilities.

 

[atgxtg]

Pirates: one of the best computer games I've ever played. I got the new one last year and had a blast for a while with it. I got the dancing part down, but it was definitely the hardest part of the game for me. However, what finally frustrated me into giving up was trying to an onland clue that was between X&Y, but I couldn't locate it for anything. After that one long play, I haven't returned to the game.

The old one, I play over-and-over in the early 90s.

Arrhh, look's like we've shanghaied another crewmember!

Back to the topic-How would you handle the "winning" smile/serving wench idea I placed above? It does seem sortof difficult to handle in HQ terms.

Buccaneer-the price of corn on the cob.