pak'ma'ra Fleet - Opinions Wanted!
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
Shadow Queen
Mongoose
how about a carrier and some rear mounted missles?
Hey all...
Notes on the Pak...
Played three and a fraction games with them so far...observed one other. The observed one and one other were mixed fleets (though admittedly my opponent was way out of practice).
Main gun is tough...but not gross against most fleets. Hull 6 or any active defense makes the initial shot not so bad, with or without scout support. Hull 5 and no active defense means you just die, horribly... Am I satisfied with it, kinda...it's a bit too rock paper scissors for my tastes.
Secondaries...quite fond of the bargain basement bolters. The number of AD is not excessive for most of the ships, the War ship being perhaps the odd fellow out. The straight AP is present in enough numbers to be interesting so a good job there as well.
Anti-fighter guns round out the suite nicely.
Ships...
Plasmahawk is a very nice patrol hull and such an absurdly good enhancement of the Sunhawk I am insulted as a drazi player. But at least I have a use for my models.
The warbird conversion is very nice, but need a bit more range on the boresight. As is the ship often cannot find a target in the turn after it's torpedo barrage due to the speed plus weapon range falling so far short of the torpedo range.
Ikorta variant - very nice...best single skirmish choice, though squadrons of the warbird have a place.
Supermerchant....in the will you marry me now range for happiness
Halik variant ... so far can't really think of a good use for this one...Supermerchant is too much better it needs something...
That darn big war bucket...haven't gotten to try in the field...but wow...what big teeth you have....
As for the fighter...I like...especially now that we know not crippled by the crew effect. Tough in a different way from other fighters, with a unique weapon package. Still dies like flies...but al least stings like bee.
Combined fleet with league I do not see as an issue any more that other races. The access to a great scout is only an issue in how tough that scout is to kill with stealth 5+...and that's an issue in any fleet. The access to fleet carrier and better dogfighters, again just not a huge issue from what I have seen. I think it's a sound addition, and helps the league really match up against the bigger boys...even if it always goes last.
Best of all I don't feel bad fielding my Abbai anymore...=)
Ripple
Notes on the Pak...
Played three and a fraction games with them so far...observed one other. The observed one and one other were mixed fleets (though admittedly my opponent was way out of practice).
Main gun is tough...but not gross against most fleets. Hull 6 or any active defense makes the initial shot not so bad, with or without scout support. Hull 5 and no active defense means you just die, horribly... Am I satisfied with it, kinda...it's a bit too rock paper scissors for my tastes.
Secondaries...quite fond of the bargain basement bolters. The number of AD is not excessive for most of the ships, the War ship being perhaps the odd fellow out. The straight AP is present in enough numbers to be interesting so a good job there as well.
Anti-fighter guns round out the suite nicely.
Ships...
Plasmahawk is a very nice patrol hull and such an absurdly good enhancement of the Sunhawk I am insulted as a drazi player. But at least I have a use for my models.
The warbird conversion is very nice, but need a bit more range on the boresight. As is the ship often cannot find a target in the turn after it's torpedo barrage due to the speed plus weapon range falling so far short of the torpedo range.
Ikorta variant - very nice...best single skirmish choice, though squadrons of the warbird have a place.
Supermerchant....in the will you marry me now range for happiness
Halik variant ... so far can't really think of a good use for this one...Supermerchant is too much better it needs something...
That darn big war bucket...haven't gotten to try in the field...but wow...what big teeth you have....
As for the fighter...I like...especially now that we know not crippled by the crew effect. Tough in a different way from other fighters, with a unique weapon package. Still dies like flies...but al least stings like bee.
Combined fleet with league I do not see as an issue any more that other races. The access to a great scout is only an issue in how tough that scout is to kill with stealth 5+...and that's an issue in any fleet. The access to fleet carrier and better dogfighters, again just not a huge issue from what I have seen. I think it's a sound addition, and helps the league really match up against the bigger boys...even if it always goes last.
Best of all I don't feel bad fielding my Abbai anymore...=)
Ripple
Having played several games with a Pak’ma’ra only fleet & I think they work really well as they are.
While I can see how 4 flights of profatis might be scarier when used with a league fleet esp with fleet carrier when used just with the Pak’ma’ra they work out about right and make the fleet really different. Despite packing a decent punch and having a good hull they are still fragile.
The low dogfight, initiative and speed means that any enemy fighter should be able to engage and mess them up quite quickly. I've even lost quite a few profatis to abbai fighters which are about as bad as it gets.
Their low dodge also means that an enemy with a spare weapon arc can gun them down quite quickly too and their low move means that it can be hard to get them out of arcs especially if you want to field them in the sort of numbers where they can make a difference. Despite their firepower I'd still prefer a thunderbolt which has good dogfight, hull, dodge speed and firepower.
While the torpedoes and heavy plasma cannons are great the lack of Super AP does limit their effects on hull 6 ships (although they are pretty frightening against anything with a lower hull esp if it has no interceptors).
The redundancy system is a bit more book keeping and I'd be just as happy with giving them additional hits& crew, but it’s a nice enough mechanism.
The only change I would like is a battle ship, even just a degraded version of the war choice would be really nice and would fill in an important gap in the fleet list
I like the low troops although perhaps having 2 or 3 on the War class as it is a dedicated military ship wouldn't be out of place).
I think they work pretty well and play a nicely diferent feel to other fleets
While I can see how 4 flights of profatis might be scarier when used with a league fleet esp with fleet carrier when used just with the Pak’ma’ra they work out about right and make the fleet really different. Despite packing a decent punch and having a good hull they are still fragile.
The low dogfight, initiative and speed means that any enemy fighter should be able to engage and mess them up quite quickly. I've even lost quite a few profatis to abbai fighters which are about as bad as it gets.
Their low dodge also means that an enemy with a spare weapon arc can gun them down quite quickly too and their low move means that it can be hard to get them out of arcs especially if you want to field them in the sort of numbers where they can make a difference. Despite their firepower I'd still prefer a thunderbolt which has good dogfight, hull, dodge speed and firepower.
While the torpedoes and heavy plasma cannons are great the lack of Super AP does limit their effects on hull 6 ships (although they are pretty frightening against anything with a lower hull esp if it has no interceptors).
The redundancy system is a bit more book keeping and I'd be just as happy with giving them additional hits& crew, but it’s a nice enough mechanism.
The only change I would like is a battle ship, even just a degraded version of the war choice would be really nice and would fill in an important gap in the fleet list
I like the low troops although perhaps having 2 or 3 on the War class as it is a dedicated military ship wouldn't be out of place).
I think they work pretty well and play a nicely diferent feel to other fleets
prelude_to_war
Mongoose
It's hinted in the fluff that the Pak will get the Hurr Gunship...does this exist as a mini? Google failed to come up with images of any kind...
What makes a Pak Fleet damn good is the combined redundancy and close blast doors special action. the first turn or so, they are only gonna get their Plasma Torps in range and might as well close the doors and make it harder to hurt. the +5 which also keep the crew and hull together makes for a ship that can potentially stand up to a round of concentrated fire. The next turn comes and most of the faster Pak Ships will probably be in the secondary weapons range and still close the blast doors and can keep their ships running through the hail of fire.
I forgot who said it but against an interceptor heavy fleet or even ships with 1 or 2 interceptors, the Pak will have slight problems and mostly Armor 6 fleets their weapons will not be as effective. In a game against 3rd age earth, the Pak fleet managed to slag 2 Hyperions and a Nova after several turns of concentrated fire and the patrol boats do good at overloading the interceptors of those earth ships.
The anti-fighter defenses of the Pak makes up for their lack-luster fighter screen.
Overall: Pak can take the hits and are dangerous to anything with an armor value of 5 or less.
I forgot who said it but against an interceptor heavy fleet or even ships with 1 or 2 interceptors, the Pak will have slight problems and mostly Armor 6 fleets their weapons will not be as effective. In a game against 3rd age earth, the Pak fleet managed to slag 2 Hyperions and a Nova after several turns of concentrated fire and the patrol boats do good at overloading the interceptors of those earth ships.
The anti-fighter defenses of the Pak makes up for their lack-luster fighter screen.
Overall: Pak can take the hits and are dangerous to anything with an armor value of 5 or less.
CZuschlag
Mongoose
No, either the rules has a typo or the CBD enhances the Crew save as well. Part and parcel of my concern with the top-end Pak ships, mostly Sunhawk and P'shul'shi, especially in concert with capale to advantaged scouts. I have relatively little expereince to back some elements of this analysis up, however.
The Sunhawk in particular reminds me of the Hermes (q.v.).
The Sunhawk in particular reminds me of the Hermes (q.v.).
Your right!
We did that wrong then, not that it mattered much, almost all my ships died to damage. One of the most striking aspects of the games was that Pak rarely blew up despite being hit by Double and Triple damage weapons.
I do think in one game that might have kept a Supermerchant alive another turn, no torps but still a formidable ship in the furball anyway.
I would not worry so much about the Plasmahawk right now, it doesn't have the flight and near immunity to secondaries. IE crits still happen to as opposed to intercepted shots which negate hits. Nor is it quite fast enough to jump from one side of a secondary envelope to the other with an all power. IE try to catch a Hermes with a Bimith, it can leap from out of range in front of you to out of range behind you in one APtE. Plus the 25 range makes them more vulnerable to being hit by main weapons that the 30.
It does have a stronger secondary weapon...but its a boresight which means it is drawing into the fighter to use it, and is of no use in the defensive role against say a wing or two of fighters moving down the line taking out the 'hawks. (Yes I know they have anti-fighter, it's 3 AD no other traits...two wings of T-bolts will remove any number of 'hawks or at least keep them fleeing and out of the fight.)
All that said they do change the League dynamic and can potentially make some really nasty fleets and I do worry about the balance issue a bit.
Ripple
We did that wrong then, not that it mattered much, almost all my ships died to damage. One of the most striking aspects of the games was that Pak rarely blew up despite being hit by Double and Triple damage weapons.
I do think in one game that might have kept a Supermerchant alive another turn, no torps but still a formidable ship in the furball anyway.
I would not worry so much about the Plasmahawk right now, it doesn't have the flight and near immunity to secondaries. IE crits still happen to as opposed to intercepted shots which negate hits. Nor is it quite fast enough to jump from one side of a secondary envelope to the other with an all power. IE try to catch a Hermes with a Bimith, it can leap from out of range in front of you to out of range behind you in one APtE. Plus the 25 range makes them more vulnerable to being hit by main weapons that the 30.
It does have a stronger secondary weapon...but its a boresight which means it is drawing into the fighter to use it, and is of no use in the defensive role against say a wing or two of fighters moving down the line taking out the 'hawks. (Yes I know they have anti-fighter, it's 3 AD no other traits...two wings of T-bolts will remove any number of 'hawks or at least keep them fleeing and out of the fight.)
All that said they do change the League dynamic and can potentially make some really nasty fleets and I do worry about the balance issue a bit.
Ripple
I'm really interested in testing the pak in my campaign 
So the wording of the rule is considered correct : closed doors prevent
damage AND crew loss on a 5+ ?
scary no ? But I feel I will need it. (might encounter some centauri and ... minbari )
The pak rule says you gain a free refit roll, is it ONE free refit before the campaign starts or is it A free refit per turn ?
The -1 penalty applies to the CQS of "ships", does it include fighters ?
(meaning that we know the fighter CQS is independant of its mother CQS sinc Arm. so the real question is : "in this rule is the word "ship" a generic way of saying each token/mini or does it mean everything but fighters")
Other Duty 3 :
does "effects" mean you completly negate the crit or that you just don't apply the -X speed for exemple but still take the damage&crew loss ?
(maybe just a "translation" difficulty, sorry)
So the wording of the rule is considered correct : closed doors prevent
damage AND crew loss on a 5+ ?
scary no ? But I feel I will need it. (might encounter some centauri and ... minbari )
The pak rule says you gain a free refit roll, is it ONE free refit before the campaign starts or is it A free refit per turn ?
The -1 penalty applies to the CQS of "ships", does it include fighters ?
(meaning that we know the fighter CQS is independant of its mother CQS sinc Arm. so the real question is : "in this rule is the word "ship" a generic way of saying each token/mini or does it mean everything but fighters")
Other Duty 3 :
does "effects" mean you completly negate the crit or that you just don't apply the -X speed for exemple but still take the damage&crew loss ?
(maybe just a "translation" difficulty, sorry)
I would say so, yes. It says that when CBD! is used, "this roll" is increased to 5 or more... "this roll" referring to the 6+ saving throws against damage and crew.Na-Po said:
No it does not. There is a thread in Rulesmastes clarifying this.Na-Po said:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25440
The wording isn't totally clear, but I'd say it is just the effect part such as -X speed. Damage is still dealt as normal. But like I said its a bit vague, that would just be my personal interpretation.Na-Po said:
prelude_to_war
Mongoose
Me too...The lack of a scout is a concern but the 'Scavenger' and 'Simple Traders' rules are very interesting. More economic advantages like the Brakiri versus brute force. Looks like they'll need that advantage as no SAP (not even available as a refit) could really hurt.Na-Po said:I'm really interested in testing the pak in my campaign
I read it as one free refit before the campaign starts.Na-Po said:
