Not Another White Star Thread (TM)

[Zeru]

In my experience the White star with its current range gets slaughtered by those counters, so logically that slaughter will only be more one sided by cutting the range of its primary weapon down so much.

The White Star is only as powerful as it is when used to snipe against shorter range ships. Increasing the number of weapon systems it puts itself in range of is a big trade-off for a ship that shatters when put up against the right ship.

By forcing it to get closer to the enemy, you force it to enter into far more dangerous ranges against the average enemy ship.

The White Star may be considered OP when sniping, but the shorter the range gets, the more balanced it gets, unless it goes up against any race with a growing number of E-mine capable ships or Accurate weapons.

Edit: to Burger

I think the only real problem with that is that it still allows the White Star to "snipe" outside of peoples ranges. It isn't necissarly the damage that people complain about, as much as its ability to damage outside of people's ranges to damage it back.

 

[H]

to obvious?

you know and I know, the general Mongoose philosophy is to go way OTT when re-balancing something lol

 

[AdrianH]

I honestly think that people want its range cut down any lower aren't considering the rather large disadvantage the White Star will suffer when going against races that DO have access to viable counters, anything with an E-mine (Gaim/Narn) or Accurate (Shadows/Drakh) tear them out of space as it is, if their range is cut they would suffer even more against the races the ISA is general is weak against.

I can't speak for the other races, but the long range beam doesn't help the White Star much against the Shadow Scout because the Scout is going to close in quickly anyway. Besides, going against a Scout, the White Star either needs the combination of pulsars and laser, or a lucky expansion from the 2D beam, if it's going to do more than put a dent in the shield. Against a larger Shadow ship, the White Star will still want to get in close, round the back or side, and fire with everything it's got.

 

[Kosh127]

The WS is powerful but there are several fleets in the game that take down the ship very quickly. Drop the range to 15 and keep the new special rule BUT only on special orders. at 15 inches its in range of most of the guns in most fleets. Yes with some exceptions. However, if you are playing WS than pick your fleet to what you are going to fight. If your in a tournament then take the most balanced fleet you can as they will to. The ship is good but if you listen to most people that don't play it they will cry on that it is to powerful. If you play the ISA most people think that a minor tweak is needed, not an ax to the profile. and yes taking the PRIMARY gun to 8 in on a RAID ship is just axing the ship not fixing the problem. MGP catters to people that cry the most and the loudest. The silent majority get the short end of the stick. (hmm takes me to all people in public office) I digress. The ship should have a tweak but its give and take. Don't turn my ISA into the new Gaim.




P.S. I never never won a game against the old Gaim, in fact I never destroyed a ship. In the new rules I have never lost. I know that MGP had to fix them but I hope (and being and ISA player should make you think) that they give a little back.

 

[Foxmeister]

Drop the range to 15 and keep the new special rule BUT only on special orders. at 15 inches its in range of most of the guns in most fleets. Yes with some exceptions.

This proposal makes absolutely no difference at all to virtually everyone except the Vree, so it would be utterly pointless. The issue is that the WS can position itself on a weak arc so easily (i.e. out of primaries arc), that it can't be hit by the secondaries of most races and can then use its superior manoeuverability to stay there.

I'd be more than happy for the ranges on the beam and the pulsars to switched over, so that an ISA player (and I'm in that camp myself!) can either use it long range with the pulsars, or go in close with the beams. It wouldn't help the Abbai or the Narn, but it would at least make the ship behave more like the show.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Ripple]

I'd love to know what 'most weapons in most fleets' is supposed to mean, as it clearly isn't MOST weapons, that would be closer to 10. Most fleets we would have to discuss after we decide what most weapons is.

Right now the Whitestar played to its strengths shouldn't lose to anyone who doesn't have a defense bypassing weapon. The fact that playing to its strengths looks nothing like the tactics we see in the show is annoying. (this is btw, the same argument we see with the G'Quan and the earlier edition Centauri...)

The spread of the E-mine trait has hampered game development, as it encourages the rock paper scissors feel of the game. That is the single biggest disappointment I hear about the game, that a player never had a chance from the moment he pulled his ships out, besides shear luck on beam dice/crits.

That may not always be true but it does feel that way to a lot of newer players I try to introduce the game to, and is common in the large field of former players our area has.

Ripple

 

[Foxmeister]

The ship should have a tweak but its give and take.

Did the G'Vrahn gain anything when stuff was taken from it? No.

If an overpowered ship requires a nerf, then that nerf should take the most appropriate form. In some cases this may mean both "give" and "take", but in others it might just be "take".

I keep hearing some people saying that if the WS is forced to go into knife fight range it should be tougher! This is absurd! When you factor in AA and Dodge very simplistically, the WS has "effective" HPs of 40. Yes, I know that accurate weapons ignore Dodge, but then again the vast majority of weapons are not Accurate and a dodged hit is one that *cannot* cause a crit so this is more than a wash in my opinion in favour of Dodge over Accurate.

The effectively means that a WS already tougher than a Var'Nic which doesn't have the plethora of advantages that the WS has, and the Var'Nic is a good Raid level ship!

Regards,

Dave

 

[katadder]

the WS has nowhere near the equivalent of 40 damage as AA does not double your damage especially when being nibbled to death by ducks (or fighters getting one hit each).

but that doesnt mean I would want it to get tougher. its fine as is for defenses, just needs the range being brought down to 10 or I also wouldnt mind the pulsar/beam range swap

 

[Foxmeister]

the WS has nowhere near the equivalent of 40 damage as AA does not double your damage especially when being nibbled to death by ducks (or fighters getting one hit each).

And the same can be said in reverse for single hits from TD weapons. I seem to recall someone else coming up with a formula where 1 HP with AA was on average worth slighly more than 2 regular HPs. However, this is a different argument.

Even if it were worth 1.5 (on average), it will still give it an effective toughness of 30 against non-accurate weapons which is the same HPs as a Var'Nic. The point is, in the general case, the WS doesn't need a toughness boost.

Regards,

Dave

 

[katadder]

yeah but theres alot more fighters than TD weapons and as I said I wouldnt want it get tougher.
on having same damage as a var'nic - the var'nic has hull 6, torps and rear guns but the WS obviously has the speed/turns advantage.

 

[Kosh127]

Ripple wrote. I would like to know what weopen he is talking about. Ok to name a few all from raid ships or less.
Fusion cannon
rail gun
H Bolter
H laser cannon
medium laser cannon
missile rack
anitship misslies
matter cannon
light ballistic torpedoes
battle laser
ballistic torpedo
laser cannon
combat laser
H combat laser
Grav cannon
solar cannon
particle cannon
photon bomb
e-mine
pulsar mine
ion torpedo
H plasma cannon
M laser cannon
H laser cannon
plasma torpedo
antimatter cannon
atimatter torpedo
discharge gun
These guns may not be in all 4 arch but they don't need to. you are saying that on a one on one the WS will get into a place that it cannont be shot in return. Ya its terrible that a person that is able to get his ships in the right spot at the right time. well I have to tell you that if you lose Priority and are outnumbered by the WS fleet AND you cannot get any special orders to come about then, the WS player should be rewarded with a shot. There are several ships that fall into the as good as a WS slot. If you are unable to build a fleet and then move it to fight a ISA player and that same ISA player plays his fleet right then he get some good shots. Your argument that a WS has 40hull is flawed. You are assuming that you get all your traits after your cripled or that you make 50% of your dodges. What happens it you get a crit on your first shot and you loss dodge, or AA, or self repair. Yes I do know the odds of it happeing but it has happened and to me alot. Ya that suck for me and you shouldn't way that to heavy but don't overlook traits that can be lost.

 

[H]

wow, amazingly blinkered and a bit off the point as well.

tell you what, try playing the Whitestars against nothing but Light raiders or shadow scouts, or heck even Liatis, bloody annoying you'll find it, thats how almost every fleet feels about the multilayered defence closed blastdoors sniping cheesestar of doom.

 

[Kosh127]

I have plated against some of those fleet and won and lost. Its up the the fleet commander ie the player to take a good fleet comp and use there ships to there best effect. Just about fleet and bet any fleet. I have never played close blast doors on the fleet the way some people do. Easy fix. DON"T play people that try and break the rules and make YOU not have fun.

 

[H]

the problem being just because YOU don't play that way, doesn't mean others don't. the only times I see ISA beaten is with Drakh and Shadows. our ISA player doesn't play them at all anymore, as he hates how easily he wins.

it's all good and well saying take a fleet to fight them, but in a tourney. . . well a fleet that can fight ISA is usually toast against other fleets

 

[Kosh127]

at the 2 tourn, That I ran there were 14 people and 2 ISA player if I believed all thats said then did they both lose in both tour? I played at Mavoncon and won but there were 2 other ISA and one did very poor the other got 5. So i just don't see were they are unbeatable or to over the top. Ya cut the beam to 15 and place the fireing special rule for any special orders. Make sence to me.

 

[H]

mm, I never saw the G'Vrahn do anything amazing bar once, with 22 hits of it's beam, that must mean it wasn't broken, man i should have tried that argument. Also never seen my friends Abbai loose, yet people keep saying they are weak.

 

[Kosh127]

mmm take a look at B5 the game is broken. I just don't cry about one ship in one fleet and not worry about the whole thing. Most fleets have there golden goose and with the Gaim down and out NO fleet is unbeatable.

 

[katadder]

yeah abbai are really weak, boost my juyaca and other ships

WSs can be tough but they can also be very fragile. for me they are fragile as I always fail dodges but that doesnt mean I dont agree they need some sort of nerf.

my fav nerf is the knifefight one. followed by the swapping of pulsar and beam ranges.

 

[David Anla Shok']

If people are unsatisfied with how the White Star currently is (I'm not) I believe they should cut its beam range down to 10, equal with its secondary guns, and pump its toughness up.

I honestly think that people want its range cut down any lower aren't considering the rather large disadvantage the White Star will suffer when going against races that DO have access to viable counters, anything with an E-mine (Gaim/Narn) or Accurate (Shadows/Drakh) tear them out of space as it is, if their range is cut they would suffer even more against the races the ISA is general is weak against.

Pumping up their toughness would be a fair comprimise for shortening their range down 45% while keeping their manuverability, that way they can enter "knife-fight" range even with the races that have direct counters to the White Star itself.

The White Stars get a buff against E-mines/Accurate, and a nerf against everything else. Sounds good to me.

Although I don't agree that the WS is such a "problem", I would concur with the validity of your option here....

 

[H]

mmm take a look at B5 the game is broken. I just don't cry about one ship in one fleet and not worry about the whole thing. Most fleets have there golden goose and with the Gaim down and out NO fleet is unbeatable.

on that Basis i can tell you every ship that i "think" needs a boost or a nerf, but given we are on the whitestar thread tm, then I'll leave them while we discuss the whitestar.

now I must say your argument that you don't use it like that is the same as me saying this sniper rifle won't kill anyone as I don't use it like that. hmmm, I suspect the local policeforce would take a dim view on that.
the point is people DO use it like that detracting from the way we see it used in the show (which admitedly isn't the be all and end all) and brinign on the requirements for a small nerf, no-one is saying make it one damage point with a hald AD weapon, the proposal for most is to force it to close a little which both gives anyones weak arc a small chance (with dodge and AA, my G'Quans still won't be wiping the floor with it really) and encourahges full use of weapons rather than CBD, in fact you make the ship more deadly, but at a greater risk.