Armies of the Fifth Frontier War, Impressions Not Errata

[Tforbes]

They don't need to , this is the Third Imperium not a democracy. The sector duke makes a lot of money from weapon supply.

I'm not sure I understand this. Are you saying that arms manufacturers aren't hired by the Imperium and instead the army / navy builds everything in house? There are quite a few adventures and books that deal with different shipyards competing for naval contracts.

which is why energy weapons are preferred, even gauss weapons have a less limited ammunition supply problem.

And if the energy weapon breaks? How do you replace it? Obviously there is an expected supply of replacement parts but they cant be unlimited AND always accessible everywhere. The Imperium isn't perfect.

Trillions, I would say it is worth it.

it is my opinion that a low TL world would be more appreciative (and willing to offer more kickbacks) to receive a Trillion credits than a high TL world (just because they could do more with it compared to their average revenue.)

It is a change to canon that makes little sense in setting...

yes. if you're coming at this with the understanding that the Imperium has the industrial capacity to equip every soldier, everywhere, with TL 15 without any appreciable risk or downside, then I completely agree this wouldn't make sense. I personally don't ascribe to that assumption but if that ability is stated explicitly somewhere in a book I haven't read, then that's fine.

And then they get roflstomped by the Zhodani... again

Until the better equipped reinforcements arrive who can respond with full force as needed rather than needing to be spread out across the line.

And are wiped out thanks to the TL superiority of the sensors, not to mention the psionics...

Dramatic assault against all odds? Players coming up with interesting and creative workarounds?

And it only takes them four months to get there, commit high treason in time of war, and four months to get back.

or pick somewhere closer to where the fighting is. The principle was that the "good stuff" was being saved instead of used. (like when I keep every elixir in my inventory "just incase" I need it later)

Or side with him...

either way. it'd be an interesting story opportunity.

No, you wouldn't have the junk stockpiled. The Imperium has been equipping its armed forces to TL15 standards for over a century. It is a canonical fact that they are even fielding new generation TL15 equipment, as in TL15 replacement for earlier TL15.

It has TL15 stockpiled.

The hypothetical posited was what to do if the TL15 equipment ran out. "The TL 15 gear would never run out" isn't really engaging with the premise...

 

[Sigtrygg]

I'm not sure I understand this. Are you saying that arms manufacturers aren't hired by the Imperium and instead the army / navy builds everything in house? There are quite a few adventures and books that deal with different shipyards competing for naval contracts.

No, I am saying the megacorporations that gets paid out of Imperial taxation to make the military equipment have the nobility as shareholders, the nobility and the Emperor share the dividends. It doesn't matter which TL15 shipyard gets the "contract" - see how the Imperial beurocract continues to fleece the people of the Marches with their Children of the Marches scam - the nobility will get dividends regardless.

And if the energy weapon breaks? How do you replace it? Obviously there is an expected supply of replacement parts but they cant be unlimited AND always accessible everywhere. The Imperium isn't perfect.

No army wins a war without logistics. As to replacement parts, they use makers to manufacture spares in situ.

it is my opinion that a low TL world would be more appreciative (and willing to offer more kickbacks) to receive a Trillion credits than a high TL world (just because they could do more with it compared to their average revenue.)

Doesn't do you any good to equip a IN squadron with outdated ships, or Army regiments with outdated battlefield sensors, weapon systems etc...

The Imperium has faced off against the Zhodani in four frontier wars, there is no way they would equip the Regular Imperial Army with anything but the best equipment they can get. Besides you can always build a TL15 factory on a lower TL world... how else does TL10 Regina build TL15 warships for the IN?

yes. if you're coming at this with the understanding that the Imperium has the industrial capacity to equip every soldier, everywhere, with TL 15 without any appreciable risk or downside, then I completely agree this wouldn't make sense. I personally don't ascribe to that assumption but if that ability is stated explicitly somewhere in a book I haven't read, then that's fine.

The Imperium has more than enough high population TL15 worlds to equip its armed forces, as mentioned they can even build TL15 military factories on lesser TL worlds.

Until the better equipped reinforcements arrive who can respond with full force as needed rather than needing to be spread out across the line.

The Regular Army are the reinforcements...
the nature of jump drive requires the adoption of appropriate tactics, too many people just don't understand what a months long communication lag does to caommand and control, and logistics.

Dramatic assault against all odds? Players coming up with interesting and creative workarounds?

And they all die horribly.

or pick somewhere closer to where the fighting is. The principle was that the "good stuff" was being saved instead of used. (like when I keep every elixir in my inventory "just incase" I need it later)

Where is this equipment that is closer? How do you know it is still there since it is how many jumps away? How do you know the Zhodani are not already at that world.

How does the world you are deserting hold out until you get back with a cargo hold with enough weapons to equip a platoon...

either way. it'd be an interesting story opportunity.

It is. I agree. many people would enjoy running such adventures.
Not the sort of story I am interested in role playing though, especially gung ho unrealistic military operations.

For a full scale war I want rules to game the full scale war, not side adventures that have no impact on the war.

The hypothetical posited was what to do if the TL15 equipment ran out. "The TL 15 gear would never run out" isn't really engaging with the premise...

If it runs out you surrender... or die. That is the first rule of warfare after all...

 

[Perkanis83]

Well there is one easy way to "fix" the gear being wrong for the imperial army, the gear we have been given is for the under equipped poorly motivated weekend warrior militia units the actual army use TL 15 battledress and FGMPs and meson arty along side portable meson screens.

 

[Tforbes]

No, I am saying the megacorporations that gets paid out of Imperial taxation to make the military equipment have the nobility as shareholders, the nobility and the Emperor share the dividends. It doesn't matter which TL15 shipyard gets the "contract" - see how the Imperial beurocract continues to fleece the people of the Marches with their Children of the Marches scam - the nobility will get dividends regardless.

it doesn't matter to "the nobility" as a whole but I'm sure an individual or 2 has found a way to increase their personal benefit by choosing option A over Option B.

No army wins a war without logistics. As to replacement parts, they use makers to manufacture spares in situ.

Fair enough. Cant get more local than the soldiers manufacturing spares themselves.

Doesn't do you any good to equip a IN squadron with outdated ships, or Army regiments with outdated battlefield sensors, weapon systems etc...

I wouldn't go as far as saying it doesn't do you "any good". If you just need a warm body to "show the flag" in a region youre not expecting there to be any fighting, then they don't need the newest and the best. But it certainly doesnt make sense if the Imperium has the capacity to make everything to the highest specs all the time.

The Imperium has faced off against the Zhodani in four frontier wars, there is no way they would equip the Regular Imperial Army with anything but the best equipment they can get.

Apologies if I missed it somewhere but do we know how many fighting men span the ensure Imperial Army?

Besides you can always build a TL15 factory on a lower TL world... how else does TL10 Regina build TL15 warships for the IN?

The Imperium has more than enough high population TL15 worlds to equip its armed forces, as mentioned they can even build TL15 military factories on lesser TL worlds.

I concede, if every Imperial world has the manufacturing capacity to equip their armed forces with TL15 equipment then there is no reason for any soldier to be issued outdated gear.

The Regular Army are the reinforcements...

Fair.

the nature of jump drive requires the adoption of appropriate tactics, too many people just don't understand what a months long communication lag does to caommand and control, and logistics.

I was trying to take that into account by minimizing how much a force would require resupply from elsewhere by assuming theyd have to rely on manufacturing less than jump distance from the battlefield. I hadnt considered every planet having a dedicated high TL factory for this explicit purpose.

Hard to wrap my brain around unlimited resources.

And they all die horribly.

that might put a damper on the mood around the gaming table...

Where is this equipment that is closer?

A more well defended planet in the system? a Military base a jump away? the Subsector capital? Wherever the referee wanted to put it.

How do you know it is still there since it is how many jumps away? How do you know the Zhodani are not already at that world.

The same way anybody does anything... they Jump based on the most up to date intelligence they have and hope their destination is still there in a week when they arrive.

How does the world you are deserting hold out until you get back with a cargo hold with enough weapons to equip a platoon...

with pluck, gumption and Guerilla tactics

It is. I agree. many people would enjoy running such adventures.
Not the sort of story I am interested in role playing though, especially gung ho unrealistic military operations.

Totally fair. reality is full of unrealistic events but thats personal preference for scale and frequency for your own games.

For a full scale war I want rules to game the full scale war, not side adventures that have no impact on the war.

gaming the full scale war may be a little outside the individual Traveller's scale but I get your meaning. Although, what you might call a insignificant side adventure MAY be a critical moment. The impact of which isnt fully understood until later. or its just a pointles bit of levity in a war game.

If it runs out you surrender... or die. That is the first rule of warfare after all...

Fair enough. A soldiers motivation is historically no greater than the amount of bullets they are currently carrying.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Apologies if I missed it somewhere but do we know how many fighting men span the ensure Imperial Army?

The Wiki says 2,500,000 Battalions of 500 men each. So, roughly 1.25 billion sophonts.

 

[Terry Mixon]

The Wiki says 2,500,000 Battalions of 500 men each. So, roughly 1.25 billion sophonts.

If they were evenly divided (which they are not) this would be 230 battalions per system. That's a lot. Too much, really. There would be a lot of asses just sitting around.

 

[MasterGwydion]

If they were evenly divided (which they are not) this would be 230 battalions per system. That's a lot. Too muhc, really. There would be a lot of asses just sitting around.

Those are for the combined military of the Third Imperium, not just the Imperial Army.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Those are for the combined military of the Third Imperium, not just the Imperial Army.

Ah. That makes more sense.

 

[Sigtrygg]

it doesn't matter to "the nobility" as a whole but I'm sure an individual or 2 has found a way to increase their personal benefit by choosing option A over Option B.

I agree, and they had better be very careful about it lest the mob nobility find out they are losing credits to an upstart...

another adventure possibility, a local mob boss noble want to know why their take dividend is down this month.
*edit I think I will use this adventure seed...

Fair enough. Cant get more local than the soldiers manufacturing spares themselves.

It is already a thing in the real world, soldiers are printing parts for drones, carriers are printing spares for aircraft...

I wouldn't go as far as saying it doesn't do you "any good". If you just need a warm body to "show the flag" in a region youre not expecting there to be any fighting, then they don't need the newest and the best. But it certainly doesnt make sense if the Imperium has the capacity to make everything to the highest specs all the time.

I think that is why there are still a few TL14 forces in the order of battle for the Imperials in the FFW game.

Apologies if I missed it somewhere but do we know how many fighting men span the ensure Imperial Army?

I can dig out the numbers from the FFW boardgame again, it will be edited in later.

I concede, if every Imperial world has the manufacturing capacity to equip their armed forces with TL15 equipment then there is no reason for any soldier to be issued outdated gear.

The jury is still out as to how many TL15 are built on lower TL worlds, but how is it any different to a G20 country building factories in lower TL countries... the TL15 Kinunirs being built on Regina, and the Imperium having TL15 warships built at worlds with less than TL15 is definitely canonical for now.

Fair.

I was trying to take that into account by minimizing how much a force would require resupply from elsewhere by assuming theyd have to rely on manufacturing less than jump distance from the battlefield. I hadnt considered every planet having a dedicated high TL factory for this explicit purpose.

If there is a TL15 IN base on a world then it has manufacturing capacity for spares and resupply, in point of fact that is one of the rules in the boardgame, repair of squadrons.

Hard to wrap my brain around unlimited resources.

Not unlimited, just a lot of them. Attrition or capture of worlds will have its affect on logistics.

that might put a damper on the mood around the gaming table...

Lol, this is Traveller. A TPK is the most likely outcome when real guns come out. But you never know, they could get lucky, they may get help from unexpected quarters, the important thing is for them to have fun playing it out.

A more well defended planet in the system? a Military base a jump away? the Subsector capital? Wherever the referee wanted to put it.

That would work, only a jump away makes it less likely for unpleasant surprises... but a Zho fleet arriving just as the PCs do in their merchant...

fun will be had.

The same way anybody does anything... they Jump based on the most up to date intelligence they have and hope their destination is still there in a week when they arrive.

Ahh trust in military intel... I would expect the PCs to plan for unforeseen events up to a point.

with pluck, gumption and Guerilla tactics

Noble traits, and yet more adventure opportunity.

Totally fair. reality is full of unrealistic events but thats personal preference for scale and frequency for your own games.

I think you have some great adventure seeds scattered through this discussion, I hope you get to use some of them.

gaming the full scale war may be a little outside the individual Traveller's scale but I get your meaning. Although, what you might call a insignificant side adventure MAY be a critical moment. The impact of which isnt fully understood until later. or its just a pointles bit of levity in a war game.

My very first gaming experience beyond Risk, Diplomacy and the like was when I bought the Airfix Napoleonic Wargame rules and painted Airfix plastic soldiers in red for British and Blue for French, I hand made cannon from spare wheels and sprue, horses were Lego blocks.

I never lost the miniature wargame bug.

Fair enough. A soldiers motivation is historically no greater than the amount of bullets they are currently carrying.

Despite the lethality of the weapon systems of the Frontier Wars I have always had the impression that certain rules are still observed. Offering surrender as an option, treating prisoners of war well. Avoid civilian casualties at all costs. No WMDs (both sides could glass each others planets easily enough).

 

[ottarrus]

Folks, these are not '100 year old tanks'... they're old tank designs, yes, but that's why the new TL15 Trepida was designed.
Every design goes through a lifespan... prototype, early TL, mature TL, and then into the prototype for the next TL. The equipment during the Solomani Rim War was prototype or early TL 14. The Invader grav tank is a mature TL 14. The prototypes for early TL15 were satisfactory and so the Imperium has placed orders to produce and field the early TL15 Trepida.
Remember, a Garand and an M-14 both rate as a Traveller 'Rifle'. A Sturmgewehr is an early TL Assault Rifle and an AK 47 is a mature TL assault rifle.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The TL15 Atlantic class heavy cruiser is now considered old and outdated and if being replaced by newer and better TL15 designs.

HG 2022:
"The Atlantic-class, however, is fast approaching obsolescence, and is not the equal of more modern vessels in the Imperium and neighboring regions. The slight disadvantage of 5-G acceleration is telling in otherwise equal engagements, and make the class inferior enough to affect strategic judgements concerning its commitment."

 

[Perkanis83]

Folks, these are not '100 year old tanks'... they're old tank designs, yes, but that's why the new TL15 Trepida was designed.
Every design goes through a lifespan... prototype, early TL, mature TL, and then into the prototype for the next TL. The equipment during the Solomani Rim War was prototype or early TL 14. The Invader grav tank is a mature TL 14. The prototypes for early TL15 were satisfactory and so the Imperium has placed orders to produce and field the early TL15 Trepida.
Remember, a Garand and an M-14 both rate as a Traveller 'Rifle'. A Sturmgewehr is an early TL Assault Rifle and an AK 47 is a mature TL assault rifle.

I mean they have had TL 15 for over 100 years at this point so they should have stocked up on enough TL 15 gear to equip all off the standing army with actual guns and armour for the TL they are on not what is essentially model T trucks with a hand cranked gun and smoothbore muskets.

 

[Terry Mixon]

The TL15 Atlantic class heavy cruiser is now considered old and outdated and if being replaced by newer and better TL15 designs.

HG 2022:
"The Atlantic-class, however, is fast approaching obsolescence, and is not the equal of more modern vessels in the Imperium and neighboring regions. The slight disadvantage of 5-G acceleration is telling in otherwise equal engagements, and make the class inferior enough to affect strategic judgements concerning its commitment."

Wasn’t the Atlantic TL14? I made an updated version called the Pacific that was TL15.