Armies of the Fifth Frontier War, Impressions Not Errata

[Varulv]

... the million dollar question: Does the marines carry FGMP-15, or has this iconic weapon been renamed in this book as well?

Anyone?

 

[Sigtrygg]

It has been renamed; just ignore it, I do.

 

[ottarrus]

The 2 TL advantage of Zhodani forces make the Imperial troops nothing but cannon fodder. The Imperium can afford to equip millions of troops to TL15, all it costs is the equivalent of one trillion credit fleet. 1,000,000 men x 1,000,000Cr = 1 fleet.

The economic model handwave is ridiculous. There is a reason no one builds Sherman tanks anymore even though they would cost a lot less using modern factories; no propeller driven interceptors, no battleships even.

Were they built to WW1 standards? No , they were state of the art, they were just a poor concept.

I wonder how many new build WW1 era destroyers will be built to defend against the Chinese Navy?

IMTU the Imperial Army is, to quote LBB:6 Scouts (sort of):
"The Imperial Army is a major service within the Imperium equal in stature to the Imperial Navy and the Imperial Interstellar Scout Service."

and in 1105 is equipped to TL15 standards as detailed in LBB:4 Mercenary, which means battledress and FGMP14 for every infantryman.

Sigg, you kill me sometimes [pun intended]
On the one hand you criticize the Imperium and it's traditions, on the other you state that it's the most advanced civilization in the OTU.

The economic model handwave isn't a 'handwave'. It's the reality of the procurement process. Even the most dictatorial and autocratic government has to bend to market forces... unless you want to end up like Brezhnev's Soviet Union or Mao's China... Taxes MUST be spent where they'll do the most good and 'the most good' is not always soldier equipment. Sometimes it's well paying technical jobs that increase a planet's GWP which allows that planet to continue paying taxes.
Here's how I see it IMTU... and as always YTUMV
- Most Army Lift Infantry Brigades are equipped with TL 12-13 Combat Armor and Gauss Rifles.
- Their mobility is provided by TL 14 IFVs, supported by TL 14 Invader MBTs. These are currently undergoing upgrade to TL 15 Astrins and Trepidas respectively.
- Every Army Corps has one elite battalion of TL 14 Battle Dress troops equipped with F/PGMPs. This is the corps commander's personal goon squad and 'doers of very violent things'. However, they are still Lift Infantry with IFV support.
- Jump Infantry divisions are entirely equipped to TL 14 BD standards, but as light infantry with fewer vehicles.
- Artillery is a mix of meson cannon and MLRS.
- ALL Imperial Army units are Lift... that is 'grav' mobile

 

[ottarrus]

Anyone?

It's been politically corrected since the CSC 2023.
If they REALLY wanted to get it right, it's a F/PGSG... Fusion or Plasma Gun Sophont Portable

 

[Terry Mixon]

It's been politically corrected since the CSC 2023.
If they REALLY wanted to get it right, it's a F/PGSG... Fusion or Plasma Gun Sophont Portable

Yep.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Sigg, you kill me sometimes [pun intended]
On the one hand you criticize the Imperium and it's traditions, on the other you state that it's the most advanced civilization in the OTU.

Where have I ever given the impression I consider the Imperium the most advanced civilisation? That would be the Hivers tentacles down.

The economic model handwave isn't a 'handwave'. It's the reality of the procurement process. Even the most dictatorial and autocratic government has to bend to market forces... unless you want to end up like Brezhnev's Soviet Union or Mao's China... Taxes MUST be spent where they'll do the most good and 'the most good' is not always soldier equipment. Sometimes it's well paying technical jobs that increase a planet's GWP which allows that planet to continue paying taxes.
Here's how I see it IMTU... and as always YTUMV

So give an example of the US Navy, Army or Air Force building equipment to WW1 standards.

- Most Army Lift Infantry Brigades are equipped with TL 12-13 Combat Armor and Gauss Rifles.

And will be annihilated by Zhodani TL14 meson ortillery, Zhodani TL14 combat armour, battledress, plasma gun equipped, more advanced sensors and electronics as well.

- Their mobility is provided by TL 14 IFVs, supported by TL 14 Invader MBTs. These are currently undergoing upgrade to TL 15 Astrins and Trepidas respectively.

An upgrade already achieved in the original canon sources. Mongoose has decided to reduce the TL of the Imperial Army to an average of less than the Regular Zhodani Army.

- Every Army Corps has one elite battalion of TL 14 Battle Dress troops equipped with F/PGMPs. This is the corps commander's personal goon squad and 'doers of very violent things'. However, they are still Lift Infantry with IFV support.

Parity with the Zhodani when they could be superior.

- Jump Infantry divisions are entirely equipped to TL 14 BD standards, but as light infantry with fewer vehicles.

Parity with the Zhodani when they could be superior.

- Artillery is a mix of meson cannon and MLRS.

This is another reason I am a bit meh about this book.
I does not mention at all how tactics must adapt to a meson battlefield, or even much beyond TL8 to be honest. Killwebs, sensor nets, comms, battle zones, they are not even future warfare concepts. You can find the Israelis, the Ukrainians, and the Russians all using these concepts right now. And the US is taking notes...

Orbital fire from TL11 meson bays is now a thing thanks to High Guard...

how do you adjust your tactics to cope, how do you adjust if there is a known TL imbalance, if the enemy electronics is better than yours you are at a severs disadvantage in today's battle space - Israel vs the state of the art Iranian (Russian) air defence system...

- ALL Imperial Army units are Lift... that is 'grav' mobile

so are the Zhodani, only their vehicles have better electronic warfare capabilities because they are higher TL...

 

[Condottiere]

FGVP

 

[Tforbes]

So give an example of the US Navy, Army or Air Force building equipment to WW1 standards.

Unless I'm mistaken, the argument is that the local forces are being supplied with what could be constructed "locally" both to decrease transportation costs and to (hopefully) spur the local manufacturing sectors.

Parity with the Zhodani when they could be superior.

If the Imperium got to choose the battlefields and not worry about the rest of their borders I'm sure they'd only station the best troops where they're needed. Instead, they have to have at least a lil something everywhere. Equipped with whatever a Credit-pinching committee determined was "good enough"

 

[MasterGwydion]

Unless I'm mistaken, the argument is that the local forces are being supplied with what could be constructed "locally" both to decrease transportation costs and to (hopefully) spur the local manufacturing sectors.

That would be like the US Government equipping the US Marines on Diego Garcia with only what the locals can produce locally. Somehow I don't see that as being a workable or winning strategy.

 

[Tforbes]

That would be like the US Government equipping the US Marines on Diego Garcia with only what the locals can produce locally. Somehow I don't see that as being a workable or winning strategy.

ok. Obviously transportation and logistics across 2025 Earth does not map directly to 1107 Charted Space.

I don't think soldiers on the frontier having to wait for every boot, bullet and (another piece of equipment that starts with B) to get shipped in from the core is a workable or winning strategy either.

I think the only reasonable plan is to determine a minimum viable standard for equipment and then allow bids from "local" manufacturers. Unfortunately that standard is often not selected by the people who would be USING the equipment so is 1000% going to be lower than it should be and certainly lower than it could be. Not to mention the possibility of bribes or incentives which are always considerations on how or why contracts get awarded to certain companies.

 

[Varulv]

It's been politically corrected since the CSC 2023.
If they REALLY wanted to get it right, it's a F/PGSG... Fusion or Plasma Gun Sophont Portable

Yep, annoyed me in 2023 aswell. I don't really care if someone wants to be politically correct or not, but this is imho  culture.

I'll just skip the physical book this time and settle for the pdf, crack it, and correct it.

 

[Terry Mixon]

There are plenty of high tech worlds in the Marches that could provide high tech weaponry. Even Vincennes, TL16, is right there.

 

[Condottiere]

It's quite possible your hi/tech factories can't keep up with demand.

Then, you start refurbishing and deploying hundred year old tanks from your inventories.

 

[Tforbes]

There are plenty of high tech worlds in the Marches that could provide high tech weaponry. Even Vincennes, TL16, is right there.

100% they could. But I would then ask:
1. Did they submit a competitive bid?
2. How much of a stockpile of ammunition and replacement parts did they supply to each system so, in the event of heavy or long term fighting, the high tech rifles don't turn into paperweights because theres no way to repair / replace them available.
3. is the contract valuable enough to Vincennes (or any high TL world) that the procurement committee would earn a "favour" from them for granting it to them?

Ultimately, we could critique every decision in this or any other book. Some decisions deserve it, some dont.

For me, I find it an interesting exercise to take this strange fact (Why did the Imperium equip its army with subpar equipment) and invent an explanation that could / would generate story.

For example, Imperial soldiers on the front line find their weapons are less than effective so they launch a mission to assault an enemy supply depot to claim better weapons. Or, Travellers are hired to steal Higher tech equipment from the Mora defence force (where every reservist is armed to the teeth with th best equipment available because it makes the Duchess feel safer) and bring it to the front lines where it will see real use. Maybe a lone survivor blames a bureaucrat for his squads death because they didn't have the equipment they needed and the Travellers have to stop him.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Unless I'm mistaken, the argument is that the local forces are being supplied with what could be constructed "locally" both to decrease transportation costs and to (hopefully) spur the local manufacturing sectors.

No, the Imperium is equippinq its Army to lower TL standards according to this book.

According to the FFW boardgame order of battle the vast majority of Imperial ground forced were Regular Imperial Army and were equipped to TL15 standard, with a small minority still with TL14 gear.

If the Imperium got to choose the battlefields and not worry about the rest of their borders I'm sure they'd only station the best troops where they're needed. Instead, they have to have at least a lil something everywhere. Equipped with whatever a Credit-pinching committee determined was "good enough"

The FFW details all the TL15 Regular Army units within a quadrant of the Spinward Marches, the reinforcements avaulable and the Colonial forces drafted from member worlds.

What this book could have been:
what does TL15 "ground" combat look like
how do the TL14 Zhodani adapt to fighting a higher TL adversary
how tactics change depending on the TL of the forces involved
how does a TL12 army fight a TL15 foe...
how ground warfare evolves from TL8 to TL15

Some rules to actually fight battles would have been a useful inclusion, but as it is so far we have a FFW where referees and players have next to no input in the outcome of events to date...

how many years of FFW books have we had now? How many more years to come? When are we getting
fleet combat rules (HG is useless)
ground combat rules
system invasion rules

I know Mongoose sees Traveller as an rpg, but it used to offer boardgames and wargames for a reason.

They have made wargames, boardgames, space combat games etc in the past. They have the talent - Victory at Sea is a great game, Call To Arms:...

A wargame could be built from the conglomerate unit rules in MegaTraveller - which Mongoose owns. It would require some re-qriting and adaption, but it would then give us rules to actually fight battles set during the FFW.

A Call to Arms or Victory at Sea could be the template a fleet combat game is built on - Mongoose owns Battle Rider, use that...

ok, I now feel better

 

[Sigtrygg]

It's quite possible your hi/tech factories can't keep up with demand.

I doubt that very much.

Then, you start refurbishing and deploying hundred year old tanks from your inventories.

No, you don't because you will lose the one advantage you have, technological superiority.

Besides that you have been stockpiling TL15 since just after the Solomani Rim war ended over a century ago.

 

[Tforbes]

No, you don't because you will lose the one advantage you have, technological superiority.

Are you saying that if you were to deploy... nothing... when your high tech equipment ran out you would retain your technological superiority better?

 

[Sigtrygg]

There are plenty of high tech worlds in the Marches that could provide high tech weaponry. Even Vincennes, TL16, is right there.

Just over the border...

within the Marches there are three TL15 high population worlds, those are your arms factories. Mora alone is TL15 high population (A) and industrial, they can provide the weapons, get wealth doing it, and oh look, the sector duke and sector admiralty happen to be based there.

 

[Sigtrygg]

100% they could. But I would then ask:
1. Did they submit a competitive bid?

They don't need to , this is the Third Imperium not a democracy. The sector duke makes a lot of money from weapon supply.

2. How much of a stockpile of ammunition and replacement parts did they supply to each system so, in the event of heavy or long term fighting, the high tech rifles don't turn into paperweights because theres no way to repair / replace them available.

which is why energy weapons are preferred, even gauss weapons have a less limited ammunition supply problem.

3. is the contract valuable enough to Vincennes (or any high TL world) that the procurement committee would earn a "favour" from them for granting it to them?

Trillions, I would say it is worth it.

Ultimately, we could critique every decision in this or any other book. Some decisions deserve it, some dont.

For me, I find it an interesting exercise to take this strange fact (Why did the Imperium equip its army with subpar equipment) and invent an explanation that could / would generate story.

It is a change to canon that makes little sense in setting...

And then they get roflstomped by the Zhodani... again

For example, Imperial soldiers on the front line find their weapons are less than effective so they launch a mission to assault an enemy supply depot to claim better weapons.

And are wiped out thanks to the TL superiority of the sensors, not to mention the psionics...

Or, Travellers are hired to steal Higher tech equipment from the Mora defence force (where every reservist is armed to the teeth with th best equipment available because it makes the Duchess feel safer) and bring it to the front lines where it will see real use.

And it only takes them four months to get there, commit high treason in time of war, and four months to get back.

Maybe a lone survivor blames a bureaucrat for his squads death because they didn't have the equipment they needed and the Travellers have to stop him.

Or side with him...

 

[Sigtrygg]

Are you saying that if you were to deploy... nothing... when your high tech equipment ran out you would retain your technological superiority better?

No, you wouldn't have the junk stockpiled. The Imperium has been equipping its armed forces to TL15 standards for over a century. It is a canonical fact that they are even fielding new generation TL15 equipment, as in TL15 replacement for earlier TL15.

It has TL15 stockpiled.