David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
Foxmeister said:
Well, some qualitys, Dodge, are subject to dice luck, others, weapons range, are of course predictable.
Not Another White Star Thread (TM)
- Thread starter Hindsight
- Start date
Well, some qualitys, Dodge, are subject to dice luck, others, weapons range, are of course predictable.
David said:
wow, another ISA player not seeing the problem. I don't see the problem with the G'Vrahn then, no, wait I did, damn, maybe i should be more concerned with winning than tryign to get some balance eh?
damnit, now I've got all annoyed. I feel a banning coming up....
hiffano said:
Digger vapourised a previously unscathed Primus in our last tournament game with a beam shot from his G'Vrahn (triple damage beam and crits ouch :lol: ) - Of course it died with the rest of his fleet two turns later :twisted:
White Stars are very very good - not sure they are broken but I have been very wrong before!!! Always happy to take on the ISA with the Centauri or Minbari.............
Kosh127
Mongoose
hiffano well I can see you have made up your mind on this matter. Thats fine. ITS JMO that yes the ship can do what people say. but this is how I look at it. if a minority screw things up it does not make it broken. a 8 inch beam is NOT a small change. thats over 50% decrease for no gain. how many times have you played against someone that abused the rules, with the WS? fixing someting or 1-5% of players is sad. There are much bigger things to fix. Do you belive that a 15 inch beam and the special fire rule on ALL special actions is not enough?? On that note I have play tested it and it gets very very hard on them. note I said hard on them not breaking them.
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
hiffano said:
You'll always find someone who can winge about something. I play White Stars and play against them as well. I don't do the "I'm guarenteed a victory" happy dance when I'm to play them, or wail and moan when I have to face them. The dice gawds usually leaven out the gaming bread.
I'm not going to knock anyone for having a different gaming experience, for it seems that each of us sees things from a different perspective. The "CheeseStar of Doom" is no more or less a problem than some other ships. You make up your best fleet compositon and have at them. Since the game is based on a show, my personal desire is that ships reflect what we see and scriptural canon rather than some sort of fabled "balance". If said ship is nasty, you value it at a higher point or priority level.I apologise, one win and 38 defeats against ISA using WS/BS heavy fleets does that too you, oh no, I tell a Lie, with liati support I beat ISA at the centauri/Earth war as well. (go on, tell me my tactics were wrong)
a 15" beam makes feck all difference to how it is currently played, people can still sit outside most fleets secondary/flank/aft weapons range and snipe, knowing full well they cannot get shot back. THAT is what people are getting at. now, I don't advocate an 8" beam, that is too much, likewise i think the 8" beam on the drakh raiders is pathetic, but can see why they got them. Also, where do you get the idea only up to 5% of players see the WS as broken? given my group consists of up to 6 players (and previously up to ten) all of whom felt the WS was a touch OTT then that is like 100%. Maybe it's us Brits, or more specifically us northerners, maybe we have too much of a desire for fair play and eveness.
a 15" beam makes feck all difference to how it is currently played, people can still sit outside most fleets secondary/flank/aft weapons range and snipe, knowing full well they cannot get shot back. THAT is what people are getting at. now, I don't advocate an 8" beam, that is too much, likewise i think the 8" beam on the drakh raiders is pathetic, but can see why they got them. Also, where do you get the idea only up to 5% of players see the WS as broken? given my group consists of up to 6 players (and previously up to ten) all of whom felt the WS was a touch OTT then that is like 100%. Maybe it's us Brits, or more specifically us northerners, maybe we have too much of a desire for fair play and eveness.
Kosh127
Mongoose
sorry I said 5% of ISA players that abuse the game. I believe that a 4 and 8 inch gun is just to weak and that all those guns should get a bump but I don't make the sats. a 15 in beam takes away alot of room for error. BTY the rules say you can check ranges it does not say you can check fire archs, of you enemy.
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
hiffano said:
Let me state for the record, while I like, and often prefer, my ISA fleet, I am not "an ISA player". I have and play 15 fleets (Uncluding the EA varients). Some of course, more often than others. But do not accuse me of mere favoritism. It would be inaccurate. There are more than a few ships with "problems". Most of us deal with them tactically and we get by. Any discussions concerning changes are fun and indeed often useful. If another doesn't see the problem you do or to the degree that you do, it is not cause for disdain or overreaction. I've learned more than a bit on these boards from the observations of others. Even when I do not concur with their opinions or conclusions, it does give me a perspective I did not have before.
As for "I feel a banning coming up", do what you will. I will not reflect badly on me.
Kosh127
Mongoose
I don't make my own rules. The rules of a game say what you can do not what you can't. If you go by the letter of the rules you can always get a fair straight ruling that is not byies to anyone. I agree with you that you should be able to. However, that is not what the rules say.
perhaps the name anlashok, the rangers gear and your defence of the whitestar mislead me. :lol:
burger you are probably correct, although i'm not generally sure tactically what to do when a ship can fly past my poor ole narn by turn two and then just sit behind me for the next 4 turns till iam dead!
Kosh, I must just be unlucky that I play every one of those 5% of players :-(
burger you are probably correct, although i'm not generally sure tactically what to do when a ship can fly past my poor ole narn by turn two and then just sit behind me for the next 4 turns till iam dead!
Kosh, I must just be unlucky that I play every one of those 5% of players :-(
Couple of general points:
1) Most ISA players like to take White Stars and Blue Stars (and Victorys if the game is large enough) as they are fun ship, fluffy ships and they are the iconic ships from the show so of course players are going to want to use them. Does this make them abusers of the ISA list? No. Do they get the same benefits even though they are not trying to take a cheesy fleet? Yes.
2) The way that the White Star is used in the show is to use the pulsars as at the very least an equal weapon to the beam, and to do strafing runs past enemy ships, using their speed and manoeuvrability not to sit out of "range" but instead to evade any pursuit and avoid enemies turning to bring their firepower to bear. Is this seen in the game currently? No (well, some players do but very few do once they realise, sitting in a side/aft arc at 10-18" range on CBD is far more effective). Would a knife fight version (or similar) achieve a style of play more matching the show? Probably yes.
3) katadder et al - I'm not going to argue on the exact value of a point of damage on a White Star but one extra point both sides have been forgetting is the self repair, meaning that the ship is normally limited by crew loss, not damage loss (further meaning that the ship isn't often crippled) - the crew value is 12, not 10.
1) Most ISA players like to take White Stars and Blue Stars (and Victorys if the game is large enough) as they are fun ship, fluffy ships and they are the iconic ships from the show so of course players are going to want to use them. Does this make them abusers of the ISA list? No. Do they get the same benefits even though they are not trying to take a cheesy fleet? Yes.
2) The way that the White Star is used in the show is to use the pulsars as at the very least an equal weapon to the beam, and to do strafing runs past enemy ships, using their speed and manoeuvrability not to sit out of "range" but instead to evade any pursuit and avoid enemies turning to bring their firepower to bear. Is this seen in the game currently? No (well, some players do but very few do once they realise, sitting in a side/aft arc at 10-18" range on CBD is far more effective). Would a knife fight version (or similar) achieve a style of play more matching the show? Probably yes.
3) katadder et al - I'm not going to argue on the exact value of a point of damage on a White Star but one extra point both sides have been forgetting is the self repair, meaning that the ship is normally limited by crew loss, not damage loss (further meaning that the ship isn't often crippled) - the crew value is 12, not 10.
I think the point has been identified. How can you balance a ship, that has a weakness to certain ships with the "Kills White Stars. Dead." special rule?hiffano said:
You can't. Game over.
Anything that is done to the White Star is going to make it worse against the things that already kill it. In a campaign setting, where you can choose which ships to take to a fight, I always face those craft specifically geared to killing me.
Why am I playing a game where my foes can just pick the "Kills White Stars. Dead." special rule, and my option is to use traits that the rock to my scissors ignores.
I have officially given up. Whatever is going to happen, will happen, I've repeated myself enough times where as little as I've been here my post count rivals people who've been with this game for years.
Those with Rock are going to cry nerf, so they can win.
Those with Scissors are going to cry nerf, so they can keep winning.
Rock Paper Scissors is fail.
Good Bye =D
That is a fair assesment, now then, we need to remove so many rocks to the Whitestars scissors, so remove the stupidly expanding e-mines for all!. so the WS is not fodder against them (again though, unless you are gaim, you might not even be able to field an effective antiWS fleet) THEN work on the WS to bring it to a more fair point of play against all the other ships. YES the Shadow scout will still kill it, Yes the Liati will still kill it, the liati at least is designed to kill WS. Lets not go ott and give it a mere 8" beam, as triggy said, it was a strafing ship in the show, now it is not. Kosh, and Hindsight try to play as the show, the problem is those who don't. and yes, people will sit a Kaliva at the back of the board and snipe too, but thats for a not whitestar thread. OR adopt burgers beam system, and you stop the runaway TD beam which is a mega killer, and you "should" remove the not hit thing that occasionally happens as well. this mitigates the beam issue and will then make people want to close in to fight anyway, which then gets rid of the CBD and sitting out of range issue. in effect this isn't nerfing the whitestar, it is nerfing abusive styles of play, which I think is more the issue than the stats, but the ships stats do promote that kind of play irrespective of how certain people choose to play it yes?
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
Da Boss said:
May be quite a bit. One or two beam dice can be anything from nothing to an assbeating. As much as I enjoy the rare occasion where two dice end up as a dozen hits, placing an end limit on hits would make it more predictable. All too often my White Stars beam dice just whiff..... I'd be content with more dice with a reroll limit, much like the Eldar pulse lance in BFG.
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
Hyperbole can be cathartic, yes?
There are only one or two options across the game that kill White Stars dead (and even then only when there is no terrain in a straight battle and you know what you're facing in advance).
In any other situation the White Stars shouldn't automatically win (and don't) but are significantly more powerful than most other combinations of ships. If we can solve this then the ISA/AoL fleet becomes a much more fun option for player and opponent.
In any other situation the White Stars shouldn't automatically win (and don't) but are significantly more powerful than most other combinations of ships. If we can solve this then the ISA/AoL fleet becomes a much more fun option for player and opponent.
