Armies of the Fifth Frontier War, Impressions Not Errata

[Vormaerin]

Having FGMPs as your side arm is problematic because those are area fire, radiation producing weapons. So soldiers equipped with them are not suitable for a wide range of deployment types. There needs to be a TL15 laser or gauss rifle with the fusion guns being the squad support or heavy weapons.

But, yeah, the whole idea of the Imperial Army being obsolete is silly. There absolutely should be a "provincial army" that might be TL12 or whatever is reasonable. But the Imperium itself should have mainline army units that are at the appropriate tech level.

 

[Condottiere]

Depends a lot on how militaries plan to fight.

Sword Worlders use a lot of heavy support weapons to deal with the more heavily armoured foes.

I view sidearms as personal defence weapons.

 

[CordwainerFish]

Having FGMPs as your side arm is problematic because those are area fire, radiation producing weapons. So soldiers equipped with them are not suitable for a wide range of deployment types.

Minds me of the legendary prototype atomic hand grenade, which had a radius of effect greater than the distance any soldier could hope to throw it.

 

[Vormaerin]

Depends a lot on how militaries plan to fight.

Sword Worlders use a lot of heavy support weapons to deal with the more heavily armoured foes.

I view sidearms as personal defence weapons.

If your primary weapon is an FGMP, then you are planning on always fighting where there are 0 friendlies or neutrals not in combat armor or battle dress. Which is a bit problematic on defense or garrison duty.

 

[Tforbes]

You don't have HG 2e original?

I give up, how do you copy a page from the pdf to link like you did?

I can't get it to work for HG2e

 

[Terry Mixon]

View attachment 5559

Yep. Looks like it was retro downgraded.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Yet another retcon to ignore...

at least they changed the AHL back to a tower block...

 

[MasterGwydion]

If your primary weapon is an FGMP, then you are planning on always fighting where there are 0 friendlies or neutrals not in combat armor or battle dress. Which is a bit problematic on defense or garrison duty.

Not problematic at all if they consider the Imperium to be more important than the citizens of the Imperium. Their job is to defend the Imperium, not it's citizens. It is a horrible viewpoint, but it wouldn't surprise Me.

 

[Sigtrygg]

There is a diference between counter insurgency, police action, and all out war.

If you are a TL15 infantryman on the TL15 battlefield you are alone...

your squad mates have to be far enough from you that one meson burst can't wipe out your fire team, or a plasma gun splash for that matter

but you can see and talk to them in your suit HUD which gives you full battle zone awareness

you rely on the sensor and comms network your suit plugs you into, although the remote sensors directly controlled by your suit AI give you immediate situational awareness in the event of killnet interruption, you effectively fight in an AR cyber battlefield

your suit armour protects you from the sort of threats that could destroy armoured vehicles at TL7

your suit ECM and point defence provides protection from most missile, drone, and indirect fired projectiles, you can always use your suit PDW weapon, rather than the FGMP-14 you lug around to take out enemy battle dress, to take out more lightly armourd foes

for the inevitable encounters with enemy gunships you can call in immediate support from meson artillery, and ortillery when available, you carry a limited number of anti vehicle weapons yourself, but the robotic missile pods and loitering munitions that roam the battlespace can be directed with but a thought

you are incredibly mobile, you can run faster for longer than any olympic 400m runner, while grav mobility grants access to the third dimension, although staying low to make use of ground clutter keeps you alive longer

 

[Condottiere]

You can now storm the trenches, with electric scooters.

Doctrine usually resorts to achieving objectives, with what's available, preferably most efficiently.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I doubt the TL15 battlefield uses trenches, meson artillery make short work of them.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I doubt the TL15 battlefield uses trenches, meson artillery make short work of them.

Only if the trenches also have meson screens.

Edit - Trenches still won't work due to how accurate ordinance is even these days. In 7 more TLs they are likely to be extremely accurate.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I have yet to see battlefield meson screens, can you find them? I may have missed them being detailed somewhere.

And it is ordnance, not ordinance.

 

[Sigtrygg]

This is a taste of what I think is mising:

Tech Level	Infantry equipment	Infantry support	Artillery	Vehicles
11	Combat armor is available which can be pressurized for operation in a vacuum, or hostile environment, but expense precludes general issue.	Tac missile warheads now include small nuclear weapons, range to 6 kilometers and incorporate inertial target memory and homing. LMG's have almost totally disappeared as support weapons. Mortars are almost completely replaced by inexpensive disposable remotely triggered rocket launcher (MRL) units. Representative units are 1 meter square and hold around 100 6 cm rockets. Each launcher can be manually placed or airdropped, and upon activation is brought into register by the battery fire control center. Since the launchers are disposable, no effort is made to confuse counter-battery radar. HE, smoke, cluster bomblets, HEAP, and HEAP follow-up rounds are available.	Field artillery is increasingly supplanted by remotely piloted drone missiles, although conventional MD guns and MRL's are still in wide use. The plasma B gun is now in use in the air defense role, with lighter A gun mounts supplementing the point defense capabilities of VRF gauss gun units. All fire control systems are improved by direct verbal communication by forward observers and fire direction officers with the system. The more mobile A gun is now very often used in a direct support role as 'well as in its previous role of air defense weapon.	All combat vehicles are now grav powered. The grav tank generally utilizes the more compact plasma A gun andlor tac missile racks. Very heavy grav tanks mount the plasma B gun. Light grav sleds are used for scouting, generally mounting tac missiles and autocannons. Close support sleds mount VRF gauss guns and tac missiles. All vehicles have pronounced free-flight capability.
12	The gauss rifle is introduced in limited numbers as a sniper weapon, expense Precluding general issue. The individual grav belt is occasionally used for scouting purposes.	The PGMP-12 is introduced as a high energy squad support weapon, in many units replacing the grenade launcher. Most other support is provided by gunships integrated at the squad and platoon level.	Both the plasma C gun and the heavier fusion X gun are introduced in the air defense and general direct fire role. The now highly mobile A gun completely supplants the VRF gauss gun in the point defense role. Conventional artillery is almost completely supplanted by drone missiles	All vehicles have sufficient free-flight performane that ground combat vehicles effectively no longer exist, having merged with aircraft. The primary weapon of the heavy gunships include plasma B guns, VRF gauss guns, and tac missiles. VRF gauss guns are also widely mounted on personnel carriers, as are plasma A guns.
13	All infantry is generally now in combat armor and equipped with gauss rifles. Battle dress is issued to selected assault troops.	The PGMP-13 is introduced as a support weapon in battle dress equipped units. The throw-away missile is introduced, incorporating televisual guidance and visual as well as inertial target location.	The first damper fields are introduced, enabling limited neutralization of incoming nuclear warheads. The fusion Y gun is introduced in the direct fire role, with the light plasma B gun taking over point defense. Gravitic compensators enable the heaviest fusion guns to fire on the move, and long-range direct fire by fusion guns executing popup maneuvers becomes standard.	The first damper fields allow protracted storage and transportation of elements with short half-lives. The first major use of the damper field militarily is to enable the manufacture, storage, and transportation of 2 cm californium rounds, fired from auto-cannon mounts in remotely piloted drones. Each round is hollow and collapses on impact, the collapsed round having sufficient mass to go critical, thus causing a small nuclear explosion. More conventional gunships mount plasma C guns or fusion X guns along with missiles.
14	A higher proportion of the infantry is equipped with battle dress, and the standard small arm for such troops becomes the PGMP-13.	At the squad level the PGMP-14 replaces the PGMP-12, while battle dress equipped units receive the FGMP-14 in place of the PGMP-13.	Much more sophisticated dampers enable virtually complete protection of operational areas from nuclear warheads. The fusion Z gun is introduced in the direct fire role.	More sophisticated damper fields render the californium drones obsolete. Gunships now carry fusion Y guns or rapid pulse X guns.
15	Most infantry is by now equipped with battle dress and has converted to the FGMP-14. The gauss rifle remains the standard arm of non-powered troops.	The FGMP-15 becomes the standard squad support weapon.	The primary direct fire weapon becomes the battlefield meson accelerator. Although much smaller than meson accelerators used in planetary defense, it is still by battlefield standards large, bulky, and extremely lethal. By now, the standard point defense and direct support weapon becomes the fusion Y gun. Drone missiles enjoy an increase in use as the appearance of meson accelerators linked to an increasingly sophisticated computer target acquisition and fire direction system makes the long-range popup increasingly impractical	Gunships mounting rapid pulse X guns and heavier Z guns are virtually indistinguishable from orbital craft. Lower performance personnel carriers mount rapid pulse X and Y guns and missile systems.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I have yet to see battlefield meson screens, can you find them? I may have missed them being detailed somewhere.

I have not, but they must exist. Load the spaceship model on a military cargo vehicle and Viola! lol

And it is ordnance, not ordinance.

Thank you for this. I hate when I do that.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I have not, but they must exist. Load the spaceship model on a military cargo vehicle and Viola! lol

I agree, there should be vehicle mounted meson screens - guess what gets targeted in the first wave...

I know that CT Striker mentioned city meson screens, but I have not come across a battlefield mobile version...

Thank you for this. I hate when I do that.

We all do it, it is a conscious effort to get it right, much like rogue...

 

[Condottiere]

Trenches will likely get carved out in the rural landscape.

Rubble will make makeshift curtain walls in urban areas.

 

[Peleliu]

I am generally not a critic of artwork, but the trend towards the anime/manga/robotech styles in recent publications does not appeal to me. Especially when depicting sophonts (in or out of armor). I first really noticed it with the Imperial Navy book; most of the figures are decent enough, but some of the styles and size scaling did not mesh well. The trend has only accelerated (how big are Aslan now?). I really miss the more realistic/technical art style like the Book 4 Mercenary Striker. That is the kind of art that helps my game immersion.

 

[MonsterX]

The TL 15 equipment - battledress, fusion guns - is really expensive, so I'd expect the number of troops equipped to that standard to be limited.

IRL, the ability of modern armies to fight a major protracted war using only state-of-the-art equipment is limited.

We see in the Ukraine war both sides relying heavily on TL 6 gear, and even TL 5 gear. Both sides have state-of-the-art systems, some of which are too expensive to field in numbers (for example, modern MBTs), and others which are becoming the mainstay of the conflict (drones) The Russians used a ship Kommuna commissioned in 1915 to recover items from the sunken Moskova. Maxim guns and Mosin Nagant rifles and howitzers designed in the 30s have seen combat, and tanks, APCs and IFVs from the 50s and 60s are common. The Ukrainians had lend-leased Thompson submachineguns in stockpile, unfortunately captured. 1950s anti-tank grenades - almost suicidal to use as designed - have been repurposed as drone bombs.

IRL, we are in a situation where the current tech is so expensive that only a limited number of people can have the best equipment. In the Iraq invitation, Donald Rumsfeld famously said "you go to war with the army you have" in response to criticism that some service members had Vietnam era gear. And this was not even an all-out war.

In a FFW situation, the Zhodani need to transport their soldiers to the battle and that transport capacity is the bottleneck. I expect they'll be equipping them to a high standard and those they can't afford to equip to TL 14 can guard the rear.

I don't find it puzzling at all that not all Imperial units are equipped to TL 15. There aren't that many high tech worlds in the Marches, or at all. I would expect, however, that there will be TL 15 stockpiles at bases, and probably also TL 14 gear, and that they will have back-compatibility built into their gear and doctrine, in order to be able to use lower tech gear as well, for example in ammo and spare parts. Certain critical types of assets might be kept at TL 15 as long as possible - as enablers to make the lower tech equipped units be more effective. Lower tech gear would be used where it doesn't matter so much, i.e. when the high tech doesn't give much advantage. High tech units' capabilities might be leveraged to make the lower tech units more effective, and this would no doubt be practiced and written into doctrine.

So I would expect that units wouldn't just have a single TL level and no gear of higher tech than that. Really important gear will probably always start out at TL 15, even if the rest of the unit doesn't have that tL, though maybe it will be replaced by lower tech gear later in the war.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The TL 15 equipment - battledress, fusion guns - is really expensive, so I'd expect the number of troops equipped to that standard to be limited.

IRL, the ability of modern armies to fight a major protracted war using only state-of-the-art equipment is limited.

We see in the Ukraine war both sides relying heavily on TL 6 gear, and even TL 5 gear. Both sides have state-of-the-art systems, some of which are too expensive to field in numbers (for example, modern MBTs), and others which are becoming the mainstay of the conflict (drones) The Russians used a ship Kommuna commissioned in 1915 to recover items from the sunken Moskova. Maxim guns and Mosin Nagant rifles and howitzers designed in the 30s have seen combat, and tanks, APCs and IFVs from the 50s and 60s are common. The Ukrainians had lend-leased Thompson submachineguns in stockpile, unfortunately captured. 1950s anti-tank grenades - almost suicidal to use as designed - have been repurposed as drone bombs.

IRL, we are in a situation where the current tech is so expensive that only a limited number of people can have the best equipment. In the Iraq invitation, Donald Rumsfeld famously said "you go to war with the army you have" in response to criticism that some service members had Vietnam era gear. And this was not even an all-out war.

In a FFW situation, the Zhodani need to transport their soldiers to the battle and that transport capacity is the bottleneck. I expect they'll be equipping them to a high standard and those they can't afford to equip to TL 14 can guard the rear.

I don't find it puzzling at all that not all Imperial units are equipped to TL 15. There aren't that many high tech worlds in the Marches, or at all. I would expect, however, that there will be TL 15 stockpiles at bases, and probably also TL 14 gear, and that they will have back-compatibility built into their gear and doctrine, in order to be able to use lower tech gear as well, for example in ammo and spare parts. Certain critical types of assets might be kept at TL 15 as long as possible - as enablers to make the lower tech equipped units be more effective. Lower tech gear would be used where it doesn't matter so much, i.e. when the high tech doesn't give much advantage. High tech units' capabilities might be leveraged to make the lower tech units more effective, and this would no doubt be practiced and written into doctrine.

So I would expect that units wouldn't just have a single TL level and no gear of higher tech than that. Really important gear will probably always start out at TL 15, even if the rest of the unit doesn't have that tL, though maybe it will be replaced by lower tech gear later in the war.

Remember though, 1 soldier in TL-15 Battledress with a Fusion Gun is worth way more on the battlefield than 500 TL-8-equipped soldiers. So, you can spend 500 times as much per soldier for a much higher return on investment.