New Babylon 5 novels ???

[Morden]

The problem is that jms has always been open to answering questions from fans, and is accessible. He wasn't the one who dragged this out into the open, he was asked some pretty direct questions on an open forum.

Believe me, I appreciate this, but the proper professional way to handle this is that if you can't give it your official public approval, you say nothing about it at all and cite contractual reasons or professional courtesy. Despite this, I consider JMS to be one of my stronger influences. I have a great deal of respect for him, so in that sense, it is a personal disappointment that he is going on the record against the work I'll be doing. Nevertheless, I'll carry on the work and hope for the best possible outcome.

 

[Chernobyl]

I belive JMS want to work creatively within B5, his attempts at "memory of the shadows" feature film and the graphic novel mention implys that he's got places for the storyline to go already worked out - unfortunately they aren't as commercially viable (my assumption - I could be wrong, there may be other reasons) as they were back in the 90s when B5 first came out.
I believe WB doesn't own all the rights, JMS owns the rights for feature films.
But I agree with W_I that JMS is a very busy person, and scheduling commitments don't allow time for oversight of a "continuity" to make everything canon - that would really be a full time job with several novels and the various RPG and Mini games in production. Its pretty much the same place that Staw Wars was with the comics and books - much of it is unofficial but it still out there. Lets hope however that when JMS does a B5 movie (which I fervently hope he will some day!) it won't be the utter crap "Phantom Menace" was...

Chern

 

[Morden]

I believe WB doesn't own all the rights, JMS owns the rights for feature films.

Glen A. Larson still owns the rights to Battlestar Galactica feature films. That still didn't stop Richard Hatch from publishing several novels set in the BSG universe, or the new series from being made. Based on the things I've read about the direction Larson would go if given the chance, I think that classic BSG is in better hands with Hatch than with him.

 

[Tanit Ironwolf]

>Then again, it's public knowledge that JMS's disputes with MGM and TNT >have spelled the death of two television shows.

Wow I wasn't aware of this. I'm smelling a pattern here?? To add to the point again. Unless something else has been said or posted. Mongoose said they tried to contact JMS to get his involvement with the B5 novels. They even admitted that when they made their offer, it was based on them having little or no experience on working with someone in his position. They pointed this out to him if I understood their post on the matter. Yet JMS never replied back to them! From my understanding how they became aware of JMS not being interested in working with Mongoose. Was from reading online a post from JMS when he replied to a fans question about the subject!!! I have no idea how things work in Hollywood or in the publishing business. But where I live that comes across as very unproffessional... So far as a fan of Mongoose and what I've read online. The only JMS reply on the subject has been to fans. Your telling me the guy is so busy he can't e-mail Mongoose and say, Hey guys. your offer was a joke so I'm not gonna support your products. No instead I'm getting the impression JMS is implying this to the fans and its getting back to Mongoose. So correct me if I'm wrong but every post I've read from Mongoose on this subject. Has been very respectful towards JMS. The two posts I've read from JMS does not give me the same impression.

 

[Tanit Ironwolf]

I wanna add one more thing... I'm not faulting JMS for wanting to be paid for his work!!!! I'm not asking him to do this for free cause the fans want it. All I'm saying is I think he could have handled Mongooses offer in a better manner. He has been in the business long enough to know how to confirm an offer from a legit business and a fly by night operation. So he could have easily confirmed with WB what work Mongoose has been doing on the B5 license. Then contacted them back and said, hey guys. your offer was so low that I kinda took it as an insult. but if you want me to be involved in this. Here is what its gonna take money wise and input wise. Again just my feelings on this subject.

 

[Black Omega]

I wanna add one more thing... I'm not faulting JMS for wanting to be paid for his work!!!! I'm not asking him to do this for free cause the fans want it. All I'm saying is I think he could have handled Mongooses offer in a better manner. He has been in the business long enough to know how to confirm an offer from a legit business and a fly by night operation.

From my limited perception of the whole situation the initial difficulties started with the unfortunate timing of Mongooses initial approach to JMS. From what i gather their approach to JMS came along shortly after a wrangle between him and Warner Bros over some consultation they wanted him to do. Refer to the following post from JMS in October last year back when the issue first became public.

This is getting annoyingly commonplace. I got an email from the Warner
Bros. division handling the German DVD superbox, for instance, wherein
they said, very happily, that they were figuring on getting maybe six
to ten million bucks for this new edition, and would I help them to
make sure everything was right, to consult with them on the design, the
packaging, the text, the artwork, the docs, a bunch of stuff. So I
said, again not unreasonably, "And what is WB's standard fee for this
consultation?"


To which WB responded that they don't pay people for the honor to be
involved in these DVDs. But he's getting paid, the guy who did the
artwork is getting paid, the only person who's not getting paid is the
guy who made it. So I declined. They replied with ominous words
suggesting that it would be bad if I let the fans down...but I don't
bow down for emotional blackmail.

That last bit is also interesting from another point of view. I know Matthew Sprange has said that Mongoose has repeatedly tried to contact JMS via private email. But perhaps JMS is interpreting the recent and so it seems increasingly common messages addressed to him from Matt via the open usenet forum to be a form of emotional blackmail. After all, they are effectively putting him on the spot in front of the whole fanbase which carries with it a certain pressure to respond.

 

[Kizarvexis]

>Then again, it's public knowledge that JMS's disputes with MGM and TNT >have spelled the death of two television shows.

Wow I wasn't aware of this. I'm smelling a pattern here??

Before you make assumptions, go read what happened with Crusade on The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5 (Crusade eps) and at JMSNews.com (starting 19 Sep. '98 ). After seeing War Zone and reading about things that TNT wanted to put into Crusade, I don't fault jms for saying NO. I don't know what happened on Jeremiah, but I'm sure JMSNews.com has jms' side of that as well.

Kizarvexis

 

[Greg Smith]

There are always two sides to every story.

JMS doesn't want his artistic vision altered. TNT & WB have to make shows that people will watch in sufficient numbers that they can make money. In that creative process there has to be compromise and JMS comes across as a man not willing to compromise his vision.

As for his disputes killing Crusade and Jeremiah, I doubt it. If the shows had been succesful, they would never have been cancelled.

 

[Aramanthus]

The biggest reason for the LOtR floped was the blame of "Bonnie Hammer", the president of the Scifi Channel network! She must be held responsible for that failure. They ran it during the super bowl for Kosh's sake. That is just incompetent. Remember she is the one who cancelled Farscape at it's peak. She is a moron of the highest quality! Please don't lay this blame on JMS, he is innocent.

 

[ATimson]

As for his disputes killing Crusade and Jeremiah, I doubt it. If the shows had been succesful, they would never have been cancelled.

Not so for Crusade, as the cancellation occured before even a single episode aired....

 

[Kizarvexis]

There are always two sides to every story.

JMS doesn't want his artistic vision altered. TNT & WB have to make shows that people will watch in sufficient numbers that they can make money. In that creative process there has to be compromise and JMS comes across as a man not willing to compromise his vision.

As for his disputes killing Crusade and Jeremiah, I doubt it. If the shows had been succesful, they would never have been cancelled.

I don't know about Jeremiah, but I do know that TNT Atlanta killed Crusade when jms would not make the new changes that they wanted. The TNT branch in California, didn't have problems with Crusade. TNT Atlanta, the HQ, wanted more fighting and more sex. Somewhere is the mention of a memo for the addition of an 'explorer' character to meet new people like the Lumati seal deals. Ugh. Apparently B5 fans didn't watch the wrestling & stuff and the wrestling & stuff people didn't watch B5. TNT Atlanta wanted to marry the two in Crusade, but that was not the story jms was writing. When jms would not follow TNT Atlanta demands for new changes, after they accepted Crusade in the first place, they cancelled the show.

The biggest reason for the LOtR floped was the blame of "Bonnie Hammer", the president of the Scifi Channel network! She must be held responsible for that failure. They ran it during the super bowl for Kosh's sake. That is just incompetent. Remember she is the one who cancelled Farscape at it's peak. She is a moron of the highest quality! Please don't lay this blame on JMS, he is innocent.

LotR ran during the snow game where the Raiders lost to the Patriots on the tuck rule. JMS was pretty much of the opinion of 'those are the breaks in Hollywood', IIRC. Although the show built raitings each 15 min, which jms said that meant more and more people dropped in and stayed, it didn't quite reach the rating point that Sci-Fi wanted to do a series. It did run past that point on the west coast, when it ran after the playoff game, but the poor ratings on the east coast, most likely attributed to one of the better playoff games in recent years, killed the overall rating to lower than the threshold. Also we found out later, that the poor cgi for the ships was due to the fact that in between Crusade and LotR, WB lost all the CGI for B5. So everything had to be made from scratch.

Kizarvexis

 

[lastbesthope]

There are always two sides to every story.

C'mon Greg, you know there's three sides to everything :lol:

LBH

 

[narrativium]

The recent posts by JMS don't suggest he has a problem with Mongoose Publishing producing Babylon 5 novels, as such - B5 is owned by Warner Bros, Mongoose clearly has licence to use the material. And JMS has clearly co-operated with Mongoose in the past - he wrote an introduction to the first edition of the RPG, he supplied scripts / outlines for episodes not filmed in the first season of Crusade.

What JMS is complaining about is the implication from comments he's read, made by MS in the Babylon Podcast, that he's had input and is endorsing the new Babylon 5 novels as being consistent with the continuity he wrote out, a million years in either direction of the five years of his saga.

He hasn't had a problem with people setting stories in his universe. That was part of his aim when he allowed other writers to write episodes for the first two seasons of B5, the first season of Crusade. He wrote outlines for specific stories to wrap up threads from the universe (the Centauri trilogy, the Psi Corps, the Technomages) because people were interested in those arcs and he wanted to be sure that people used his characters - since there was a concern in earlier B5 novels that people created stories for their own characters on B5. His universe has been open, except during the latter seasons of B5 when the complexity of the story arc prevented him from adequately communicating all the story threads another writer needed to bear in mind when writing a script.

The problem appears to lie in the implication that he's endorsed material he doesn't endorse, he's supplied material he hasn't supplied, he's assumed to be part of the team when he hasn't been involved. It looks like he's been prepared to keep quiet, except where people are using his name to gain credibility, and it's apparent from other posts he's made that he's had enough trouble with people at conventions, among other things, claiming his approval where it isn't given.

MS and Mongoose, in my view, have done a great job in exploring the universe as far as background material is involved. I haven't read the pre-written adventures and I've only read one of the novels, but the novel didn't create much of a positive impression on me for several reasons, so I'm inclined to not think of it as canon. But I'm open to new opinions based on further information if further novels come out and build upon what's there.

 

[frobisher]

As for his disputes killing Crusade and Jeremiah, I doubt it. If the shows had been succesful, they would never have been cancelled.

Crusade was cancelled before it aired, and before the third block of filming they'd been promised, and actually had pretty decent ratings once shown on TNT. It was a "political" decision made by some higher ups at TNT who reacted badly to the way that jms ran the show (ie identically to how he ran B5...) as they weren't used to that.

Jeremiah again had reasonably decent ratings, jms left the series at the end of the second season because he couldn't work constructively with MGM any more. At that point, MGM felt they couldn't continue it. The show was gearing up for a third season, and without anyone willing to hold the helm, it wound up.

 

[nitflegal]

LotR ran during the snow game where the Raiders lost to the Patriots on the tuck rule. JMS was pretty much of the opinion of 'those are the breaks in Hollywood', IIRC. Although the show built raitings each 15 min, which jms said that meant more and more people dropped in and stayed, it didn't quite reach the rating point that Sci-Fi wanted to do a series. It did run past that point on the west coast, when it ran after the playoff game, but the poor ratings on the east coast, most likely attributed to one of the better playoff games in recent years, killed the overall rating to lower than the threshold. Also we found out later, that the poor cgi for the ships was due to the fact that in between Crusade and LotR, WB lost all the CGI for B5. So everything had to be made from scratch.

Kizarvexis

That was indeed part of it. However, what is conveniently left out when JMS dances this dance is that the re-runs of the LotR tanked as well, indicating that those who chose to watch football instead didn't have a deep desire to catch it later. Subsequent reruns actually underperformed for their Sci-Fi channel timeslot, with viewers leaving partway through.

Beyond that, since Crusade we've sen how many JMS series that he walked away from? How many that were ever so close but didn't get off the ground. Each time we seem to get a variation of "I tried, but the evil Huns tried to get me to compromise my vision and I had no choice to walk". The first time, I cheered his conviction but after several television, movie, and comic variations on this I do begin to wonder as to his accuracy in reporting these.

Beyond that, I haven't seen a lot of evidence that JMS has given a flying fig for the license properties in years. Certainly way back in the AoG and Chameleon days he rarely bothered to give notes or guidance, what did come was usually from Fionna and often had a barely passing resemblance to established continuity.

I would also say that it seems that it was JMS who took this all public initially, as a snarky way of showing how ill-treated he once again was. He has continued to do so, when he could have let it die at anytime. Had he worried about his reputation, he could have simply stated that he was not contributing notes or assistance to the project and left it at that. However, he couldn't pass up the chance to kick the crap out of someone paying him royalties who seems to have bent over backwards to work with him on this. Classy, truly classy.

Matt

 

[B_Steele]

Sure, I'd like everyone to accept it wholeheartedly as canon, but that'll never happen...there is always someone who will say "Nope...this other book/website/company said..."

But, above all else...canon or not...I hope you guys enjoy the stories being told.

Especially mine. :lol:

I mean, that's why we do it...right? To entertain/be entertained? I just want the work to be appreciated for what they are...nifty stories you haven't heard before.

-Bry

 

[Tanit Ironwolf]

>usually from Fionna and often had a barely passing resemblance to established continuity.

I remember those days. :shock: Fans knew more about B5 than she did.

>But, above all else...canon or not...I hope you guys enjoy the stories being told.

>Especially mine.

Hahaha... Well I wrote a paragraph or more in an earlier post, trying to explain exactly this!!! Now I know why you are the writer and I am not.
To me I don't care if JMS says its canon or not. As long as I enjoy the story. Thank you.

 

[frobisher]

Beyond that, since Crusade we've sen how many JMS series that he walked away from? How many that were ever so close but didn't get off the ground. Each time we seem to get a variation of "I tried, but the evil Huns tried to get me to compromise my vision and I had no choice to walk". The first time, I cheered his conviction but after several television, movie, and comic variations on this I do begin to wonder as to his accuracy in reporting these.

Erm that would be one series (Jeremiah). That's the only one he walked away from.

The Babylon 5 movie just failed to get going due to funding difficulties.

 

[nitflegal]

Beyond that, since Crusade we've sen how many JMS series that he walked away from? How many that were ever so close but didn't get off the ground. Each time we seem to get a variation of "I tried, but the evil Huns tried to get me to compromise my vision and I had no choice to walk". The first time, I cheered his conviction but after several television, movie, and comic variations on this I do begin to wonder as to his accuracy in reporting these.

Erm that would be one series (Jeremiah). That's the only one he walked away from.

The Babylon 5 movie just failed to get going due to funding difficulties.

I was including comic and book stuff as well. He has also had several in-development projects that crashed and burned and the backstage stuff on those is reputed to be rather damning.

The guy does good work and I wish he did more of it. However, he's developed a heck of a reputation as a prima donna in TV/comic circles.

Matt

Matt

 

[nitflegal]

>usually from Fionna and often had a barely passing resemblance to established continuity.

I remember those days. :shock: Fans knew more about B5 than she did.

>But, above all else...canon or not...I hope you guys enjoy the stories being told.

>Especially mine.

Hahaha... Well I wrote a paragraph or more in an earlier post, trying to explain exactly this!!! Now I know why you are the writer and I am not.
To me I don't care if JMS says its canon or not. As long as I enjoy the story. Thank you.

My cat knew more about B5 than Fionna. . .

I look forward to the B5 stories being of the usual Mongoose quality (besides, I really want to bust Bruce on his book!) and I will buy them. Besides, whether they are considered true canon or not, I suspect that what Mongoose produces is going to be the only "official" B5 product that we're going to see for a very long time. Thus, I'm not especially worried about official projects contradicting them.

Matt