Lone Wolf Fantasy Battle rules

[mthomason]

One question though would you envision a set of rules using minis on round bases?

I actually prefer round bases. It works well for skirmish-level games, and discourages people using blocky formations a la Warhammer Fantasy Battle - those work well for regiments of Napoleonic or Civil War (UK Civil War) troops, but when you stick a bunch of Giaks on the table I think they're gonna swarm you, not march in rank and file formations.

I envisage very messy battles in Magnamund, where troops start off in nice lines across the battlefield and quickly break up into irregular lumps as the fighting begins.

GW's LotR game (with round bases) makes this work nicely, I feel, especially for the monster/human/cavalry mix - I'd hope for something as simple as this for LW, echoing the RPG rules.

 

[mthomason]

The LOTR strategy battle game by GW uses round bases for its miniatures and it works quite well.

LOL, get out of my head!

 

[mthomason]

The main problem with that game, however, is when large numbers of troops come into play, as the amount of dice-rolling can get astronomical, since there are no units but instead dozens or even hundreds of individual soldiers in play.

Something I'm sure could be overcome with some thought.
Something like a system that allowed you to roll 1 die per 10 identical combatant pairs involved, and take the same result for each - or with a simple table to roll on to see how the losses should be split (20/80, 50/50, 70/30, etc.)

 

[columbob]

The main problem with that game, however, is when large numbers of troops come into play, as the amount of dice-rolling can get astronomical, since there are no units but instead dozens or even hundreds of individual soldiers in play.

Something I'm sure could be overcome with some thought.
Something like a system that allowed you to roll 1 die per 10 identical combatant pairs involved, and take the same result for each - or with a simple table to roll on to see how the losses should be split (20/80, 50/50, 70/30, etc.)

I think your second idea would be more balanced, otherwise a single die roll would send a dozen friendly models to their doom in a single round...not very nice.

 

[Winter Wolf]

I was also thinking LOTR! :shock: :shock: :shock:

I think that the system works very well and although I have heard people complain that fixed battles are the same because the rules are too simple. That is not the case if you play scenarios and the system is so geared to playing scenarios and there are so many available that you never need play the same game again.

This would be ideal for LW it would allow you to play big set peice battles if that is your thing or if you prefer you can play smaller senario based games using smaller number of minis like Lone Wolfs rescue at Ruamas with just Banedon, lone Wolf, Giaks and a Giak captain. Or Flight to the Tarnalin with Lone Wolf, Rhygar and his men trying to break past the Helghast and exit by the other table edge. This I think would make the game appeal to more people who like minis but just can't bring them selves around to the idea of having to paint up one possably two full blow armies. A system like this would allow you to start playing with small numbers of minis quickly and you can build up to whatever forces you want.

Another advantage with the LOTR system is that it is perfect for fighting sieges or in buldings or tunels and other confined spaces. Anyone fancy playing the first siege of the Kai Monestary?

The supplements such as Battle Of The Pelenor Fields that have been released by GW would also be a good basis for LW campain books lots of background and new troops but including RPG stats and scenarios but including adventure hooks. This I feel would greatly increase the popularity of such a supplement providing an easy way for players to draw the RPG and Miniature battles together.

At one time I was thinking of doing a simple adaptation of the rules for Lone Wolf. Put together stat lines for the chars, troops and creatures. and I would add a an extra phase right at the begining before movement for Psychic combat to fit in with the RPG and to give the game something rules wise specific to Magnamund, it would also provide that little bit extra tactical diversity. I don't want to steal any of Mongooses thunder so for now I think we should leave it to them. I don't want to do anything that would stop them producing a LW miniatures game.

Finally I really like the appearance of round bases they look so much better than the square ones in my opinion.

Fingers crossed here is hoping that Mongoose do this some time in the not too distant future.

 

[Anonymous]

I approached Dever about writing a set of LW fantasy battle rules some time ago. I proposed to base it off a samurai rulset I designed called "Killer Katanas," addapting it to the world of Magnamund.

Dever at the time was working for Electronic Arts and making Shogun: Total War--my books were being used as reference there and he knew who I was from my authorship and from having been a member of the LW club back in the early 80's-90's.

Dever said that he would have liked to do such a project, but at that time he could not commit himself to being able to supply any information on the world that I would need in order to create the game rules. He said perhaps in the future there would be time, but it never came to pass.

I would very much like to see the Mighty Armies line addapted to LW. At one time I used to have a 15mm Drakkar and Lencian/Euran army for the Battle of Cetza, having adapted other lines, with the assistance of Dever, to suit the creature types. Dever was kind enough to send me a video of his 25mm LW armies for the Darke siege on the show "motormouth."

Simularly, GW is putting out a 10mm Battle of Five armies warmaster boxed set. While I am primarily a historical miniature gamer, I plan to be all over that. I would equally, if not more, be all over any product like that dealing with the world of LW.

Brian

 

[Winter Wolf]

Hi Killer Katanas,

Thanks for the info, I think that this is something Dever would really like to see, thats what he said to a group of us at the Mongoose open day and he did say that he thought 15mm would be perfect for it. As Mongoose seem to be coming to the end of the line with Mighty Armies it would seem logical to use the same know how to develop Magnamund Armies.

My concerns with this would be:

1. where does this leave the 25mm models that Mongoose have been producing. They are real nice!

2. I would want a more involving set of rules based on mighty armies but with scenarios, campain rules, siege rules, the ability to play on a much bigger table, rules for different terrain and more skills for exploiting it, a variety of spells, psychic combat etc. I guess a 64 page book could cover this or if it was made up to 128 it could contain the army lists and campains of Magnamund and a nice bit of background. If this book was fifteen pounds or there about It would be a great low cost introduction to the war gaming in Magnamund.

3. More than two sets I would like to see at least six-eight. I would like to see Darklords, Drakkarim, Sommelending, Vassagonian, Dessi, Lencia, Bor, Stornlands. If it did well a second suplement could cover Southern Magnamund with Shadakine, Chai, Freedom Guild, Kundi, Agarashi etc... :roll:

What ever Mongoose do with Lone Wolf Fantasy Battles I will buy, buy, buy.


I'm really looking forward to BOFA as well that is going to be very cool.

 

[Winter Wolf]

Is this your game Brian? Looks good!

http://members.aol.com/KllrKatnas/

 

[Ghost Bear]

I'd also like to see rules for converting your RPG characters into characters playable on the wargames table. Dunno if that's already in Mighty Armies, but it'd be well cool.

-GB

 

[Winter Wolf]

I'd also like to see rules for converting your RPG characters into characters playable on the wargames table. Dunno if that's already in Mighty Armies, but it'd be well cool.

-GB

That would be cool! I don't think you could do that in Mighty armies however as each base represents several models. This is another agument in favour of something in 28mm where one model generally represents one character. I do think you would be able to tie in more with the RPG if you used 28mm.

So what are the benefits of 15mm and what are the benefits of 28mm? :?

 

[Ghost Bear]

One obvious benifit of 15mm is that you get more models for your money. A follow on from this is that you can fight bigger battles.

Compare this to 28mm, where you get less models for you money, therefore it might be quicker to paint up your army and get fighting. The models will generally be more detailed, and I'd imagine that conversions would be easier. Also, you can fight smaller skirmishes that might not be possible with bases of models.

I assume that Mighty Armies is a bit like Games Workshop's Warmaster game?

-GB

 

[mthomason]

For 28mm:
- A far greater range of third-party 28mm figures that can be combined into your games (either to represent figures not yet cast by Mongoose, or for that silly but fun LotR/LW crossover game)
- Easier to paint, IMHO
- Terrain from any other 28mm games you may be collecting fits the scale

For 15mm:
- As far as I'm concerned, nothing. I'm a big fan of 6mm Epic Scale, but 15mm just doesnt seem to fit either way for me.

 

[Winter Wolf]

Mighty armies is bit like Warmaster in that you have numerous troops per base.

For 15mm
- more models bigger armies and more big beasts such as Kraan.
- pre-built fortifications cheaper.

For 28mm
- I can use the minis that I have already painted and mongoose already has the beginings of a range out there, may entice people who already have purchased a few minis to support RPG particularily if some smaller scale skirmish scenarios are included using the existing models.
- more useful in skirmish type games so you could use them to recreate sections of the LW books using minis. If the rules allow for this kind of story based skirmish with small numbers of models you could get playing more quickly.
- It would give you a bigger range of models that you could use for the RPG and allow you to potentially convert RPG characters for use on the battle field.
- the terrain argument definitely works for me as I already have quite a bit of 28mm terrain.
- a Kraan would be truely impressive.
- greater cross over of supporting material with the RPG.

I think I have now come off of the fence 28mm for me.

Also I think a book of scenarios allowing players to play out parts of the LW gamebooks using the minis would be fantastic. This would entice many potential players I feel.

- LW, Pelethar, Royal Guard, Gourgaz and Giaks.
- LW, Rygar and men fleeing to the Tarnalin
- LW, Rangers, Bandits
- LW, Banedon, Dwarven Gunners, Drakkarim, Kraan, Vordaks and the Skyrider.

 

[Anonymous]

Is this your game Brian? Looks good!

http://members.aol.com/KllrKatnas/

Yes, thats mine, but it is a very old site. Right now there is a second edition that is ready to be published by Brookhurst Hobbies. If you like samurai then I have to say that my rules really are the best for mass battles. You can still get the 1st ed at BH.

Anyway, I taked to Bruce at Gencon So Cal about mighty armies expanding into LW and he said he'd pass it along. When I posted this subject long ago it fell on deaf ears.

I agree that MA is a great tool to get into the LW world. LW is an established world that has thousands of fans. You don't have to develop anything because Dever has already done it. Now, if 15mm is the right scale for the game, from a person that plays massive historical battles, the smaller scales easily lend themselves to this. Most of my Samurai, Napoleonic, Renaissance, 19th and 20th century games involve at least a thousand figures or more on each side. Doing this in 25mm would require too large a table to play on and quite a large budget. There is a big trend now in the U.S. of those switching to 10mm. 6mm is just too small, but it looks excellent on the tabletop because you can actually put 500 figures out to represent a Regiment and it won't cost you very many $$.

I also agree that any such LW rules should have supplements. A seperate Army list book would be great, perhaps a scenario book too. I have always wanted to fight the great battle of Maakengorge. A painting guide would also be nice.

At the time I was building my armies for the Battle of Cetza, Joe provided me with his thoughts on the armies of Magnamund. Concerning the Giaks, they are organized as Regiments of 360 each. There are 9 Regiments per Brigade and 2-3 Brigades per Army. Given that my scale-to-figure ratio was 1:10, that was 36 figures per Regiment or 324 figures per Brigade. 2-3 of the regiments are mounted on doomwolves, one has a siege train, and 3 others have Gourgaz leaders.

The reason I went with a scale of 1:10 was because almost all the Human races, including the Drakkarim, used "battles" of 200 men each, giving me 20 figures to a Regiment. I would have liked to go to a 1:20 scale, but to me 10 figures in a unit at 15mm scale looks tacky and not very "massive"

Brian

 

[Anonymous]

I'd be happy with some Mighty army boxed sets but not just two. I'd like to see for a start.

Darklords(Giaks,helghast, doomwolves, kraan)
Drakkarim.
Sommelending.
Vassagonian.

There isn't much need to have boxed sets of all the armies. Dever created his world with historical counterparts.

For example, in the information he sent to me he said that the Summerlund army was based on 12th century English, The Euran were 13th century Italian, Lencian 13th century French and the Vassagonians were Ottoman Turks. These troops could be obtained from other historical lines. The BIG need is for Darklord stuff: Giaks, Drakkarim, Helghast, Gourgaz, Kraan, Doomwolves, dark magicians and also the kingdom of Bor.

Brian

 

[Winter Wolf]

There isn't much need to have boxed sets of all the armies. Dever created his world with historical counterparts.

For example, in the information he sent to me he said that the Summerlund army was based on 12th century English, The Euran were 13th century Italian, Lencian 13th century French and the Vassagonians were Ottoman Turks. These troops could be obtained from other historical lines. The BIG need is for Darklord stuff: Giaks, Drakkarim, Helghast, Gourgaz, Kraan, Doomwolves, dark magicians and also the kingdom of Bor.

Brian

I agree that there are good models to represent may of the 'historical' armies that form an important part of LW I did a bit of research a couple of months ago, I even managed to find some nice 15mm Eskimos for ice barbarians. I don't know if this would encourage Mongoose or not it does mean that they could probably approach a third party mini producer and sort out a rebadge very quickly. I agree with you one hundred percent on the availability of good fantasy proxies for Magnamunds more unusual types. The 15mm goblins and orcs that I have seen just don't cut it as Giaks and I haven't been able to find anything that works as Drakkarim either. The pictures of Drakkarim in the Darklands with very skull like helmets have really grown on me and that is the kind of thing I would like to see for a Drakkarim force. Bor is the same, no 15mm dwarves with guns.

Other forces that would be interesting are Elder Magi, and Cener Druids of Ruel. I could see the Elder Magi using sky ships, and other arcane devises and the Cener Druids with their ratmen and other creations. While I'm dreaming it would be great to release a book on the Druid Wars detailing the armies, scenarios, campaign and lots of juicy background. That would be my preferred way of handling books and releases a campaign book covering a geographical area or historical period with army lists maps etc.

- You could have Flight From the Dark - Fire on the Water fight the battles that form a backdrop to LW adventures such as the destruction of the Kai Monetary, Sack of Toran, Prince Pelethar bridge battle, Protect the refugees, Siege of Holmguard.

- The Fall of Agarash. A high powered campaign pitting the Elder Magi against the Agarashi.

- Dark Crusade. Lencia V Drakkarim sieges, large set piece battles skirmishes etc.

- Ice Barbarian invasion of the Lastlands. Ice barbarian Vs Durenor. Raids, Fortified supply convoys, winter environmental rules.

- Gnaags assault on the free nations awesome continent spanning campaign

- War of the dragons, mmm! This kind of thing would be one of my main reasons for going 15mm affordable giant creatures.

Another great factor is that there is some superb 15mm terrain out there fortifications in particular that are a hell of a lot cheaper than 28mm scale stuff.

Campaign books would also be able to explore some background things like the Siege of Tekaro that always struck me as very suspect it got the Stornlands nations to turn the attention away from the Darklands and Slovia to turn their attention away from Vassagonia so the background could expand on this.

The background info you got off of Joe is fascinating thanks for sharing.

 

[mthomason]

In 28mm, I can take a character model and happily spend a couple of hours (or more) painting them to the standard they deserve. They also double for RPG use.

In 15mm I just can't get the detail in I want when painting. I like a 1:1 ratio, so that usually means a 28mm skirmish or a 6mm war. If I can't paint lovely 28mm detailed figures I'd rather go to the other extreme and have tiny little 6mm "dots"

If we're talking size of battlefield, then I find the LotR game works well even for the Battle of Pelennor Fields. Admittedly you have to focus on a small part of it, or break it up into a few scenarios.

Finally, I'm already collecting the 28mm figures for LW and am planning on having a good few hundred of them... I really do not want to have to collect two different scales of the same figures (hence my refusal to buy GW's Battle of Five Armies game, which to me just seems a ploy to get you to collect a whole new range from scratch when 95% of the existing LotR range fits just fine). I pretty much dumped my 40K collection when I started collecting Epic (there was something about lining up ten companies of Blood Angels and seeing the entire chapter at once).

I'd be willing to compromise with a LW game which could be played in either 28mm or 15mm scale, with both ranges maintained. However, then I'd worry about split sales not making enough money to keep either range going very long, as well as the production difficulties of so many additional figures at once.

My recommendation would be to do a 28mm "skirmish" game first, as the beginnings of a miniatures range to support this are already done and to consider a 15/6mm game for longer-term, once the 28mm sales are tailing off. The added sales of 28mm to roleplayers would also ensure the miniatures line sold well enough for Mongoose to support it properly with continual new releases. Those who just like collecting miniatures for display shouldn't be discounted either - anything smaller than 28mm just isn't worth standing on a shelf.

 

[Winter Wolf]

In 28mm, I can take a character model and happily spend a couple of hours (or more) painting them to the standard they deserve. They also double for RPG use.

In 15mm I just can't get the detail in I want when painting. I like a 1:1 ratio, so that usually means a 28mm skirmish or a 6mm war. If I can't paint lovely 28mm detailed figures I'd rather go to the other extreme and have tiny little 6mm "dots"

I like 15mm but my prefered sizes are 28mm then 10mm ala warmaster.

If we're talking size of battlefield, then I find the LotR game works well even for the Battle of Pelennor Fields. Admittedly you have to focus on a small part of it, or break it up into a few scenarios.

I think LOTR works fantasticaly well it is my favourite games system if Mongoose could do something like that I would buy in a heart beat. I agree that this would be perfect for LW from skirmish to siege. You can play large battles on a six by four table the only issue being the amount of time it takes to move all of that stuff about.

My prefered LOTR games are the smaller ones I really enjoyed the scenarios from the Fellowship of the Ring book. I would think a book full of scenarios following LW would be imensly popular.

What I don't want to see is a Warhammer clone LOTR is very scalable Warhammer isn't.

Finally, I'm already collecting the 28mm figures for LW and am planning on having a good few hundred of them... I really do not want to have to collect two different scales of the same figures (hence my refusal to buy GW's Battle of Five Armies game, which to me just seems a ploy to get you to collect a whole new range from scratch when 95% of the existing LotR range fits just fine). I pretty much dumped my 40K collection when I started collecting Epic (there was something about lining up ten companies of Blood Angels and seeing the entire chapter at once).

Ditto on the 28mm I have most of them and they are very nice I will be buying at least one pack of each of course I will buy lots more if there are battle rules out there.

I think GW had to do BOFA in a different scale because some other mini producer has the rights to produce 25mm minis from the hobbit.

I'd be willing to compromise with a LW game which could be played in either 28mm or 15mm scale, with both ranges maintained. However, then I'd worry about split sales not making enough money to keep either range going very long, as well as the production difficulties of so many additional figures at once.

My recommendation would be to do a 28mm "skirmish" game first, as the beginnings of a miniatures range to support this are already done and to consider a 15/6mm game for longer-term, once the 28mm sales are tailing off. The added sales of 28mm to roleplayers would also ensure the miniatures line sold well enough for Mongoose to support it properly with continual new releases. Those who just like collecting miniatures for display shouldn't be discounted either - anything smaller than 28mm just isn't worth standing on a shelf.

I agree it has to be one or the other and the fact that there are already some very nice minis out to supports this 28mm. All of your reasoning on Roleplay and Collector crossover is sound but 15mm and 28mm provide different things I would choose 28mm but I still think it is worth exploring 15mm in our discusions.

 

[Winter Wolf]

To be fair Matt has already said that it will likely be 28mm scale so all the 15mm talk is probably unlikely.

I was a bit disapointed the the character packs didn't have three different versions of each of the playable chars as this would have put us well on the way to a number of forces.

Do the Mongoose guys have anything to add.......

 

[columbob]

I was a bit disapointed the the character packs didn't have three different versions of each of the playable chars as this would have put us well on the way to a number of forces.

Same here, I really thought we would be seeing a three-pack of each of the classes in the main book.