Imperial Navy Question

[MasterGwydion]

Honestly, I've lost track of what your point even is now.

All I pointed out is that under Mongoose High Guard (but unlike Classic Traveller) non-starships can use the space saved on not having jump drives and fuel to install more weaponry, in the form of bays.

Clearly, very small ships that are up against other small ships are more likely to rely on turrets.

I guessing that is the main job of smaller ships. To take out ships of roughly their class. So, if you are relying on turrets, you don't have hardpoints for the missiles. Which takes Us back to the original point of, unless they are Monitors, there is really not much advantage to SDBs over jump-capable ships, except in price.

 

[rinku]

MGT2e High Guard seems to disagree. This version of the Dragon got an upgrade from it's old CT pair of triple missile turrets to a small missile bay plus a point defense laser battery. The triple lasers become particle barbettes.

A patrol cruiser is a comparable sized jump capable ship. Which is handy, since its only real option is to jump away if it runs into one of those SDBs.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I guessing that is the main job of smaller ships. To take out ships of roughly their class. So, if you are relying on turrets, you don't have hardpoints for the missiles. Which takes Us back to the original point of, unless they are Monitors, there is really not much advantage to SDBs over jump-capable ships, except in price.

For the same price, you get more killing power. That really is how it works.

 

[ottarrus]

It should be remembered that everything in CT Traders and Gunboats was out of LBB Book 2, and that the conversion of those ships to LBB 5 High Guard was imperfect. High Guard wasn't intended for adventure level ships anyway, it was meant for wargaming purposes and was meant for ships completely out of the league of player characters. Later on it became the default ship design system because so many of us thought that the change from Book 2 to Book 5 was seamless... which it most assuredly was not.

This is why a lot of us are advocating for a 'High Guard 3.0' which WILL be seamless from 10-ton lifeboats all the way up to Tigresses.

 

[Terry Mixon]

It should be remembered that everything in CT Traders and Gunboats was out of LBB Book 2, and that the conversion of those ships to LBB 5 High Guard was imperfect. High Guard wasn't intended for adventure level ships anyway, it was meant for wargaming purposes and was meant for ships completely out of the league of player characters. Later on it became the default ship design system because so many of us thought that the change from Book 2 to Book 5 was seamless... which it most assuredly was not.

This is why a lot of us are advocating for a 'High Guard 3.0' which WILL be seamless from 10-ton lifeboats all the way up to Tigresses.

I love your optimism, but to quote the Dread Pirate Roberts—Wesley—get used to disappointment.

 

[boggo2300]

I love your optimism, but to quote the Dread Pirate Roberts—Wesley—get used to disappointment.

He was Welsh, and therefore a bit of an expert on disapointment...

 

[rinku]

It's also worth remembering that Book 5 did not actually replace Book 2. It's explicit in High Guard that you should continue to use the civilian ship construction system (with its standard hulls and standard model drives and so forth) for those sorts of ship.

It wasn't until MegaTraveller that an attempt was made to integrate them.

 

[boggo2300]

It's also worth remembering that Book 5 did not actually replace Book 2. It's explicit in High Guard that you should continue to use the civilian ship construction system (with its standard hulls and standard model drives and so forth) for those sorts of ship.

It wasn't until MegaTraveller that an attempt was made to integrate them.

yeah personally I only used High Guard for Military ships right up until MT

 

[Condottiere]

Generally speaking, defence should make the cost of attacking unacceptably high.

Hopefully, by making the defence affordable.

Design rules ensure that for an equivalent tonnage, a non starship should be able to easily defeat a starship.

But, you can't defend everywhere, without leaving weak spots.

 

[ottarrus]

Generally speaking, defence should make the cost of attacking unacceptably high.

Hopefully, by making the defence affordable.

Design rules ensure that for an equivalent tonnage, a non starship should be able to easily defeat a starship.

But, you can't defend everywhere, without leaving weak spots.

Every military vehicle designer [air, ground, sea, or space] is faced with the same problem:
Firepower vs. Mobility vs. Protection vs. Money and whenever you up one you take away from the other three. This is where the creativity in the design comes in... designers have to find a balance between mission role, survivability and budget. It's always possible to create the greatest fighting vehicle ever. The trick is being able to afford enough of them to field them in large groups. Because of his idiotic design history, I've taken to calling this the '[Ferdinand] Porsche Paradox'.
In current procurement, a Department or Ministry of Defense releases a tender for a ship with 'x' minimum performance and 'y' function requirement [an ASW destroyer for example]. What that tender does NOT say is 'this project will up this much of the procurement budget for fiscal year xxxx'. Most of the time, the agency simply doesn't know what the final figure of their budget is going to be until their executive branch tells them; they can estimate and let a tender based on that estimation, but they have no solid figures until the tax revenues come in.
I think it would be fun to have a Design a Cruiser Contest where it isn't a contest of how big a gun it has but how effective a ship it is from all four standpoints... the best 'bang for the buck'. The hitch is that the contest administrator would have a top price that is unknown to the entrants and the entries would have to squeeze their credits to find the best balance between capability and budget.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Since CT HG keeps getting mentioned, I posted a thread about how TL changes ship capability, here is a truncated version.
At TL15
2% bridge
17% m-6
16% AF#15
14% pp+pp fuel
Total 49%
j1 12%, j2 23% j3 34% j4 45%
still need weapons, increased power plant (1 factor is 2% with fuel) for weapons, crew.

TL14
2% bridge
17% m-6
15% AF#14
21% pp+pp fuel
Total 55%
j1 12%, j2 23% j3 34% j4 45%
still need weapons, increased power plant (1 factor is 3% with fuel) for weapons, crew.

TL13
2% bridge
17% m-6
28% AF#13
21% pp+pp fuel
Total 68%
j1 12%, j2 23% j3 34% j4 45%
still need weapons, increased power plant (1 factor is 3% with fuel) for weapons, crew.

TL12
2% bridge
17% m-6
26% AF#12
28% pp+pp fuel
Total 73%
j1 12%, j2 23% j3 34% j4 45%
still need weapons, increased power plant (1 factor is 3% with fuel) for weapons, crew.

 

[MasterGwydion]

For the same price, you get more killing power. That really is how it works.

They can be taken out by a few fighters. Missiles are the only way it really gets you more killing power, but without losing the ability to hit smaller ships. Otherwise, you switch to bay weapons and you take penalties shooting at ships of the same size as your ships.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Why would anyone less than TL13 bother with anything but meson gun light bays? Even at TL13+ meson screens are not all that common on anything but capital ships.

 

[Condottiere]

One assumes budgetary constraints, and availability.

 

[MasterGwydion]

One assumes budgetary constraints, and availability.

Others assume that militaries will always want weapons that their enemies cannot defend against, no matter the price. Look what happened to the Vilani when the Terrans got meson weapons and the Vilani did not. (meson weapons and j-3)

 

[boggo2300]

Why would anyone less than TL13 bother with anything but meson gun light bays? Even at TL13+ meson screens are not all that common on anything but capital ships.

Being Vilani?

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Sigtrygg]

Being Vilani?

Perhaps the High Guard author was unaware of setting history/canon, or perhaps Mongoose is in the process of retconing the whole ISW era... who knows.