Imperial Law???

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MasterGwydion

Cosmic Mongoose
Is murder against Imperial Law? This is a way more complicated thought in My head, but it boils down to the low berth thread I was just reading. Based on the existence Low Berth Lottery, it looks like criminally negligent homicide isn't against Imperial Law. That got Me thinking what else is and isn't against Imperial Law. I know on planets, Planetary Law applies and most of the likely do have laws against the taking of sentient lives, but in the Starport or in Space? That I am less clear on.
 
You're using criminal negligence incorrectly. People die undergoing or as a consequence of complications of relatively routine medical procedures (including anesthesia). Rarely are such deaths considered murder, and for the most part only in the most negligent or fraudulent circumstances. Civil liability has a lower burden of proof, but even then malpractice suits aren't all that common otherwise medicine would be a speculative profession as opposed to a stable career option. The waiver one signs for low berth is, legally speaking, an assumption of risk not a blanket license to be "murdered."

It seems Imperial Law is very much in line with at minimum what a lot of societies call common law, probably enhanced for interplanetary and intersector businesses and property rights.
 
People who go in low berth have to sign a waver to not sue the ship or it's owners in the event of their demise either during the journey or during the revival procedure :)
 
Midnightplat said:
You're using criminal negligence incorrectly. People die undergoing or as a consequence of complications of relatively routine medical procedures (including anesthesia). Rarely are such deaths considered murder, and for the most part only in the most negligent or fraudulent circumstances. Civil liability has a lower burden of proof, but even then malpractice suits aren't all that common otherwise medicine would be a speculative profession as opposed to a stable career option. The waiver one signs for low berth is, legally speaking, an assumption of risk not a blanket license to be "murdered."

It seems Imperial Law is very much in line with at minimum what a lot of societies call common law, probably enhanced for interplanetary and intersector businesses and property rights.
Click to expand...
Just a nitpick. In today's society suing for malpractice is incredibly common. Just look at the increase in medical malpractice insurance these days. Doctors are quitting private practice as they can't afford the premiums.

Take this with a grain (or dumptruck) of salt, I got in on Wikipedia.

"Criminal negligence is an offence in criminal law that involves a breach of an objective standard of behaviour expected of a defendant1. It refers to a defendant who acts in disregard of a serious risk of harm that a reasonable person in the same situation would have perceived2. Criminal negligence is conduct which is such a departure from what would be that of an ordinary prudent or careful person in the same circumstance as to be incompatible with a proper regard for human life or an indifference to consequences3. It is the failure to use reasonable care to avoid consequences that threaten or harm the safety of the public and that are the foreseeable outcome of acting in a particular manner4."

PS- The Captain running a Low Berth Lottery, is a textbook example of "being indifferent to the consequences" of improper care with the use of low berths. Moreso, since it has been proven to be a very small expense to make it 100% safe. It's kind of like posting a video of your crime on Facebook...lol...
 
MasterGwydion said:
Is murder against Imperial Law? This is a way more complicated thought in My head, but it boils down to the low berth thread I was just reading. Based on the existence Low Berth Lottery, it looks like criminally negligent homicide isn't against Imperial Law. That got Me thinking what else is and isn't against Imperial Law. I know on planets, Planetary Law applies and most of the likely do have laws against the taking of sentient lives, but in the Starport or in Space? That I am less clear on.
Click to expand...

Yes, murder is illegal under Imperial High Law but since 99.999% of them occur within 10 diameter limit of local jurisdiction, the Imperium doesn't usually get involved. And there is a lot of gray area even there:
- Imperial Rules of War violations also almost always occur within local jurisdictions, but when the Imperium decides to get involved they're all-in;
- The Low Lottery is a custom of spaceflight that goes back to the Rule of Man, if not earlier. It was sort of 'grandfathered in' when the Imperium was formed. There have been circumstances where the Imperium has gotten involved, such as if a ship has too many people die in the berths, but that is rare.
- If a murder occurs within the mutual jurisdiction area between 10 and 100 diameters, it really depends on who catches the case OR if the local jurisdiction calls in for IMOJ support.
 
There's probably a sealed blackbox that monitors conditions in and around the freezer, and presumably, any misadventures, sicknesses and deaths need to be reported at the next starport, so the authorities will do a quick scan of said box.

Also, only take passage onboard a starship with a certified doctor, since they usually need to take an oath.
 
Condottiere said:
There's probably a sealed blackbox that monitors conditions in and around the freezer, and presumably, any misadventures, sicknesses and deaths need to be reported at the next starport, so the authorities will do a quick scan of said box.

Also, only take passage onboard a starship with a certified doctor, since they usually need to take an oath.
Click to expand...
Well, no doubt there is a computer for the process. IMTU, it would be completely separate from the ship's main computer to prevent tampering.
That would CERTAINLY contain logs of names, dates, and incidents. In addition, any deaths aboard [or any births, for that matter] are supposed to entered into the ship's log as a matter of long standing tradition.
 
My favorite part of Imperial Law is the Warrant of Restoration . The best part of that is Article VI and the prohibition of slavery.
The Warrent of Restoration shows where the 3rd Imperium draws the line and how it governs broadly but not deeply.
 
Possibly the Imperium itself directly prohibits murder only in space ("...and to bring the Rule of Law to the spaces between worlds..."), while leaving its prohibition on member worlds to member worlds. So the situation would be that it's effectively illegal everywhere, but without copying the US model of major crimes being against both state and federal law. Prosecution and punishment might vary widely between worlds.

Then I'd expect some apparatus for reporting, investigating and prosecuting serious crimes in space, but it need not be cops, judges and juries exactly as we know them. Could be an independent and smaller Bureau, could be an office internal to the Navy.

Googling it (gamings going to put me on a list if it hasn't already) I see murder is already illegal even in international waters, but we got there by countries claiming jurisdiction over anyone who's either an offender and their own national, or an offender against one of their own nationals, regardless of their home country. One article says reporting is a bigger problem than jurisdictional arguments, but it's not the case that it's not prohibited.

You could do something with that in the Imperium - yes it's illegal, but if no one reports it no investigation kicks off. (Could be an adventure hook there, a patron's friend/relative/lover hasn't come back from Belting and no one's talking, and they need one solid lead to get the authorities involved.) Or, unrelated, I was picturing Admiralty Courts with the power to try, sentence and execute, but possibly the Imperium has an office that investigates and arrests but refers offenders to member worlds for trial.

Taking low berths as a separate topic, there could be some sort of mutual aid society that registers passengers' departure, ship and intended arrival to see who makes it. If a ship or line has too many deaths they publicize it, and if passengers start disappearing without being reported as deceased they make even more of a fuss.

Almost like some sort of... Traveller's Aid Society, but minus the 1 million credit buy-in and upscale hotels, probably run by volunteers, or a couple of monks living off donations.
 
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Saladman said:
Possibly the Imperium itself directly prohibits murder only in space ("...and to bring the Rule of Law to the spaces between worlds..."), while leaving its prohibition on member worlds to member worlds. So the situation would be that it's effectively illegal everywhere, but without copying the US model of major crimes being against both state and federal law. Prosecution and punishment might vary widely between worlds.

Then I'd expect some apparatus for reporting, investigating and prosecuting serious crimes in space, but it need not be cops, judges and juries exactly as we know them. Could be an independent and smaller Bureau, could be an office internal to the Navy.

Googling it (gamings going to put me on a list if it hasn't already) I see murder is already illegal even in international waters, but we got there by countries claiming jurisdiction over anyone who's either an offender and their own national, or an offender against one of their own nationals, regardless of their home country. One article says reporting is a bigger problem than jurisdictional arguments, but it's not the case that it's not prohibited.

You could do something with that in the Imperium - yes it's illegal, but if no one reports it no investigation kicks off. (Could be an adventure hook there, a patron's friend/relative/lover hasn't come back from Belting and no one's talking, and they need one solid lead to get the authorities involved.) Or, unrelated, I was picturing Admiralty Courts with the power to try, sentence and execute, but possibly the Imperium has an office that investigates and arrests but refers offenders to member worlds for trial.

Taking low berths as a separate topic, there could be some sort of mutual aid society that registers passengers' departure, ship and intended arrival to see who makes it. If a ship or line has too many deaths they publicize it, and if passengers start disappearing without being reported as deceased they make even more of a fuss.

Almost like some sort of... Traveller's Aid Society, but minus the 1 million credit buy-in and upscale hotels, probably run by volunteers, or a couple of monks living off donations.
Click to expand...
Murder is illegal EVERYWHERE in Imperial space. Most of the time, that charge is more than adequately handled by local judicial systems. But there are certain situations where the Imperium does get involved, superseding local authorities. These might include:
- Murder in a starport
- Violations of the Imperial Rules of War
- Murders occurring in the zone of shared jurisdiction
- Murder of an Imperial noble or other authority [murder an IMOJ officer, yep, the 3-I is gonna be on the job]
- Murder of Imperial military personnel
And so forth.
 
Crimes against the Imperium('s interests).

But generally speaking, killing a sophont being tends to get prosecuted, all things being equal.

If it's outside planetary jurisdiction, suspect(s) would be collected by Imperium agents, or bounty hunters.
 
Sigtrygg said:
And they completely ignore it by 1105.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say the Imperium *completely* ignores it. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
A good example is the situation on Craw/Glisten as described in JTAS 10-11 by Loren Wiseman [RIP]. The IISS screwed up and missed a sentient race in its survey. The settlers made them sepoy labor and a subsector wide corp got involved.
But chattel slavery, the abject ownership of one sophont by another, is illegal and will be prosecuted if it occurs in areas of Imperial jurisdiction.
However, there are many kinds of slavery... mandatory labor by cults or feudal lords, for example... that the Imperium leaves to local jurisdiction.
Why? Because it is simply impossible for the Imperium to effectively police 11,000 worlds and 22,000 cultures and 33,000 religions. It just doesn't have the manpower or the money and, most importantly, it doesn't have the mandate. The Warrant for Restoration [the Basic Law of Imperial jurisprudence] cedes local affairs to local control. Without that stipulation, Cleon's dream of empire wouldn't have gotten out of Core Sector.
 
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Condottiere said:
Crimes against the Imperium('s interests).

But generally speaking, killing a sophont being tends to get prosecuted, all things being equal.

If it's outside planetary jurisdiction, suspect(s) would be collected by Imperium agents, or bounty hunters.
Click to expand...

But I think it's fair to say that 'the Imperium's interests' are in the best interests of the majority of Imperial citizens.
Murder is bad for everyone. Stealing is bad for everyone. All sophonts generally agree on that, so the Imperium takes an interest when the local jurisdiction is ineffective.
Obviously there's way more to it than that, but that is the basic idea.
 
Condottiere said:
A dead sophont being is someone who stops paying taxes, income or sales.
Click to expand...
But remember, the Imperium doesn't tax sophonts directly. They tax planets [based on GDP and population] and megacorps. Nobody in the Imperium gets a W2 saying how much the Emperor withheld from them every year. And the worlds that get the most benefit from those taxes, the High Pop/High Tech worlds, are the ones taxed the most.
 
The article "High Justice" in the original GDW JTAS number 14 "Laws and Lawbreakers" had this to say:
"Laws and justice exist on three levels within the Imperium.
1. The low justice of planetary and local authorities that governs everything from homicide to spitting on the sidewalk.
2. The middle justice of the subsectors..... "
 
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