The Imperium and Dystopian Worlds

[ottarrus]

OK, I'm moving the discussion from 'Cyberpunk and Traveller' because it seems to have formed its own discussion.

I'm seeing a lot of 'the Imperium doesn't care' and I can see your points. Nobody is 'wrong' about how they see things, YTUMV and all that. There has been a lot of sidebar discussion in several threads about the Imperium and the disparity in wealth and prosperity among its citizens and I thought to just go ahead an open a discussion about that.
This top post is how I see things, YTUMV. Let me also suggest that we keep things to what Mongoose has published [MgT 1 & 2 eds] because earlier editions are nearly 50 years old, While they set the foundation of what we're talking about, I don't see a lot of point in discussing the foundation when it's the roof we're worried about

So, how I see the Imperium and Society:
1. Assets in the Traveller Universe travel 'Pony Express' style. News, resources, authorizations, and actual material good only move at the speed of courier bringing them.
2. It takes almost a year to go from Regina to Capital at J-4. Entire wars have been resolved on-scene before the Emperor can be informed of them, develop a strategy for them, and the orders sent to those on-scene commanders.
3. For all the hundreds of trillions of credits the Imperium takes in every year, it still can't afford to effectively control all the world governments in Core Sector, much less the Spinward Marches or Ley Sectors.
4. My definition of 'effective control':
- formulate a plan of positive social change to benefit the most people while respecting the cultures and history of 11,000 worlds - - that's eleven thousand different plans;
- introduce that change with trustworthy officers/agents/overseers without causing a war or rebellion;
- police the process of change in a respectful and lawful way;
- effectively garrison those worlds where the process of change is difficult or bloody [and that WILL happen; any process of change is gonna piss somebody off no matter how gentle].

Ergo, if the Imperium cannot fiscally afford to 'reconstruct' [yes, as a historian I use that term quite deliberately] every single world within its borders, it must offer some benefit or else it has no purpose at all, right?
The way I see it is that the Imperium offers three things: peace, technological uplift, and greater prosperity through trade and secure communications.
Let's be clear about a few things:
- Most citizens of the Imperium actually don't care a fig about the Imperium. Most citizens never leave their home world. Most never visit the starport. Most never have exposure to a culture from off world. Oh, people are aware of the Imperium... mass media and the occasional traveling museum exhibit sees to that... but if they were to rank their loyalties they would rank them like you and I would -- my family, my friends, my home region, my country. I have European friends and I have never heard one of them say 'I'm loyal to NATO' or 'I'm loyal to the EU'. By extension, the average Imperial citizen sees 'the Imperium' as a distant thing, something of no more importance in their daily life than NATO is to an Italian going to work at 0600 every day.
- The Third Imperium only has real influence on the average individual's life once they leave orbit. Once you begin life as a Traveller, the laws, customs, and effects of Imperial government become FAR more important.
- In regards to interstellar travel, I don't know where anyone ever got the idea that the most common way to travel was low berth. Low berth is cheapest way to travel, but it is dangerous and those risks are CLEARLY stated in the insurance boilerplate. And that boilerplate comes down to 'you can't blame us if you go to sleep and don't wake up again'. Even the Imperial military does not force someone into the Frozen Watch, where they're kept on ice for an entire term. In published deck plans and scenarios troops may be frozen for transit from base to deployment zone, but even then the Imperium pays off on their muster out benefits as 'insurance' if something goes wrong.
- Most sane Travellers travel warm, Middle Passage most of the time and High Passage if they can afford it.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The thing is they changed the nature of the Imperium...
or did they?

First off though I don't think the various canonical descriptions of the core sector make any sense.
In my view the core sector should have much more direct Imperial rule of planets.

I am of the opinion that the Marches were the frontier sectors of the Imperium, each being the furthest sector from the core sector. I know we got the Spinward Marches but what about the other galactic cardinal points?

Originally the Spinward Marches were a frontier, later we would learn they have been settled for over a thousand years.

We get a snippet of what the core worlds are like from the Forboldn project library data entry, but it was never built on. We learned of civilian shipping in the core sectors using drop tanks, and the proposal to build a drop tank enabled jump 6 communication system thanks to TAS news items, but they were never revisited.

It is in the early adventures where the nature of the Imperium is revealed, something the T4 crowd would try to undo with their Imperial Charter declarations.
Political prisoners - check
Imprisonment without trial - yup
Political opponents disappeared - Duke Norris did this and yet no one wants to remember
Kidnapping - sure
Experimentation on sophonts against their will - no problem
Slavery - forbidden so we will dish=guise it as something else
Corruption, Megacorporations, authoritarian totalitarian monarchy.

 

[Condottiere]

It's not something I've ever studied, but if I had to guess, the core subsectors worlds would look and function something like Westworld.

 

[ottarrus]

The thing is they changed the nature of the Imperium...
or did they?

First off though I don't think the various canonical descriptions of the core sector make any sense.
In my view the core sector should have much more direct Imperial rule of planets.

I am of the opinion that the Marches were the frontier sectors of the Imperium, each being the furthest sector from the core sector. I know we got the Spinward Marches but what about the other galactic cardinal points?

Originally the Spinward Marches were a frontier, later we would learn they have been settled for over a thousand years.

We get a snippet of what the core worlds are like from the Forboldn project library data entry, but it was never built on. We learned of civilian shipping in the core sectors using drop tanks, and the proposal to build a drop tank enabled jump 6 communication system thanks to TAS news items, but they were never revisited.

It is in the early adventures where the nature of the Imperium is revealed, something the T4 crowd would try to undo with their Imperial Charter declarations.
Political prisoners - check
Imprisonment without trial - yup
Political opponents disappeared - Duke Norris did this and yet no one wants to remember
Kidnapping - sure
Experimentation on sophonts against their will - no problem
Slavery - forbidden so we will dish=guise it as something else
Corruption, Megacorporations, authoritarian totalitarian monarch

Now, I'm not picking at you, Sigg, but I see some flaws in your argument. Nothing personal intended whatsoever.

Name one perfect society that we know actually existed and had a population over 1 million people. I'll wait.
The cold blunt fact is that a society wherein all citizens are equal participants, gain proportional prosperity for their work, have an informed and equal say in policy decisions, and wherein there is no disenfranchisement or disaffection has never existed and can't ever exist. Human beings are simply too competitive and conflict oriented to allow such a 'utopian hellscape' to exist. And every attempt to try to make one ended up like Stalinist Russia.
Let me be absolutely clear about my beliefs here:
-- There is no such thing as 'social justice' because there will always be a percentage of society who are poor, disaffected, disenfranchised and angry. And it has been that way ever since humanity developed agriculture 8000 years ago. The concept of 'social justice', while laudable, is also impossible. Even Star Trek's Federation pisses some of its own citizens off. --

All the elements of the Imperium that you mention are the dirty underside... the parts that 'troubleshooters for hire' [aka player characters] see. For most citizens of the Imperium life is as boring as making widgets at a factory in New Jersey is today. Most Imperial citizens live their entire lives with steady work, food, shelter, and other basic necessities because of the benefits I listed that the Imperial system provides. My theory is that those benefits are all the Imperium can do without interfering with the internal government of almost every single world within its borders.

 

[ottarrus]

It's not something I've ever studied, but if I had to guess, the core subsectors worlds would look and function something like Westworld.

They don't.
Take a look at MgT2e's The Third Imperium. It details Core Sector.

 

[Sigtrygg]

That's just one person's take on it, and while I like it and consider to be a good book I find myself disagreeing with much of it compared with how I view the Core sectors of the Imperium. The Third Imperium described these days very much stems from the post fifth frontier war The Imperium are the white hat yanks in space, rather than the shades of gray in the early supplements, adventures and news bulletins.

 

[Vormaerin]

"The world is pretty good, but not perfect" and "this is dystopian hellhole" are just perspectives on the same data set. Particularly since we have no information on how many people are "slipping through the cracks" or just how far they slip. It doesn't have to be parody levels of dystopia like 40k to be pretty awful.

The reality is that the Imperium has generally been made stronger, more effective, and generally nicer as time goes on. You may like that, you may not. You may not even care what it used to be like.

 

[Arkathan]

If you want to examine a dystopian hellhole, I present current day Chicago, New York and Baltimore.
Rampant crime, rampant corruption, anyone with enough influence and money, but not enough of each to be in charge of the corruption, is fleeing. Those who are left behind spiral in the decay. Establishment of no-go zones... and the public transportation systems are included in the no-go zones...
If you want to do deep dives into dystopia, these petri dishes are full of nasty strains.

 

[paltrysum]

Here's a counterargument to more centralized control in the Core: the Imperial model is distributed control. Wouldn't you want to exemplify that in your capital sector? The UWPs in Core bear that narrative out in my opinion.

 

[G'Naakbusters]

One of the major points in the setting's favour is that the factions work on internal logic rather than meeting external expectations. They're all self-justifying. They're richly multifaceted, they can be viewed in any number of ways depending on what's emphasised and the perspectives taken; even without getting into "my Traveller" territory, any faction can take on a number of shapes without changing anything. Contradictory is also complimentary. The factions have character in the truest sense.

How do you hold together a Human society (or community of societies) across vast distances, vaster than any previous both in absolute and (more importantly) travel and communication terms? Given how interdependent so many worlds are, they believe they need an answer. There has to be an interstellar order or system of some reliable kind.

Put the most simply -- reduced to the smallest kernel around which the whole of the faction wraps -- the Zhodani have chosen "mental conditioning"; the Solomani have chosen "national pride", and the Imperials have (naturally) chosen "empire".

Each of these has benefits and obvious pitfalls, naturally.

 

[ottarrus]

Put the most simply -- reduced to the smallest kernel around which the whole of the faction wraps -- the Zhodani have chosen "mental conditioning"; the Solomani have chosen "national pride", and the Imperials have (naturally) chosen "empire".

Each of these has benefits and obvious pitfalls, naturally.

I think the difference between the Third Imperium and Ziru Sirka and Rule of Man is important in this context.
The Ziru Sirka required ONE societal vision, ONE set of ethics, and rigid compliance with both. It did not have the flexibility to allow for social mobility, technological uplift, or any other form of change and that rigidity ended up being brittleness.
The RoM embraced change, but only in the sense of THEIR changes. The virtues they extolled from their Terran origins could not be extended over such a large expanse as the First Imperium's territory and they absolutely refused to cut loose any territory they'd conquered.
I think the Third Imperium would have looked a Hell of a lot different if the RoM had cut itself in half, allowing some kind of Coreward Vilani rump state to form. Perhaps the Long Night would have still happened, but I think they would have had a far better chance if they'd had only half the territory to administer.
Last thing... the Solomani don't use 'national pride' as their guiding method of control. They use 'racial exclusivity', aka racism. This current trend of 'oh the Solomani aren't all that bad' is nonsense. The Sollies treatment of 'prindig' labor, 'mixed race' Humaniti, and their own genetic uplifts says everything about The Cause that anyone needs to know.
And I don't say that as an Imperial fanboy. I say that as a historian who has studied race relations in the US extensively. The Imperium has very significant flaws, some of which have been listed. But I do object to sugar-coating the Solomani's institution of second-and third-class citizenship based on race and species.

 

[G'Naakbusters]

Last thing... the Solomani don't use 'national pride' as their guiding method of control. They use 'racial exclusivity', aka racism.

I disagree; I would say that racial exclusivity is merely one of the means by which a concept of a unified national identity can be created.

Exclusion in various forms is definitely part and parcel of the process; of course it is, a defined "us" has to have a collective "not us" to be meaningful. Exactly who gets placed outside depends on how the unifying national identity is constructed. When I say "national pride", the obvious question that arises is what we mean by "nation". How is a "nation" defined? People with a shared history? An ideological or cultural grounding in a shared experience? A genetic basis, what we might call an ethnicity, a race? A combination of these? I mean, if you're an historian you would be the first to note that a "nation" can base itself in any combination of linguistics, genetics, geographical origin, political constitution, cultural tradition etc.

That's what the Solomani are -- an argument over the form a "nation" takes.

The "Solomani Movement" is an attempt to construct (they would probably say, "reclaim") a "Solomani" nation as distinct from the multi-national mass of the Imperium. Partly that's a means to distance themselves politically from the nobility-megacorporate system, and partly (possibly more importantly) it's an assertion of the classic desire for identity that defines Humans as much as charisma defines Vargr or land-hunger defines male Aslan. That uneasy balance of subordination to a shared identity paired with pride and esteem at standing out -- "we are We, and thus Good. I am of We, thus I am Good". One of the pitfalls of which, naturally, is the tendency to pair it with "others are Not Us, and thus Bad (or at least Not as Good)". Hence the streaks of chauvinism, racism, etc. that manifest through much of Solomani society -- a realistic consequence of their nation-building approach.

When it comes to defining the national identity that holds their interstellar society together -- whether it's the Party, the Cause, the Movement (these different terms exist for a reason, they all imply different things, because there's no actual agreement on what Solomani *are*) -- the self-proclaimed Solomani people have a range of ideas. The various factions and strains of the Solomani have different answers and different approaches. Ranging from "anyone with heritage stretching back to Terra" through "those with particular political beliefs/cultural background" to "only humans of the right genetic makeup". Ranging also from so broad that practically half of interstellar society could be Solomani (all Humans, Vargr, Dolphins, even Vegans for historical reasons) to so exclusive and intolerant that any Human not fitting particularly "pure" genetic lineage isn't allowed -- "you have 1/8th Vilani blood. Impure! Outsider!!"

Like I said, it contrasts with the other two major Human states, who have chosen not to try constructing a nation-myth but have gone in for "feudal empire" and "mental conditioning" as their controlling mechanism. The Imperium being nationally and culturally diverse, accepting everyone so long as they agree to fit within the relatively loose framework of Imperial High Law and the feudal allegiance system; the Zhodani avoiding the whole "comfortable identity" business entirely by just straight-up using psionics to *construct* rather than chase the Contented Human Sense of Self.

EDIT: For that matter, minor races and smaller empires among Humaniti have their own approaches to holding a massive, distributed Human society together, from the Geonee's double-whammy of "we are the Ancients actually" and "everything is owned by the patriarch"; through the Yileans' "Evil Vargr will Huff and will Puff and will Blow Our House Down"; to the Suerrat and Luriani having a flexible sense of distributed family and a willingness to be very inclusive in their intimacy.

 

[Condottiere]

Think People's Republic of China, a combination of both ideology and tribalism, in this case, supertribalism.

Internally, interest groups and cliques.

 

[Arkathan]

I say that as a historian who has studied race relations in the US extensively.

The problem with applying US racism to the Solomani is that racism has been predominant in one particular mindset, but that mindset has morphed over time. Or not, depending on your view of the new illegal alien slave class.
Slavery dominated the racism of old. Recently, as the remnants of racism for dominance began to fade and race relations improved, a new infection spread. Like a certain central European power that rejected the Marxist reliance on class warfare, Socialists in the US decided to use race as a wedge. Identity politics, victim culture, the feminist movement allying with Johnson to use welfare incentives to chase men out of impoverished homes...
Both that old European polity and the left in the United States relied/rely on Nietzsche's Slave Morality. This requires inventing an oppressor for the victim to hate, and then justifies crimes against that oppressor in the name of the underdog getting even, when in fact, it was the poor decision making skills, encouraged and facilitated by the very people pushing the victim narrative, that caused the lowered outcomes.
I do not see shades of Nietzsche in the Solomani, nor do I get the slavery vibe of the 1850's. Instead I see the regressive progressiveness of the early 1900's in the Solomani. That included Eugenics and uninformed experimentation on "lesser" peoples.

 

[G'Naakbusters]

a combination of both ideology and tribalism, in this case, supertribalism.

Agreed.

Traveller is good at this stuff; the pitfalls all follow logically.

The Third Imperium is an empire. Its dark side therefore takes the form of repressing local cultures, punishing secession attempts (peaceful or otherwise) with brutality, and placing megacorporate/state profit over the little guy and the local. We see plenty of this alongside the positives and neutrals.

The Solomani are nationalists. Their dark side therefore takes the form of racial intolerance, chauvinism, genetic or cultural discrimination, and "strongman" politics. Again, we see plenty of this alongside the positive/neutrals.

The dark side of the Zhodani is that most of their people have no privacy or recognised right to it, and they've taken the notion of "dissent = mental illness" to an extreme rarely seen elsewhere, all the more frightening because their genuine claim to having built a greatly successful society means that on some twisted level, are they right?

 

[Condottiere]

The Imperium is an Empire, though it would easy to identify it with Rome, I don't think so.

I tend to think Persian.

The Zhodani seem Communistic.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The Solomani hypothesis, the Solomani movement and the Solomani master race concepts were all a product of Third Imperium citizens of Solomani descent within the Sylean Federation. Nothing at all to do with the Terrans and there descendants within Terran space.
The Vilani were institutionally racist, and the Third Imperium remains institutionally racist with their major/minor race distinction.

Terran actually uplifted animals to sophont status and granted them full rights.

 

[ottarrus]

The Solomani hypothesis, the Solomani movement and the Solomani master race concepts were all a product of Third Imperium citizens of Solomani descent within the Sylean Federation. Nothing at all to do with the Terrans and there descendants within Terran space.
The Vilani were institutionally racist, and the Third Imperium remains institutionally racist with their major/minor race distinction.

Terran actually uplifted animals to sophont status and granted them full rights.

Except that the only proponents of this false narrative now radiate out from Home/Aldebaran... It is the Solomani Confederation pushing that nonsense, no matter where the origin of it comes from.
As for Terrans setting their uplifts free, the Solomani Movement then tried to murder many of them [Ursa, Orcas] or degraded them to second class citizens [Dolphins, Apes].
Here's how I see the Solomani:
Prior to World War II, the study of genetics and inheritability of disease was inextricably linked with the pseudo-science of eugenics. Until 1945 and the liberation of the first concentration camps, notable scientists supported the idea of mandatory sterilization for the disabled, the concept that some 'races' were inherently superior to other 'races', and war was tonic and purgative for a civilization as it purged the stupid and weak from the gene pool. I didn't make those terms up. Those are taken as quotes from statements in the 30s made by Surgeon General of the US, the UK Minister of Health, and other public officials who should have known better.
In my view, the exclusionism and exclusivity of the Solomani Cause is just someone who still believes in eugenics even when confronted with the crimes of the Third Reich. Please note that I am NOT calling the Sollies Nazis. I am saying that they are deluded about the Cause as the Imperials are about their notions of honor and the whole 'blood will out' basis of their system. These are basic and inherent flaws in both systems.

 

[Condottiere]

It is identity politics at it's core, and the cause would appear to be an attempt to create internal unity, against external, possibly existential, threats.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Except that the only proponents of this false narrative now radiate out from Home/Aldebaran... It is the Solomani Confederation pushing that nonsense, no matter where the origin of it comes from.

The rulers of the Solomani Confederation are descended from the Syleans, they were granted rule over the Solomani to shut them up.
And remeber, everything you are told in the CT Alien Module Solomani is written by an unreliable Imperial propogandist. Sadly many of the fanbase often miss that nuance and so flesh them out as space Nazis.

I think the Mongoose take on them is pretty accurate.