Hot Rodding is dead?

[AnotherDilbert]

How did they increase the height of the cargo bay, but keep the exterior of the ship identical? One question.

The fuel tank is above the cargo bay. Less fuel, higher ceiling in the cargo bay.

Doesn't "non-standard hull" just refer to the ship not getting the 10% discount in price? Or has that definition changed over the editions? 2nd and 3rd questions. lol

No, LBB2 had heavily discounted standard hulls with strictly specified engineering sections.
Standard design is something different.



Engine is the max size of drives + power. Any unused space is wasted.

A 100-200 Dt non-standard hull cost MCr 20, so was to be avoided.
Basically you could only economically build the Scout at 100 Dt and the Free Trader at 200 Dt.
Interesting ships stated at 400 Dt...

 

[MasterGwydion]

The fuel tank is above the cargo bay. Less fuel, higher ceiling in the cargo bay.



No, LBB2 had heavily discounted standard hulls with strictly specified engineering sections.
Standard design is something different.

View attachment 1998

Engine is the max size of drives + power. Any unused space is wasted.

A 100-200 Dt non-standard hull cost MCr 20, so was to be avoided.
Basically you could only economically build the Scout at 100 Dt and the Free Trader at 200 Dt.
Interesting ships stated at 400 Dt...

That makes My brain hurt.

 

[Vormaerin]

The other way around:


The LBB2 Free Trader uses a standard hull, that can only accommodate J-1, M-1 drives.
The A2 Far Trader uses an expensive non-standard hull with a larger engineering section. You can make refit that with smaller drives, to make an A1, much more expensive than an LBB2 Free Trader.



Sure, that would be lovely. Hasn't happened in any Traveller edition I can remember...


I must admit, having the Far Trader described as a refit of the Free Trader, while the refit rules in the same book says that is impossible is a bit over the top.

You are misreading that entire section, I'm afraid. Bk 2 has the Type A Free Trader (what is now called the Beowulf class) in 1977. S7 (1980) introduces the Empress Marava class Far Trader, which is a completely different deck plan and hull shape. That reference at the end to a Free Trader variant is a Free Trader variant of the Empress Marava class. Notice that the paragraph includes this statement: "The A1 free trader is essentially identical in performance with the type A (from Book 2) but is otherwise similar to the A2."

So what we have at that point is the Type A (Beowulf class), the A1 Marava "Free Trader", and the A2 Marava Far Trader.

Pretty sure that the first appearance of the Hero class Far Trader using the Beowulf hull is GURPS Interstellar Wars.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

That makes My brain hurt.

Yes, that is my reaction to LBB2 too.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You are misreading that entire section, I'm afraid. Bk 2 has the Type A Free Trader (what is now called the Beowulf class) in 1977. S7 (1980) introduces the Empress Marava class Far Trader, which is a completely different deck plan and hull shape. That reference at the end to a Free Trader variant is a Free Trader variant of the Empress Marava class. Notice that the paragraph includes this statement: "The A1 free trader is essentially identical in performance with the type A (from Book 2) but is otherwise similar to the A2."

Yes, that is what I said?

You can't refit a A (LBB2) into an A2.
You can refit an A2 into an A1.
The A1 is similar stats as the A, but more expensive (MCr 54.5 vs MCr 37), and it wastes some engineering space, so it has fewer low berths (four vs twenty) and a slightly smaller hold (81 vs 82 Dt).

 

[Vormaerin]

No, because this is the Type A, which is the ship we have been talking about with the description saying it was regularly upgraded to a Far Trader ever since that version of Far Trader that was introduced by Loren Wiseman in GURPS Interstellar Wars was added to regular Traveller.


The S7 text refers to this other ship which started as a Far Trader, but has a Jump 1 variant. It has nothing to do with the ship we are talking about.

 

[Vormaerin]

The description of *this* Far Trader has not changed since it was introduced, as far as I am aware. It is not related to the ship in S7. It has always been described as an upgrade of the original Jump 1 Type A.
No one has ever claimed that you could refit a Beowulf into an Empress Marava.

 

[Vormaerin]

Ultimately, this entire problem results from the GURPS ship building rules being different than Classic Traveller's ship building rules. For whatever reason, Loren Wiseman made the IW version of the Type A be a Jump 2 ship, whereas the Classic Traveller version is a Jump 1 ship. This was subsequently reconciled by the description of the Hero class being a Far Trader upgrade when the IW Type A was added into regular Traveller. Despite this being a violation of the rules of non GURPS Traveller.

And to make matters worse, the J2 Hero got the A2 label and the Marava just became the Empress Marava class, adding even more confusion.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Ultimately, this entire problem results from the GURPS ship building rules being different than Classic Traveller's ship building rules. For whatever reason, Loren Wiseman made the IW version of the Type A be a Jump 2 ship, whereas the Classic Traveller version is a Jump 1 ship. This was subsequently reconciled by the description of the Hero class being a Far Trader upgrade when the IW Type A was added into regular Traveller. Despite this being a violation of the rules of non GURPS Traveller.

And to make matters worse, the J2 Hero got the A2 label and the Marava just became the Empress Marava class, adding even more confusion.

Now My brain really hurts! lol

 

[Vormaerin]

Yes, there's LOTS of problems in Traveller that result from versioning, especially between the Classic Traveller version of Charted Space and the Lorenverse (GURPS) version of Charted Space. GURPS Traveller has a lot of good supplements that people like, so they roll that stuff back into the main Traveller line and not all of it is actually compatible.

The answer is that the main Traveller line has always been uptight about engineering spaces and modifying them. The correct fix for this fiction vs rules conflict in this particular case would be to change the description of the J2 Hero class Trader to not say anything about engine changing.

As I mentioned before, I don't think that forcing people to get entirely new ships to upgrade is good gameplay design. But it is clearly the most consistent interpretation of how things are intended to work.

 

[Geir]

Not saying this is ideal, but you could squeeze an A1->A2 conversion in at TL14, if (big if) you consider the drives sort of the old way: a set 'engineering compartment' component using 17 tons. Then for 16.5 tons you could do:

		TL	Rating	Tons	MCr
M-Drive	Very Advanced Thrust 1 (energy efficient x 2)	11​	1​	2​	5​
J-Drive	High Technology Jump 2 (size reduction x 3)	14​	2​	10.5​	33.75​
Power Plant	Fusion (TL12)	14​	75​	4​	6.25​
	Very Advanced (size reduction x 2) power points (pp) = 75

Not cheap and you still have to dim the lights to jump. But no matter what, there's no way to reduce the jump drive from 15->10, so taken component by component, it can't be done. By these rules.

(Oh, and version changes... the yacht, always sort of an odd duck: Classic: J-1 but fuel for 2 jumps, TNE: J-4 (? - accidently ran into that while looking for something else), MgT: a crappy jump-1, once - always go for the safari ship instead...)

Realistically, it would probably be tough to mess with these components outside the constraints given for a major refit, but since it's a game and not a simulation of fake technology, the question does get back to: wouldn't it be more fun if we could do this?

 

[Condottiere]

Engineering has always had some form of a cap.

Tonnage availability implies an overall cap on tonnage installed.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Not saying this is ideal, but you could squeeze an A1->A2 conversion in at TL14, if (big if) you consider the drives sort of the old way: a set 'engineering compartment' component using 17 tons. Then for 16.5 tons you could do:

		TL	Rating	Tons	MCr
M-Drive	Very Advanced Thrust 1 (energy efficient x 2)	11​	1​	2​	5​
J-Drive	High Technology Jump 2 (size reduction x 3)	14​	2​	10.5​	33.75​
Power Plant	Fusion (TL12)	14​	75​	4​	6.25​
	Very Advanced (size reduction x 2) power points (pp) = 75

Not cheap and you still have to dim the lights to jump. But no matter what, there's no way to reduce the jump drive from 15->10, so taken component by component, it can't be done. By these rules.

(Oh, and version changes... the yacht, always sort of an odd duck: Classic: J-1 but fuel for 2 jumps, TNE: J-4 (? - accidently ran into that while looking for something else), MgT: a crappy jump-1, once - always go for the safari ship instead...)

Realistically, it would probably be tough to mess with these components outside the constraints given for a major refit, but since it's a game and not a simulation of fake technology, the question does get back to: wouldn't it be more fun if we could do this?

I look at it this way, if a shipyard can build a ship from scratch, then they damn well ought to be able to move a bulkhead or change absolutely anything else in a major refit.

Heck! In modern shipbuilding they can even change the size of the ships, adding or subtracting length.

This seems to Me to be a rule that was made up by a nerd in a basement who had never built anything more difficult than a desktop PC.

 

[OriginalCaruso]

I have some sympathy with the early authors who did not have the advantage of spreadsheets (or databases) to cross-reference data sources and ensure consistency. Collaboration wasn't easy back then

But... time have moved on and databases are far more accessible facilitating collaboration - if only the tables were readily available instead of being scraped out of PDFs

Seems to me a consistent re-write is out of the question which leaves the option of ignoring what we don't like

 

[MasterGwydion]

I have some sympathy with the early authors who did not have the advantage of spreadsheets (or databases) to cross-reference data sources and ensure consistency. Collaboration wasn't easy back then

But... time have moved on and databases are far more accessible facilitating collaboration - if only the tables were readily available and being scraped out of PDFs

Seems to me a consistent re-write is out of the question which leaves the option of ignoring what we don't like

Agreed. A lot of the original stuff was done without the benefit of computers. My issues tends more towards why We keep repeating the same mistakes edition after edition. Some changes that occur are wanted and needed, such as to make the rules consistent, internally at least. As an example, rules stating you can't do something that Canon clearly says that you can.

Any changes past that are open for debate.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The answer is the authors don't know every previous supplement, rulebook, adventure, rule system or periodical in sufficient detail to avoid the inconsistencies.
This is not a criticism, very few people have such an in depth knowledge of any topic.

What annoys me is when I open a new book or pdf and can spot the canon inconsistencies almost immediately.
Some are "retcons", some are Mandela effect, some are fanon made canon, some are just lack of research continuing errors from previous interpretations (such as cut and pasting GT Zhodani for the MgT2 Alien book without going back to the CT Zhodani module to check), some are fresh ideas.

 

[Geir]

I thought the live Astrogator thing was a Mandela effect that I suffered from until someone pointed out it was buried in the Hiver section of AoCSv2 (but whether Martin put it in as a result of a Mandela effect, I cannot guess). That PDF has a weird name, so I have trouble finding it. The book is actually in the proper bookshelf, so it's harder to find than the pile of material stacked next to the computer.

Between way too many books and a bunch of semi-organised pdfs, I have just about everything, but the amount of information and contradicting material makes it a challenge (small letter challenge, no obscure pun intended.) Actually, the wiki helps a lot since most canon-ish articles have references and then I can hunt down the reference. But I'm thankful for the Errata feedback here, because there are going to be mistakes, misprints, and errors, not to mention unremembered bits of 47 years of not-necessarily-consistent lore.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I thought the live Astrogator thing was a Mandela effect that I suffered from until someone pointed out it was buried in the Hiver section of AoCSv2 (but whether Martin put it in as a result of a Mandela effect, I cannot guess). That PDF has a weird name, so I have trouble finding it. The book is actually in the proper bookshelf, so it's harder to find than the pile of material stacked next to the computer.

Between way too many books and a bunch of semi-organised pdfs, I have just about everything, but the amount of information and contradicting material makes it a challenge (small letter challenge, no obscure pun intended.) Actually, the wiki helps a lot since most canon-ish articles have references and then I can hunt down the reference. But I'm thankful for the Errata feedback here, because there are going to be mistakes, misprints, and errors, not to mention unremembered bits of 47 years of not-necessarily-consistent lore.

I am always good for finding stupid things to add to the Errata that very few people actually care about. lol.

Also, Geir, regardless of any mistakes in your material, they are still high-quality products that you should be proud of. I love the work that you have done for Mongoose Traveller and I love your level of interaction here! Thank you and keep it up!

 

[Condottiere]

The Force is what gives an astrogator his insight. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The Force is what gives an astrogator his insight. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

Is it bad that this actually makes sense? *maybe I need to schedule a CAT scan* lol