Games workshop
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Bobby Hostile
Mongoose
I like the fact that Aman liked what he had to say so much, he posted it twice! :lol:
J/K Aman, often I do find what you say to be well thought out and easy to read. Forums are often filled with posters who have nothing to post that isn't inane, often insipid or the posts are filled with a street argot.
It's nice to see a regular poster who is articulate.
J/K Aman, often I do find what you say to be well thought out and easy to read. Forums are often filled with posters who have nothing to post that isn't inane, often insipid or the posts are filled with a street argot.
It's nice to see a regular poster who is articulate.
dyssnowman
Mongoose
Personally, it's the pricing of GW boggles my mind. I still remember and even still have some miniatures from their first plastic space marine boxed set. 30 marines for $20. Today, you get 10 for $40. The Land Raider and the Rhino are the same. The original Raider came two to a box, and the Rhino three to a box and I believe that they both ran about $20. All of these miniatures are of a much higher quality today, but of those three examples, the Rhino was in production the longest and to me really shows how they increased the prices. Starting at three for $20, the same model was selling for I believe $30 for one before they finally did the rescuplt. The only thing that changed in that time that I am aware of was including the accessories sprue. So that one sprue added roughly $23 to the price of one Rhino. Call me crazy, but that just doesn't add up in my book.
But you know, this is just my own beef with GW. The most important thing is for people to play what they enjoy. I am just glad that with SST there will be some variety added to the world of sci miniatures, not to mention a ruleset that makes you use your mind and think about what you are doing rather than just move, shoot, assault...
But you know, this is just my own beef with GW. The most important thing is for people to play what they enjoy. I am just glad that with SST there will be some variety added to the world of sci miniatures, not to mention a ruleset that makes you use your mind and think about what you are doing rather than just move, shoot, assault...
Aman said:
Last I heard the metals were still being cast in-house (the original Citadel Miniatures facility in the UK and a newer more recent one in the US), with the plastics being outsourced. I guess the weight of the metals (along with the relative cheapness of small production runs) makes it cheaper to do it as locally as possible.
Aman said:
@ aman, id have to disagree with you on that point. alot of the "kids" in my store, are looking for alternative GW models for 40k. i propsed that they try the SST range and they loved the idea cuz these kids whatched the TV show growing up. and outside the US, about 20-30 of my british freinds (cheers!
) who are older men, are sick of GW. they wish to find other games.
Danny
Mongoose
Yea, GW is just desperate, talking bout LOTR, many of my people got into it. but it was like a medium craze. And like what byram said. They all went out and i droped a line to SST and mongoose. And well they got hooked. Whatd you expect. Its a great book (reading it now..) animation and movie. Well number 2 just lost me.
cypherkk
Mongoose
I have been playing GW products since the early 90's. I have enjoyed many games and the hobby in its entirety. I have gone to tournaments even GW hosted and even placed a time or two. I have around 8 armies that I plan on decreasing that. I also play numerous of the specialist games and while I don't plan on buying anymore models I will prob. continue to play from time to time.
I don;t think GW is going to die from the release of SST. I think they have been rising their prices unecessarly and that thas detracted many patrons. However, in talking to many GW employees in the US, their goal is not masss market but a supposed elite gamer or hobbyist core. The models they produce are some of the finest currently in the market.
Currently they are expending a huge amount in order to grow withthe stores they are opening up accross the world, as it is said it takes money to make money. wether this strategy work or not is to be seen, but it is a particularly effective market growth in industrialized countries. In the long run it may be a good stategy.
It's not their prices that a pushing me away as excessive as they are. It is the lack of entertainment I find in the game. The rules have become to simple with one game blurring into another. THer is no real extrordinary events in the games anymore. I am honestly surprised I stayed in 3rd. ed so long (mind you I tried other games, I just couldn't find a crowd). Warzone and others. I can afford the miniature even I I don't believe the cost is worth the value anymore. I've stopped buying GW figures and games, but I may get into some of thier specialist games again, if the value comes back.
I plan on switching to SST as my primary game. I thing from what I read in the battle reports it sound to be a much more fluid and entertaining game, I certainly hope so.
I don;t think GW is going to die from the release of SST. I think they have been rising their prices unecessarly and that thas detracted many patrons. However, in talking to many GW employees in the US, their goal is not masss market but a supposed elite gamer or hobbyist core. The models they produce are some of the finest currently in the market.
Currently they are expending a huge amount in order to grow withthe stores they are opening up accross the world, as it is said it takes money to make money. wether this strategy work or not is to be seen, but it is a particularly effective market growth in industrialized countries. In the long run it may be a good stategy.
It's not their prices that a pushing me away as excessive as they are. It is the lack of entertainment I find in the game. The rules have become to simple with one game blurring into another. THer is no real extrordinary events in the games anymore. I am honestly surprised I stayed in 3rd. ed so long (mind you I tried other games, I just couldn't find a crowd). Warzone and others. I can afford the miniature even I I don't believe the cost is worth the value anymore. I've stopped buying GW figures and games, but I may get into some of thier specialist games again, if the value comes back.
I plan on switching to SST as my primary game. I thing from what I read in the battle reports it sound to be a much more fluid and entertaining game, I certainly hope so.
A
Anonymous
Guest
whoa, deja vu. didnt i just read this thread over on the warmachine forum? like many have alredy said 40k is just getting stale. SST here i come!
Godofthunder
Mongoose
I am going to stop playing 40K and Warhammer mainly because of the fact that they reinvent the rules every 5 years or so. They then force you to buy a new army book to keep current and then up the prices of the models. They have done this everytime a new version of the game comes out. I played Marines, Tau, Necron and Tyranids in 40K - now that 4th edtion is out I am going to have to buy 4 new army books to play the game. I think not!
I will just play the specialist games as they seem to not be updated as often and the rules are on the Net in any case.
Good luck to Mongoose and SST - hope the game takes off and it's seen on plenty of tables!
I will just play the specialist games as they seem to not be updated as often and the rules are on the Net in any case.
Good luck to Mongoose and SST - hope the game takes off and it's seen on plenty of tables!
Im happy to stick with warhammer fantasy, but I ditched 40k years ago. They screwed with the background too much - there still doing it now infact but hey if thats how they get there kicks.
Ill keep playing fantasy over SST because everything in fantasy is going to end up in plastic. From what I can remember, all the chariots/warmachines for each race will end up being plastic, along with popular regiments. This includes things like dark elf corsairs, chaos knights, and other bits and bobs I cant remember.
GW dont produce the best minis in the world, but for the quantity they churn them out at there arguably the best producers. Mongoose 28mm minitures so far have disappointed me - only the warrior bug has impressed me. The other minitures (notibly the lone wolf models, and the gangs models) look pretty similar to what GW were producing twenty years ago. I started collecting just over a decade and a half ago; the models from then still beat mongoose.
The sad thing about this is that I have a gut feeling that SST will go the same way as the LOTR game. LOTR had fantastic minitures, but the rules werent anything wonderful. Because of this, hardcore gamers didnt bother and went back to there old faithful (either fantasy or 40k). SST may have good rules, and have average models, but it seems to suffer from fanboyism.
How many postings are there, on this site, saying 'im going to buy *insert riddiculous amount of models here*' ?
Mongoose are only just starting up with minitures, so time will tell, but I honestly dont think it will last - the fanboys will eventually grow up and become disenfranchised. They'll then go play something else. tis the way of things
Ill keep playing fantasy over SST because everything in fantasy is going to end up in plastic. From what I can remember, all the chariots/warmachines for each race will end up being plastic, along with popular regiments. This includes things like dark elf corsairs, chaos knights, and other bits and bobs I cant remember.
GW dont produce the best minis in the world, but for the quantity they churn them out at there arguably the best producers. Mongoose 28mm minitures so far have disappointed me - only the warrior bug has impressed me. The other minitures (notibly the lone wolf models, and the gangs models) look pretty similar to what GW were producing twenty years ago. I started collecting just over a decade and a half ago; the models from then still beat mongoose.
The sad thing about this is that I have a gut feeling that SST will go the same way as the LOTR game. LOTR had fantastic minitures, but the rules werent anything wonderful. Because of this, hardcore gamers didnt bother and went back to there old faithful (either fantasy or 40k). SST may have good rules, and have average models, but it seems to suffer from fanboyism.
How many postings are there, on this site, saying 'im going to buy *insert riddiculous amount of models here*' ?
Mongoose are only just starting up with minitures, so time will tell, but I honestly dont think it will last - the fanboys will eventually grow up and become disenfranchised. They'll then go play something else. tis the way of things
Perma-guest
Mongoose
Danny said:
That was kinda his point. The newness of the game is attracting people who talk a good game about supporting the game, just like they did to the last game they abbandoned.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Wake up and smell the coffee guys, SST will not affect GW in anyway! The comments of less and less people going into their shops is crazy, they sell more 40K in a day than Mongoose will sell in 6 months!
Now I will be buying my copy of SST cause I think it looks cool. Just like I bought Warmachine, Warzone, Chronopia etc etc, why do I buy games cause I enjoy playing.
But lets stop the rubbish, SST will not put a dent n 40k or the GW buisness, and why do we feel the need to give them a hard time anyway, if you don't wanna play their games then don't buy their models, they don't force anyone to buy their stuff just like Mongoose ain't forcing any of you to pay what everyone agrees is a high price for the troopers box set.
Will GW continue to up their prices...YES of course they will, will Mongoose up their prices...em YES of course they will, everyone does, all the time!
Oh and GW does continue to produce all its plastic and metal ranges in the UK, not is China like everyone else, maybe thats a reason its more expensive as they support their local economy. The US division is also now producing the majority of all their own product within the US, Memphis I think.
Anyway thats my rant, just play games and enjoy yopurselfs, no need to be bitter!
Now I will be buying my copy of SST cause I think it looks cool. Just like I bought Warmachine, Warzone, Chronopia etc etc, why do I buy games cause I enjoy playing.
But lets stop the rubbish, SST will not put a dent n 40k or the GW buisness, and why do we feel the need to give them a hard time anyway, if you don't wanna play their games then don't buy their models, they don't force anyone to buy their stuff just like Mongoose ain't forcing any of you to pay what everyone agrees is a high price for the troopers box set.
Will GW continue to up their prices...YES of course they will, will Mongoose up their prices...em YES of course they will, everyone does, all the time!
Oh and GW does continue to produce all its plastic and metal ranges in the UK, not is China like everyone else, maybe thats a reason its more expensive as they support their local economy. The US division is also now producing the majority of all their own product within the US, Memphis I think.
Anyway thats my rant, just play games and enjoy yopurselfs, no need to be bitter!
nick klose
Mongoose
guest your comment was the best i have heard on the forum.
Elvis in Combat
Mongoose
So long as Mongoose Publishing pushes SST through a strong MI, then I'll be happy. MP needs to think about promoting their game and not about taking away GW market share.
If MP concentrates on:
1. Building a strong MI program. MP should make sure that each part of the US (and UK?) is covered and there are games going on EVERY Week in each section or major city that has some MI!!!
2. Starting or promoting (through independents?) a tournament scene.
3. Continues to make their product available through distributors.
They'll do fine. The stronger they are at #1 & #2 the more likely they'll be to win marketshare against GW in the US at least. If they treat the US (where there are A LOT of independent stores) like the UK (where I didn't find too many, but maybe it was just me) then SST won't even make a dent. The above 1-3 are so important for US success it should be a no brainer. :lol:
Anyway, Guest is right IF Mongoose Publishing follows the "usual method" for selling product in the US:
1. Talk big about MI but really don't build a strong program.
2. Don't bother with a tournament scene (this is advertising but reading about them is FUN even if I don't do it).
3. Simply make it available via distriubors
4. Place ads in magazines
Sure fire recipe to be like "all the others". I've seen it before, it'll happen again. Mongoose, prove me wrong regarding yourselves. I want to be wrong. :wink:
One of the reasons I think Warmachine has gone down in popularity is that PP jacked with their "MI" program. I wasn't involved but I've heard it's much harder to become one of their promoters now than it was before. GW is loosing money in the US because of price and they kicked out a bunch of Outriders (so I heard) which hasn't helped them either.
Anyway, in spite of the cost of the models (they are overpriced, they're made in CHINA!) I still won't hold back and by into SST in a big way. So I guess that means they are priced right? The good thing for MP is I'm now going to get into B5: ACTA as I kept coming back to this forum and then went over to the ACTA forum which hooked me. I really like these forums! Thanks Mongoose!
If MP concentrates on:
1. Building a strong MI program. MP should make sure that each part of the US (and UK?) is covered and there are games going on EVERY Week in each section or major city that has some MI!!!
2. Starting or promoting (through independents?) a tournament scene.
3. Continues to make their product available through distributors.
They'll do fine. The stronger they are at #1 & #2 the more likely they'll be to win marketshare against GW in the US at least. If they treat the US (where there are A LOT of independent stores) like the UK (where I didn't find too many, but maybe it was just me) then SST won't even make a dent. The above 1-3 are so important for US success it should be a no brainer. :lol:
Anyway, Guest is right IF Mongoose Publishing follows the "usual method" for selling product in the US:
1. Talk big about MI but really don't build a strong program.
2. Don't bother with a tournament scene (this is advertising but reading about them is FUN even if I don't do it).
3. Simply make it available via distriubors
4. Place ads in magazines
Sure fire recipe to be like "all the others". I've seen it before, it'll happen again. Mongoose, prove me wrong regarding yourselves. I want to be wrong. :wink:
One of the reasons I think Warmachine has gone down in popularity is that PP jacked with their "MI" program. I wasn't involved but I've heard it's much harder to become one of their promoters now than it was before. GW is loosing money in the US because of price and they kicked out a bunch of Outriders (so I heard) which hasn't helped them either.
Anyway, in spite of the cost of the models (they are overpriced, they're made in CHINA!) I still won't hold back and by into SST in a big way. So I guess that means they are priced right? The good thing for MP is I'm now going to get into B5: ACTA as I kept coming back to this forum and then went over to the ACTA forum which hooked me. I really like these forums! Thanks Mongoose!
Anonymous said:
well, this is conversation, not bitterness. GW makes life hard for themselves by being wannabee hard#$%@, and it turns people off. That's their bed, so they can lie in it and I have no sympathy for them. I still play WFB, and will continue to do so, but I buy products at HUGE discounts or get them off ebay, so the pricing isn't an issue for me. WFB is an adequately interesting, if slightly silly and comical world that they do not manage to reconcile well. But who cares? I think the silliness of the orcs and ogres is part of the appeal, and their fascination for chaos I just laugh at.
I can however, comment on Philadelphia, which is a major gaming area. The GW stores are not doing well because their policies, staff and locations are all sub-par. Can you believe that they don't even have email at the local stores? They've been promising for two years they'd have email available for listings. The problem - corporate policy.
Their locations are in lower-middle class discount malls, the kind that the kids who can afford their games do not go to. And the largest mall in the world, King of Prussia, has no GW store! HUH?! And the most affluent county in the entire state of Pennsylvania, Montgomery, has no GW store in it! C'mon, these guys have dropped the ball in a big way. If the rest of their stores are managed like this, then no wonder they lost money last year. But that is the price you pay for trying to cut out the indendant retailers.
And then of course there is on-line buying. I get 20-30% off with no tax and free shipping routinely. Needless to say, I don't buy from their retail stores.
As for the independant guys, they are doing great! They have booming leagues of Warmachine, confrontation, etc etc. They are eage to have ST in their hands.
That's the scene here in Philly. there are 3 million people in Southeast PA and one store, inconveniently located in an area surrounded by lower middle class people who can't really afford it. Dumb.
Will GW disappear? Of course not! Will the retail store method work for them? I doubt it but who knows? Bottom line is that other games are continuing to make inroads, and the hobby market for this product is so small and so diffuse that it is impossible to tell if ST is attracting gamers who are new, who are adding to their 40K habit, or who will dump 40K, with any statistical reliability.
Bottom line is I hope ST does well, which it should. Also, it is going to take away from 40K, at least in this area, which is not my problem. Better fluff, better prices, excellent figs (I have a ton of GW and the ST figs in my hand, so am qualified to compare, I think), movies, CGI and books - what more can you ask for?
No bitterness, it's just fairmarket competition.
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