Drinax Campaign Treasure Ship (Spoilers)
- Thread starter PsiTraveller
- Start date
Rereading the description of the ship and its contents, I'm left with the feeling that the stuff is in fact less about value-per-volume and more about being individually impressive tokens - much like modern day heads of state often present or are presented with gifts from other countries whose value may range from exorbitant to trivial, but it's more about the act of gifting than the value-per-volume of the gift; and in most cases the things end up on display or in storage because they don't have much practical use - or are too symbolically valuable to spoil by actually using them.
The treasure ship is hauling that kind of stuff. Yes, the cost for all of that security is way more than the value of what it's hauling, especially as compared to a standard cargo freighter, but an everyday (mega)freighter getting pirated isn't an interstellar embarrassment for the Imperium. The same way that a modern day cargo-container ship getting pirated often goes unnoticed while a national archive being plundered would be headline news everywhere.
Sure, there might be better ship designs for it, but the description also emphasizes that these things are a really old design that is maintained due to tradition and the appearance of prestige that it lends to the occasion. Just like the real world, that sort of prestige-traditionalism can be a weak point.
The treasure ship is hauling that kind of stuff. Yes, the cost for all of that security is way more than the value of what it's hauling, especially as compared to a standard cargo freighter, but an everyday (mega)freighter getting pirated isn't an interstellar embarrassment for the Imperium. The same way that a modern day cargo-container ship getting pirated often goes unnoticed while a national archive being plundered would be headline news everywhere.
Sure, there might be better ship designs for it, but the description also emphasizes that these things are a really old design that is maintained due to tradition and the appearance of prestige that it lends to the occasion. Just like the real world, that sort of prestige-traditionalism can be a weak point.
J. L. Brown
Emperor Mongoose
Meh. I doesn't even add up correctly; but it is obvious the ship is not even 70% full. 120 dTons (should be 60 usable) of Vault + 429 dTons of cargo = 489 dTons of space available. There is 320 dTons on board; 100 of it in the vault(?!).
120 dTons of VERY low-grade (6 kCr/dton) dust-spice;
100 dTons of Advanced Manufactured Goods / Advanced Electronics (100 kCr/dTon);
20 dTons of mail;
40 dTons of Luxury Goods (200 kCr/dTon);
20 dTons of Pharmaceuticals (100 kCr/dTon);
20 dTons of Radioactives (1000 kCr/dTon);
documents and gemstones of negligible mass (40000 kCr); AND
5 MCr in cash in the safe on the "Officer's Deck".
The DustSpice and Luxury goods might be aimed at 'here are nice things', but the very low quality sort of undermines that. The radioactives might be an attempt at 'be impressed by my wealth', but it comes up a bit short with so much empty space left aboard the treasure ship. The Advanced Electronics and Advanced Manufactured Goods might be a 'Be impressed at the technical prowess of my domain!' statement, and might actually be somewhat impressive, provided they are all TL 15. Most notable is that the Imperium seems to spare no effort to commit to half-measures.
The best the characters can hope to make off with in the Harrier is ~69 MCr; so once again their calculus of what exactly compels them comes into play. For the 'Treasure Ship' to be worthwhile for the players, it has to be worth risking the 318 MCr Harrier. It is also worth considering the payout in relation to other prizes available in the campaign; the 'Treasure Ship' is supposed to be a big payout heist. In Shadows of Sindal, the players can seize a 169 MCr subsidized liner with 60 MCr in crates of currency, and 97 dTons of precious metals aboard -- plus other loot. The Vorito Gambit might hand them a Black Globe generator. 'In Chains' in the Game of Sun & Shadow can get them dozens of ships & maybe a couple Imperial Navy vessels (a Galoof freighter & a subsidized liner prison hulk). Treasure of Sindal nets them two complete Harriers, a hidden base of more than 32000 dTons, and some problematic weapons.
The 'Treasure Ship' looks pretty puny in comparison.
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Rewards in all published adventures are a Three Bears Problem. Someone is always going to think it is too much, some folks are going to think its fine, and some folks are going to think its too little. Sometimes I read an adventure and it makes no sense to me at all and other people love it. And sometimes the reverse is true.
For some folks, wrecking the dance between the Duke of Tobia and the Aslan is worth it by itself. For others, it needs to be cold hard cash. For others, nothing will be worth the hassle. It's the players' role to determine if a particular activity is worthwhile and to see what levers they can apply to make things more valuable than the upfront listing, if they think more reward is necessary. Or maybe this'll just be a case where the open Al Capone's vault live and it wasn't worth doing.
The reality is that some significant percentage, if not an actual majority, of every adventure is going to have its rewards rescaled by the GM. Your reaction is that Treasure Ship is puny compared to those other rewards. Other GMs are going "Those other rewards are insanely large." And some folks think all of them suck and need to be upscaled.
I can think of lots of reasons why the treasure is fine the way it is and lots of reasons why it should be different. There's no right answer to how much it should be because that's incredibly dependent on campaign specific details.
For some folks, wrecking the dance between the Duke of Tobia and the Aslan is worth it by itself. For others, it needs to be cold hard cash. For others, nothing will be worth the hassle. It's the players' role to determine if a particular activity is worthwhile and to see what levers they can apply to make things more valuable than the upfront listing, if they think more reward is necessary. Or maybe this'll just be a case where the open Al Capone's vault live and it wasn't worth doing.
The reality is that some significant percentage, if not an actual majority, of every adventure is going to have its rewards rescaled by the GM. Your reaction is that Treasure Ship is puny compared to those other rewards. Other GMs are going "Those other rewards are insanely large." And some folks think all of them suck and need to be upscaled.
I can think of lots of reasons why the treasure is fine the way it is and lots of reasons why it should be different. There's no right answer to how much it should be because that's incredibly dependent on campaign specific details.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Using the Spanish Main as a benchmark, you have to recall chasing Spanish treasure galleons was considered economically viable, and possibly, patriotic.
On 26 September 1580, Golden Hind sailed into Plymouth with Drake and 59 remaining crew aboard, along with a rich cargo of spices and captured Spanish treasures. The queen's half-share of the cargo surpassed the rest of the crown's income for that entire year.
On 26 September 1580, Golden Hind sailed into Plymouth with Drake and 59 remaining crew aboard, along with a rich cargo of spices and captured Spanish treasures. The queen's half-share of the cargo surpassed the rest of the crown's income for that entire year.
Yenaldlooshi
Cosmic Mongoose
No offence but yours is the Westmoreland/McNamara school of military power use. Our guns are bigger = we win.
You actually could give the Spanish ironclads! (actually it would be worse for the Spanish due to the limited range of the ironclad due to coal dependency). It would make no difference.
There is no question that toe to toe, a Spanish warship versus a pirate sloop who would win. That's not how this works though. Don't feel bad. Military commanders and politicians are still making your same mistake to this day so you are in large company.
The problem is finding the sloop, or rather swarm of them once they have skipped to all the other islands. Sure, you could knock out a haven or two, but that is a bit like using a revolver to rid you of your cockroaches.
There is a political cost too for sending a massive fleet of warships to squash a few pirates and then you cannot even find them. Send a fleet of Tigress Dreadnoughts if you like. You might get lucky or you might not, but just because you have the most ships and guns does not mean you will get even a dime back of your treasure and if you don't, you will look like a fool to your peers at court.
Yenaldlooshi
Cosmic Mongoose
Regardless of disagreeing with your other comments about the efficacy of sending a war fleet to recover/punish the pirates for the heist. I pretty much agree with everything in this comment here, actually.Rewards in all published adventures are a Three Bears Problem. Someone is always going to think it is too much, some folks are going to think its fine, and some folks are going to think its too little. Sometimes I read an adventure and it makes no sense to me at all and other people love it. And sometimes the reverse is true.
For some folks, wrecking the dance between the Duke of Tobia and the Aslan is worth it by itself. For others, it needs to be cold hard cash. For others, nothing will be worth the hassle. It's the players' role to determine if a particular activity is worthwhile and to see what levers they can apply to make things more valuable than the upfront listing, if they think more reward is necessary. Or maybe this'll just be a case where the open Al Capone's vault live and it wasn't worth doing.
The reality is that some significant percentage, if not an actual majority, of every adventure is going to have its rewards rescaled by the GM. Your reaction is that Treasure Ship is puny compared to those other rewards. Other GMs are going "Those other rewards are insanely large." And some folks think all of them suck and need to be upscaled.
I can think of lots of reasons why the treasure is fine the way it is and lots of reasons why it should be different. There's no right answer to how much it should be because that's incredibly dependent on campaign specific details.
My take away will be that when I do decide to run the adventure, I should scale it based on what might impress my players and make them feel more than rewarded. Again, my focus is more on the name "TREASURE SHIP" than it is about the economic realities of interstellar trade. If that amount can be as little as a paltry 100Mcr or so, then that is what I will say they find. I am predicting that for my players it should be the value of a used capitol ship. I am thinking it will be enough that they will hear a rumor about a small Free Trader Company hoping to pull off what Oberlindes Lines did to get a fully armed Azhanti and then sell it for a profit to our heroes. ie a whole adventure about how they can spend it.
If that is less than what economics would dictate, then I guess the ship had most of its really valuable cargo already taken out of the vault before the heist.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
None taken, but I don't think torturing an analogy actually makes up for your statement on this.
Don't take it literally, I could have just as easily suggested Arleigh Burke destroyers - the point is, as you probably know, that the Imperium's resources so vastly outclass every military and paramilitary ship int the PoD campaign that if the Imperium was seriously upset it could flatten the whole sandbox, and things have to be contrived to prevent this.
Again this is not the point, the Imperium would send in scouts, close escorts, destroyers, light cruisers and light carriers, the PoD campaign is built around a small ship universe with limited resources. A single IN base likely has the resources to win the day.
Every starport mesoned to dust, every shipyard reduced to quarks. With very little effort. Then the afore mentioned close escorts, scouts and destroyers roam around and destroy every pirate vessel.
Now you are totally missing the point. It isn't a massive fleet of Imperial ships, it is a drop in the ocean of Imperial subsector resources. There are dozens of scouts, close escorts, destroyers to every light cruiser and light carrier. You wouldn't need a single ship larger than the light cruisers.
The PoD campaign was written without a thought to the big ship Imperial fleet paradigm.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I disagree. Most of the material I have read on the Trojan Reach says that patrol resources are thin as most of them have been drawn away to the Spinward Marches (pre-FFW) or are stationed in Nekrino doing anti-piracy patrols. ("To prevent the plague that is Theev from infesting the 3I.")
Let them 3I blast every starport to dust. All they did is kill trade. A Duke who kills trade, is not going to be a Duke for long as this would piss off every megacorp (GeDeCo for example which spent Trillions of credits building those starports and building up planet's TLs), defy Imperial High Law in regard to Free Trade (by ending trade in the Trojan Reach, both the Aslan Route as well as the Florian Route.), as well as piss off a large group of Aslan Clans. So, yeah, they can do this, but it will have huge negative consequences for the Duke of Tobia.
You miss the point. Just because you are physically capable of doing something does not mean that is what you will do. The US can nuke any country in the world into oblivion, 100%, but they don't. Why not? They do not want to deal with the negative consequences.
But let's go back to your idea. Blasting all of the starports to bits, which will then start a war with the Aslan because you just cost the females of the clans tons and tons of money and the males would see this as a landgrab, so now you started a war between the 3I and the Hierate in the Reach drawing resources away from the Spinward Marches. As soon as this happens, the Zhodani invade with ease, since you opened the door for them by moving your defenses out of position. Once that happens you have the Vargr seeing this weakness and invading as well.
So, congratulations Duke of Tobia! You just cost the 3I almost the entirety of the Domain of Deneb.
Using overwhelming force like you are describing, does not happen without major consequences. I was going to say, "doesn't happen in a vacuum", but... lolz Space is a vacuum...
One of the largest ships in the Reach in non-Imperial and non-Aslan hands is an old Gionetti-class cruiser at Torpol I think. Maybe it is somewhere else. I don't' remember and I am too tired to go look it up right now.MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
That is not contrived. That is an objective read of the political and military situation behind the claw, based on what has been written by the authors. Unless your definition of "contrived" is that everything is fake because it is fiction and not reality. Then I agree.
Yenaldlooshi
Cosmic Mongoose
Sigtrygg, my dear sibling in Traveller, my point was (is) that the thing you think is so strong.... ain't as strong as you think, no matter how "strong" you make it. You keep saying I am missing the point, but never seem to get mine. Let me try again with yours;
Using your words so I don't miss the point; "The PoD campaign was written without a thought to the big ship Imperial fleet paradigm."
What exactly can those "big ship"s do? Your example to this; "Every starport mesoned to dust, every shipyard reduced to quarks." your words.
"A single IN base likely has the resources to win the day" your words.
Now my point; none of those resources "win the day". They just don't work that way politically if you use real life as an example of such events. If you blast all those starports to dust, as you said, you have zillions of innocent lives lost. It is the same reason the US did not use nukes vs. Iran during the hostage crisis and in a million other conflicts where they far outclassed the competition in terms of military might yet still failed to achieve objectives.
Now, an IN task force of whatever size you think is what they will use can go in and threaten stuff in the PoD area, but realistically a) they will not get the lost treasure ship back unless they are incredibly lucky or use intelligence sources the referee may allow to exist or not and b) if they just go blasting stuff as you said "flatten the whole area" they would realistically create a fantastic story of atrocity to be spread through the 3I and beyond.
Setting a multi-Mcr bounty on their heads... that would be far more likely and effective and dangerous for your Travellers than a your nuke 'em till they glow imaginings courtesy of the IN.
Using your words so I don't miss the point; "The PoD campaign was written without a thought to the big ship Imperial fleet paradigm."
What exactly can those "big ship"s do? Your example to this; "Every starport mesoned to dust, every shipyard reduced to quarks." your words.
"A single IN base likely has the resources to win the day" your words.
Now my point; none of those resources "win the day". They just don't work that way politically if you use real life as an example of such events. If you blast all those starports to dust, as you said, you have zillions of innocent lives lost. It is the same reason the US did not use nukes vs. Iran during the hostage crisis and in a million other conflicts where they far outclassed the competition in terms of military might yet still failed to achieve objectives.
Now, an IN task force of whatever size you think is what they will use can go in and threaten stuff in the PoD area, but realistically a) they will not get the lost treasure ship back unless they are incredibly lucky or use intelligence sources the referee may allow to exist or not and b) if they just go blasting stuff as you said "flatten the whole area" they would realistically create a fantastic story of atrocity to be spread through the 3I and beyond.
Setting a multi-Mcr bounty on their heads... that would be far more likely and effective and dangerous for your Travellers than a your nuke 'em till they glow imaginings courtesy of the IN.
Yenaldlooshi
Cosmic Mongoose
Plot twist: shadowy secret players in the 3I actually want Drinax to rise to a new polity and be a buffer against the Aslan and so the Treasure Ship "Heist" was simply CONTRIVED to be allowed to happen as a way to secretly funnel capital funding to the Drinaxian Privateers in a way that even THEY don't realize they are being funded. The press and any other nobles who might protest such funding in the 3I cannot prevent this like they would if it was done openly. ie they are circumventing the Imperial version of the "Bolund Ammendment"!
Would this explain also why Theev has been allowed to flourish so close to the 3I getting high tech and heavy weapons?
Would this explain also why Theev has been allowed to flourish so close to the 3I getting high tech and heavy weapons?
Anstett
Emperor Mongoose
Which is what the Sindalians tried and failed to permanently affect more than a handful of systems.
The Treasure Ship vault containing an original archaic book of Aslan poetry (can be)/is far more valuable than a megafreighter of spice.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Proportionality.
It's not just for (war)gaming.
It's to control escalation.
It's not just for (war)gaming.
It's to control escalation.
There's already a POD scenario discussing an Imperial fleet blundering around and causing havoc. It's commanded by an incompetent popinjay, which mitigates its effectiveness. But that's likely the sort of thing that the Imperium would be doing in response to loss of a serious treasure.
Whether you think the various symbolic gifts in the "Treasure Ship" count as a serious treasure or not is a campaign specific issue.
Whether you think the various symbolic gifts in the "Treasure Ship" count as a serious treasure or not is a campaign specific issue.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
One of the Pirate Lords of Theev is actually a Naval Intelligence asset. His going AWOL with a small fleet to become pirates was a cover to create an Imperial-controlled, deniable, asymetrical force that can influence events across the Trojan Reach. Pirates of Drinax, Book 1 page 49. One of the ones that describe Theev and the Pirate Lords.
Read the Drinaxi Companion page 36 for info on the state of the local Imperial Fleet.
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
So The Game of Sun and Shadow is just a fever dream?
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
lmao! An incompetently commanded fever dream...lol...
Even the incompetent popinjay commanding that fleet realizes that the Imperium could flood the Reach with warships and take out pirates everywhere but chooses not to do so and makes a point of telling everyone that. While he may be misplacing the reason a bit - I'd put the sheer cost of a mobilization on that scale (especially relative to the cost of Reach piracy to the Imperium) ahead of any perceived strategic benefit - he's right about the we-could-but-won't part.
That, and yes, any action like that would almost be guaranteed to provoke the Hierate, which is a much bigger problem than local piracy ever would be. He even risks doing it (and might manage to do it, depending on how the plot plays out) with just his little flotilla.
That, and yes, any action like that would almost be guaranteed to provoke the Hierate, which is a much bigger problem than local piracy ever would be. He even risks doing it (and might manage to do it, depending on how the plot plays out) with just his little flotilla.
