Conan and the Shadow of the sorcerer boxed set

[VincentDarlage]

Then there are people like me: Over 30, full-time job, children, wife, writes RPG sourcebooks, attends school for Master's degree and I STILL have time to write my own adventures/campaigns. It is largely a matter of time-management.

I buy sourcebooks but I almost never buy adventures or campaigns. During the entire run of AD&D and AD&D 2nd Edition, I only bought three adventures (House of Strahd, Return to the Tomb of Horrors and the Rod of Seven Parts).

If someone wants to write his own games and considers that one of his priorities, that person will make time for it (there are always time-wasting moments during the day that can be reduced or cut out, such as posting on message boards). The ones most likely to buy a campaign are the ones who really do not want to make the time to do it themselves. The time issue is mostly just an excuse.

 

[Oly]

Oly, you're quite new there and if you browse through this forum you'll find a topic like "How old are you" and you will perhaps be surprised that the vast majority of Conan players are over 30. This means (and many told it) that they are married and have children and many other things to attend.

I wasn't trying to argue that the market for pre-packaged adventures doesn't exist. Rather I was saying that a small group (88 out of how many users?) of web based hard core Conan RPG fans saying that they would buy a large campaign pack doesn't imply that reasonable sales would be guaranteed from the potential Conan audience as a whole. I don't believe that the people on here, myself included, are representative of the RPG gaming market.

In the end Mongoose know roughly what sells in their other product lines and I'd hazard a guess that provides a far more accurate gauge of what will sell that what us lot say we will buy.

For the record I'm over 30, used to be married and while I don't have children I've always been very busy with both my social life and work.

Personally I find that running a shop bought adventure/campaign takes pretty much as much effort as just making one up myself. In fact in many ways it's more work as you put the effort in to make sure you know the whole adventure well enough to not have to pick up the book every 30 seconds for fear of "breaking" something that comes later.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Personally I find that running a shop bought adventure/campaign takes pretty much as much effort as just making one up myself. In fact in many ways it's more work as you put the effort in to make sure you know the whole adventure well enough to not have to pick up the book every 30 seconds for fear of "breaking" something that comes later.

I've found the same thing to be true; I think it is much harder to run a store-bought adventure than to make up my own. I cannot imagine the effort it would take to run a pre-made campaign and make sure it sounds and runs just as naturally as one of my own.

I would buy the product to support the line and the author, but am not sure I would ever run it.

 

[The King]

OK, then let's say you represent the 2 guys out of the 6 who voted "no". :wink:
Browsing through this topic many other and myself already explained why we would like this campaign.
Explanation is good but intent to buy is even better.

I also know that 89 persons is quite few compared to the sales for Conan but many people of the Conan forum are regular and could very well represent the general opinion.

For political opinion polls (or many other polls), it is quite rare when the number of persons asked exceed 1200. And this number should figure for a whole country!
89 opinions just for Conan is very good indeed and 84% is an excellent figure that many leaders would only dream of.

 

[Oly]

I also know that 89 persons is quite few compared to the sales for Conan but many people of the Conan forum are regular and could very well represent the general opinion.

For political opinion polls (or many other polls), it is quite rare when the number of persons asked exceed 1200. And this number should figure for a whole country!
89 opinions just for Conan is very good indeed and 84% is an excellent figure that many leaders would only dream of.

Professionally conducted polls may have a relatively small sample but they should also have been an effort made to make sure that that sample was representative of the voting population as a whole (well in theory anyway).

Aside from this board not being representative (well probably anyway) many of the users of the forum may not have even opened up the post if they had no interest in the campaign and those that did may not have voted. The positive result, while more than likely correct, is probably inaccurately high. Aside from that I think that many of us would buy just about anything of reasonable quality with the Conan and Mongoose logo on them, we're not good market demonstrators at all

 

[The King]

And if that number was a representative proportion of all the people who play and generally buy books for Conan RPG.
I am sure it would be the same (+/- 5 point). Many people there wrote they would buy it whatever the price.
I am also sure many people from the "not-so-sure" category would wait until they buy it on ebay (because it's too expensive to buy it now) or that their own campaign sessions develops in that way (beginning in Messantia with involvment in Stygia) because there is already a boxed set on Messantia and two regional sourcebooks on Argos and Stygia are already scheduled (one to be released this year).

 

[Rykion]

That the vast majority of people on a publisher's forum dedicated to the Conan RPG want to see a Conan RPG book published is not a surprise. People who post regularly on a publisher's forum are usually the definition of fanatic. The poll itself is in no way scientific and does not count the factor of price. Even an affirmative vote isn't a vote for "I will buy it." The majority of people who wouldn't care if it were published are unlikely to respond. A very good professional poll will have a +/-3 to 5 point variance. This poll just affirms that there are Conan fans on these forums.

 

[The King]

It's Alamo or what? Ok Come on! :twisted:

I can easily understand that people on a Conan forum are interested in Conan products.
Now there are many people playing or at least buying Conan RPG. Matt told recently that Conan was one of there bestselling title.
Thus it can also easily be guessed that people playing the game and not necessarily browsing on the forum also wish a campaign if one is available, instead of purchasing D&D (D20) campaigns and adapt them.

Moreover the forum is open to many and curious players might also have given their voice in this poll.

I am fairly sure that this figure is representative of what Conan RPG players (or more precisely Gms) on a whole would like to buy and appreciate.

I am also sure that many other Conan books (already released or not) would not reach such a high positive number.

So you can keep on coming you didn't even breach the wall.

 

[Rykion]

Alamo? Two people disagree with your belief that your poll has some standard of accuracy and your surrounded on all sides? :? I didn't actually vote in the poll, but I would have voted yes. I have no intention to buy the campaign, but I would like to see it published.

For your poll to reflect reality you have to take into account a few basic factors. Not all Conan DMs have internet access, so this poll in no way takes them into account. A publisher's forum is unlikely to draw in a huge or reliable sample of the prospective purchasers. People with little or no interest in Conan are unlikely to feel strongly enough to vote no in the poll, but they may vote yes because they like to see more products published. You've failed to include factors such as making people indicate if they would actually purchase it, and include what price points they would purchase it at.

Then there are the factors in RPG industry that make publishing major campaigns unlikely. Regular GM's are maybe 25% of the RPG market. Not all GM's buy adventures. Of the GM's that buy adventures, not all of them choose to buy campaigns or have the funds to buy them.

Your poll indicates that the majority of Conan fans on these forums would like to see the Shadow of the Sorcerer boxed set made. That's cool and I hope it does see the light of day.

 

[The King]

Even with foes from within I will overwhelm the odds and won't fall to pessimism.
I am the star that shines. Should I fade away who will bring you enlighment? (even better than French Sun King's I am the State)

A poll isn't about why you vote yes or not. It is as simple as yes, no or I don't know.

I already explain twice that people playing or better Gming Conan who don't vote there because they don't have internet or whatsoever are probably of the same opinion as those who voted.

As amateurish as it looks my poll is probably far more precise than the ballot boxes used some years ago in Florida and I don't even talk of people who sent their votes by post (where some votes might have been lost in transit or highjacked).

Why do you want the campaign and don't vote? It is due to the summer vote abstention?

 

[Oly]

Well if the poll is accurate and the feelings of 84% of the users of the "official" web forum for a particular RPG who were interested enough to read and vote in a poll titled "Conan and the Shadow of the sorcerer boxed set" (rather than a "Do you want a Conan and the Shadow of the sorcerer boxed set" which might attract more no votes, people who weren't at all interested in the product may well have skipped the post) do represent the wider RPG buying audience then no doubt we'll see Mongoose publish it ASAP swiftly followed by other such amazingly popular campaign box sets.

If Mongoose don't publish it then they must have something in for the Conan game, someone must be sabotaging whatever research they have carried out on the actual level of interest for such box sets in the RPG market! Another person must have infiltrated the sales department and adjusted the sales figures for campaigns and adventures vs. other sorts of RPG books.

It's a conspiracy I tell you! Apparently some of the people going into that sales department look like people but have shadows like walking serpents. Watch out.....

On the other hand it could just be that we're just not representative of the market and the interest level isn't that high.

 

[The King]

Well if the poll is accurate and the feelings of 84% of the users of the "official" web forum for a particular RPG who were interested enough to read and vote in a poll titled "Conan and the Shadow of the sorcerer boxed set" (rather than a "Do you want a Conan and the Shadow of the sorcerer boxed set" which might attract more no votes, people who weren't at all interested in the product may well have skipped the post) do represent the wider RPG buying audience then no doubt we'll see Mongoose publish it ASAP swiftly followed by other such amazingly popular campaign box sets.

This answer is simple: the number of spaces and letters in the title are limited.

OK, we will talk on another level. You produce shoes and intend to sell them. If you conduct a market poll you just want to have an idea of the interest. You don't care about the "no" answers.

Thus to be simple, let us consider that 64% of the people playing Conan RPG want to buy this campaign and that 20% more could buy it (with 8% who don't know but could perhaps buy it).
Let us consider also that people who don't play Conan RPG, but another system (OGL, d20, whatever) can be interested to buy this campaign to adapt it according to their setting (using it as a generic game).

Thus if Conan RPG is a hit and sold 100,000, you have something like 84,000 potential buyers.

I know it may not be high enough a figure for some but as told on 100,000 votes I would be happy to gather 84% with no cheating and no frauds during the votes.

I am also happy not to work in any emergency service so that I can answer people. But I wouldn't mind either because conspirators might also need healthcare.

 

[Rykion]

OK, we will talk on another level. You produce shoes and intend to sell them. If you conduct a market poll you just want to have an idea of the interest. You don't care about the "no" answers.

Actually you want an idea of the interest in each kind of shoe and at what price points. You also need a market poll that selects a reliable section of your target audience, something you are not likely to find on any small internet forum.

Thus if Conan RPG is a hit and sold 100,000, you have something like 84,000 potential buyers.

If Conan has sold 100,000 copies it would be a hit of incredible proportions in the D20/OGL market. Most gaming products are fortunate to sell in the 10k to 15k range. I know Conan has sold very well, but I'm not sure of the real numbers. I will use percentages rather than sales numbers because any number would be a guess. If 100% equals the corebook sales, then it is very likely only 30% were sold to GM's. The other 70% were sold to players who will not be buying a campaign. If we use your number of 84% compared to the 30% of corebook puchasers who are the target market, we get 25.2%. Most adventures only sell in the 5 to 15% range compared to corebooks. If Mongoose could get 25.2% to buy a campaign it would be great, but those numbers are based on a very small unscientific internet poll.

 

[Bregales]

Since this thread has woven along these lines for a while, I thought I'd post a link I was sent not too long ago about polls. Please don't consider this an attack, that's really not what I'm doing on these forums. Rather, consider it another attempt to pass along (trivial, useless, mind-eating) information.

The mathematics of voting: Democratic symmetry

 

[Strom]

I think it is very odd that Mongoose would solicit this project and then just cancel it. Especially after most of us expressed our excitement for this style of campaign. It makes no sense. Unless, the quality of the finished project was not up to the standards Mongoose set or did not fulfill the agreed upon criteria for the project. In other words, perhaps there was not a coherent plot that made sense and could progress the characters from 1st to 20th level as originally advertised. Add in the lateness due to health problems and the project had to be shelved. If that is the case then we will not get this project.

Also, there can be no doubt that this poll translates into dollars for Mongoose - I just do not think they have a campaign to sell us. I'm just grasping at straws here because I would love to buy it but I'm convinced the Goose don't want it for a reason other than it would not sell.

 

[MadDog]

Considering Mongoose proper has not publically even acknowledged this "grass roots campaign", I dont have much faith in ever seeing SoTS.

Mad Dog

 

[Oly]

OK, we will talk on another level. You produce shoes and intend to sell them. If you conduct a market poll you just want to have an idea of the interest. You don't care about the "no" answers.

Thus to be simple, let us consider that 64% of the people playing Conan RPG want to buy this campaign and that 20% more could buy it (with 8% who don't know but could perhaps buy it). Let us consider also that people who don't play Conan RPG, but another system (OGL, d20, whatever) can be interested to buy this campaign to adapt it according to their setting (using it as a generic game).

Thus if Conan RPG is a hit and sold 100,000, you have something like 84,000 potential buyers.

If you're going to argue that the 84% in this poll means that 84% of the buyers of the Conan book would buy it (putting aside for the moment Rykion's point that not all buyers are GMs) then counting the no votes becomes incredinly important.

You're poll shows that 78 people would would buy the product. If you even want to expand that to be 84% of the people on this forum (yet alone the wider Conan audience) then you need to make sure that the "no" votes have been counted.

If I run "Oly's Shoes With Holes In!" shop and I'm tempted to introduce a new shoe with two holes in then I ask the people who come into my shop if they'd like it, out of 100 84 say yes. Can I then presume that 84% of shoe buyers would buy them? No. The only people that expressed an opinion were those that came in, those that were already vaguely interested in that type of product.

The only people who voted in this poll were people who were interested in the subject, "Conan and the Shadow of the sorcerer boxed set", or those like me who were lured in when they saw the size of the discussion. Many potential "no's" could have been missed and until you get them you can't argue that you've got a percentage until you've got them.

Basically you do care about the "no" answers, well you're trying to argue a % figure anyway.

Even if you then do get a high % of people on here voting yes you've then got the whole additional argument about how we're not going to be representative of the market as a whole.

 

[Oly]

I think it is very odd that Mongoose would solicit this project and then just cancel it. Especially after most of us expressed our excitement for this style of campaign. It makes no sense.

Well as I've said I don't believe that "most of us" expressing an interest really says that much about the wider gaming audience.

I'd suspect that Mongoose know the potential sales for this sort of product pretty well and that maybe things were going to be pretty narrow. Things slipped and life got in the way and it became harder to justify compared to the sales that other books seems able to generate. I also wonder what the sales for "bigger" products like Messantia or Shadizar were like.

Probably a whole lot of reasons in the end. The good news is that Mongoose aren't letting the game slide and there appears to be lots of things on the way.

 

[The King]

If you're going to argue that the 84% in this poll means that 84% of the buyers of the Conan book would buy it (putting aside for the moment Rykion's point that not all buyers are GMs) then counting the no votes becomes incredinly important.

You're poll shows that 78 people would would buy the product. If you even want to expand that to be 84% of the people on this forum (yet alone the wider Conan audience) then you need to make sure that the "no" votes have been counted.

If I run "Oly's Shoes With Holes In!" shop and I'm tempted to introduce a new shoe with two holes in then I ask the people who come into my shop if they'd like it, out of 100 84 say yes. Can I then presume that 84% of shoe buyers would buy them? No. The only people that expressed an opinion were those that came in, those that were already vaguely interested in that type of product.

I don't think it is interesting to talk further with people who just put counter-arguments for nought as I just could rewrote my previous 3 posts on the subjects.
You should work as a UNO commissioned peacemaker, so the organization could send more soldiers around the world. Walls are now easy to build but as easy to destroy but they still can't talk.

Now tell me one thing: if you run your shop Oly's Shoes, do you believe your shop will have as much reknown as Conan in the world, even considering that Conan isn't classic litterature.
Or perhaps Arnold Schwarzenegger made some worldwide advertisements for your shoes (or your shop) and that Tor books also publised a series of books (ca. 50 in all) where your shoes are worn by the heroes?
Or perhaps your shop has fan club all around the world.

 

[The King]

Considering Mongoose proper has not publically even acknowledged this "grass roots campaign", I dont have much faith in ever seeing SoTS.

Mad Dog

Now this is an argument because Mongoose has the last word in the end. Msprange wrote one post in this thread and said they would do something but we would have to wait, though he wasn't more explicit.

The fact is that something is in preparation but I don't think it concerns this campaign of Jason.

Knowing that tSotS is almost finished and that Jason is an accomplished author and moreover considering that the plot was quite interesting (beginning in Messantia and ending in Stygia), the idea of this poll was just to promote this work. No more no less.

I can't imagine that 250 pages out of 300 must be thrown in the bin while so many people want to read (and play) it.