Character Sheet Is Up!!!

[Archer]

They seem very low.

Well, they appear to be absolute minimum base percentages. It doesn't seem to include any sort of 'cultural bases' (which implies that they aren't used) not does it seem to include any 'previous experience' via character generation (which implies similarly that they aren't used either).

I hope that is correct, and that beginning characters will have a bit higher scores in their skills.

If not, that will be the first area where I will apply house-rules

 

[Ravelli]

They seem very low.

Well, they appear to be absolute minimum base percentages. It doesn't seem to include any sort of 'cultural bases' (which implies that they aren't used) not does it seem to include any 'previous experience' via character generation (which implies similarly that they aren't used either).

:?
Have another look, Steve. Many of those skills are above their starting values ...

Athletics
First Aid
Influence
Lore (Animal and Plant)
Perception
Persistence
Resilience
Stealth
Unarmed
1H Axe
Shield
Bow
Healing
Language [+50 for native tongue?]
Runecasting
Survival

... and they do seem appropriate for his culture and profession. There may well be skill packages for different backgrounds at chargen. :wink:

 

[SteveMND]

Fair enough. In my defense, I am blind in one eye and it was early in the morning when I posted that.

 

[Ravelli]

And admittedly most of the additional skill percentages are only in the plus five or ten percent region and pretty easy to overlook ... another mitigating factor in your defence.

I'd have to agree with you guys that, based on this, Novice characters in MRQ seem to be of the "WFRP2 character using an advanced skill he doesn't have" level of ineptitude. :shock:

 

[Archer]

I'd have to agree with you guys that, based on this, Novice characters in MRQ seem to be of the "WFRP2 character using an advanced skill he doesn't have" level of ineptitude. :shock:

Exactly, and after having running WFRP1 since '86, where you were at least pretty capable, and rolled at least at your whole characteristic, which was in the 25-40% range, that level of ineptitude felt very inappropriate.

Not that this is a very good example, or very logical, it is mostly based on how I feel about the difference. Running beginning characters that rolls against 33% (average) or that rolls against 14%(average), pretty much feels like the difference between a Lvl 8 and a level 1 character in D&D, where you expect the level 1 character to meet the same challenges.
Basically, he does not stand much of a chance.

The only way to balance the really low starting values is by giving lots of positive bonuses on rolls. But then, you will have to keep doing that when the characters are better as well, or otherwise the players will feel cheated. "Why do I not get a +10% bonus on an easy task now when I had that on a much lower skill level?".

So basically, the only real solution is to boost the starting values somewhat. I think a good guideline should be that 20% should be the absolute minimum to roll against, with around 30% being an average starting value, and perhaps 40% being a good starting value.

Luckily, I belive it will be quite easy to modify the basic MRQ rules to create more capable beginning characters. I just feel that it is sad that I might have to do that.

 

[andakitty]

I don't think the problems being cited are problems. Give hp locations only more than a one time tryout, you will find it works fine. Besides, you have that option to do aimed shots. Everybody doesn't wear plate.

Low percentages? No houserules required, just start the PCs off more experienced, at the Seasoned level or above.

No big deal.

 

[Archer]

I don't think the problems being cited are problems. Give hp locations only more than a one time tryout, you will find it works fine. Besides, you have that option to do aimed shots. Everybody doesn't wear plate.

One time tryout? I call 5 years of playing a game more than a tryout.
I do not (yet) see too much difference between that game and MRQ rules-wise to make me believe that it will be different. In fact, MRQ has more HP per hit location (going by how much the duck has compared to its SIZ and CON), so it has potential to be worse.
But like you said, not eveyone wears plate armor.
I guess we will see how well things works with aimed shots, etc. when the game is in our hands and we play it. But I have a strong feeling that heavy weapons and using aimed blows will quickly become quite common.
Assuming that you can attack with each of the combat actions you have, that might change things also, since it would allow a much greater amount of damage dealing per round compared to other Basic Role-play clones.

Low percentages? No houserules required, just start the PCs off more experienced, at the Seasoned level or above.

No big deal.

True. Some would call that a house-rule though
And it is probably not such a big deal as it is in WFRP2.

 

[atgxtg]

Well, at the very least it shows that Mongoose is payng attention to us ol' RQ fans. THat's probably worth more than what the character sheet look like, any way. Thanks, mongooses.

As to the new sheet, it does look somewhat better than the first one, and the real prize is the same character Orfil, since it gives up all a better clue of what a starting (?) character looks like. Still not as good lookingas Malakor's sheet, but better than the first sheet.


REVERSE ENGINEERING ORFIL DUSKWALKER

What I find the most interesting about the new sheet is Orfil "Print" Duskwalker. There is a lot of stuff on that sheet that gives me some ideas as to how the new RQ might work.

DAMAGE BONUS
The damage modifer is suprising the same as it would have been in RQ3. I believe that tis is just where the two systems overlap, and that the new Qhas reduced the damage modifer. I am suspecting that it now does +1D2/+1D4/+1D6/+1D8/+1D10/+1D12, and up.

BEGINNING SKILL PERCENTAGES
Skill pencentages did look a little low, but after going through character generation they seem alright. Most of the thngs the character actually knows (and now defaulting on) are in the 25%-40% level, respecable for starting skills.

As for if you need to add big bonuses to make things work for starting PCs, maybe not. RQ is supposeldy goning to have some sort of mechanic for opposing skill scores. If so, if might mean that a character can win certain contests by "failing by a lesser amount". For example in a contest of Strength, if one character fails the STR roll by 10%, but his opponent fails the roll by 37%, the first character culd win. Sort of what is used in Pendragon and HeroQuest.


THE -2% TO SOME SKILLS
Some skills, specifically Athletics, Dodge, Riding, Sleight, Stealth, Throwing, Unarmed, all weapon skills, and Dance, have a score in parenthesis with a -2% modifer.

Since these are all physical activity skills, and the character has 2 points of armor, it look like that you kmight take a -1% per point of armor in the new RQ. If so, heavy armor is going to have a big penalty, about twice the old RQ penalty.But, maybe there is an advanced skill to help reduce the penalty (wearing armor really is a skill). Or it could just be a coincidence, and Orfil is carrying enough ENC to warrent a 2% peanlty.

ADVANCED SKILLS
It looks like Advanced Skills are those skills that used to be 00% skills in RQ3. Gernally stuff you can't really do without some sort of training.

SHIELD ATTACKS
Looks like they went with Strombringer's One skill % score for weapons. Shields can attack, but at a penalty. Hmm. Well, it will make shield bashing more of an option than in previous editions.
[/i]

 

[atgxtg]

Heay Malakor?

I know I'm pushing it, but any chance of a charactrer sheet with the male hit location image replace with a female image? :?: It helps when people play female characters, and when getting a woman to try the game.

 

[andakitty]

Ah, the Seasoned level and above option was in one of the previews. It is an official MRQ rule.

Again, I have run a game with hit locations only, weapons with no damage bonuses, hit points about the same as MRQ, and the combat was just deadly. Maybe Fifth Cycle has some conditional mod or something that has a strong effect on how things balance out that your game didn't. May I inquire what you were playing and what houserules if any you were using? Armor values in mine were lower than MRQ's look to be, but that shouldn't be a deal breaker by itself.

 

[Ravelli]

Heay Malakor?

I know I'm pushing it, but any chance of a charactrer sheet with the male hit location image replace with a female image? :?: It helps when people play female characters, and when getting a woman to try the game.

Hey, seeing as we're pushing things here ... Malakor is there any chance you could replace that male image with something that's not from one of the original Champions character sheets? Your MRQ sheets are excellent but everytime I see that bloke I want to write "10d6 AP EB" on them. :wink:

 

[Archer]

Ah, the Seasoned level and above option was in one of the previews. It is an official MRQ rule.

Oh, forgot about that one.

Again, I have run a game with hit locations only, weapons with no damage bonuses, hit points about the same as MRQ, and the combat was just deadly. Maybe Fifth Cycle has some conditional mod or something that has a strong effect on how things balance out that your game didn't. May I inquire what you were playing and what houserules if any you were using? Armor values in mine were lower than MRQ's look to be, but that shouldn't be a deal breaker by itself.

First I want to appology a lot for a long post, I removed some of the examples, the ones I have mentioned should suffice for this discussion.

I do not know about Fifth Cycle, so I can not say.
As for the game I am refering to, it is actually several RPGs, which has formed my opinion about Hit Location HPs;

> Mutant Chronicles - which was pretty far removed from BRP (the system had undergone several mutations, no phun intended). It actually had a Total HP, but you had so many Total HP, that effectively it was down to trying to deal enough damage to Hit Locations in order to drop an opponent.

> Wizards & Warlocks - an indie production, to use a more modern term, which basically was a modified RQ/DoD1+2, that one of my players picked up on a convention around 83/84 (don't remember exactly) and GMed. It had the same modification as MRQ with Hit Locations, but lesser HP per hit location. Beyond that and the magic system (a magic system much closer to AD&D), it was pretty close to RQ3 or EDD, using both d20 and d100 roll for the skill resolution, somewhat similar to the mechanics of Drakar och Demoner Samuraj that was relased later on.

> Twilight 2000 - not BRP clone, but principle of HPs per hit location were the same, without any Total HP. It is not a good comparison with MRQ, but the basic idea of Hit Location HP only is there, and it worked not at all good. I remember characters stepping on landmines etc. getting their legs blown off, but not dying.

> CoC + 1990's Handbook (don't know the specifics of the rules since the GM handled all the rules and the character sheets, but it had hit locations). Hit Locations in CoC was a very welcome thing though, since it allowed you to shot someone in the leg without killing them, something you often wanted to do, rather than killing them.

> EDD (Expert Drakar och Demoner) - This was the first version of Drakar och Demoner that included Hit Location HPs. The GM running it adopted the no Total HP rule from Wizards & Warlocks, which made the rules very much on the level of MRQ when it comes to how much damage weapon deals, and how much a Hit Location can take, as well as an exact match on the AP for armor.

As far as I remember, the dropping of Total HP was the only house rule we used, and we played EDD for about 5 years this way. So this is my primary example in this case.

When DoD'91 was released, the campaign was partially converted to those rules, keeping the no Total HP system and eventually we used the
different handbooks that was released (I think that the Warriors handbook even included official optional rules for dropping Total HPs, but don't quote me on that as I am not 100% sure).

Although we used Total HPs when we first began playing EDD (as we learned the rules), the problem of High APs per hit location (8 points for plate), in combination with access to magic to further boost your APs, quickly made us realize the flaw of the system, as it was easy to create characters that became near invulnerable to lighter weapons.

This problem became even more evidently a serious problem when we later on dropped the Total HP from the system. Which is why when after some years of not playing it, I once again ran a nostalgic campaign with a new group of players in '98, I totally dropped the Hit Location HPs, inspired by Stormbringer.

> Stormbringer 1/2/3 - Loved reading these games, but never got to play them as my group of players at that time hated anything related to Elric. It showed how you could still have only Total HP, and make combat deadly, while still having some details when a significant hit was scored.

>Elric!(Stormbringer4)/Stormbringer 5 - two games (among several) I have GMed since '98 (and ongoing campaign). While in many ways fundamentally the same as earlier editions, it allowed a character to actually do more actions per round (splitting % when you go above 100% for example). The Major wounds system works very well in play (cant say how well earlier editions worked since I have not GMed or played earlier editions), and it was easily modifiable. It did not take long for us to expand the Major Wounds table (or just ad hoc describing a Major wound as it suited the situation). Fast, deadly, and still very detailed when it comes to significant hits. You definetly can loose body parts, and have arms, legs, etc. disabled.

> WFRP1/WFRP2 - While it does not have HPs it does have Hit Locations, and these are used to determine what Armor protects against a specific blow, and what happens if the hit was Critical Hit. Though less deadly in WFRP2 (according to my point of view), WFRP1 with it's GM Kit Crits is probably the most lethal and detailed injury system I have used that still is playable.

That said, EDD and DoD'91 with no Total HP was in it's injury system (Damages/Armor APs/Hit Location HPs) pretty much what you have with MRQ.

Hopefully this very long post explains why I am now such a fanatic of using only Total HPs + some sort of Major Wound system, instead of using Hit Location HPs. MRQ is in this regard, a trip down a road that I have already walked. I know where it leads.
Hopefully I am somehow proven wrong (I very much hope so, since I want MRQ as a sort of replacement for DoD, and as a generic system to be used in misc. campaigns).

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

They seem very low.

Well, they appear to be absolute minimum base percentages. It doesn't seem to include any sort of 'cultural bases' (which implies that they aren't used) not does it seem to include any 'previous experience' via character generation (which implies similarly that they aren't used either).

The guy is supposed to be a Shaman, so I'd assume that if we had the spells part of him available, we'd see where the bulk of his "previous experience" (or whatever the equivalent will be) went.

I'm more worried about his attack being too high for a Shaman character. I would have thought 40% ish was suitable for a beginning warrior-type, and a magician would have had base score only (24 in this case).

And I'm still really worried about character classes. Let's hope that "Profession" is just there as a helper for beginners or anyone who may not have a clear idea of what type of character they want, and that the rules aren't designed in such a way as to get in the way of those who do have that idea. Some official indication would be nice (hint hint).

 

[andakitty]

It's OK, Archer.

You have never played RQ2?

 

[burdock]

I'm more worried about his attack being too high for a Shaman character. I would have thought 40% ish was suitable for a beginning warrior-type, and a magician would have had base score only (24 in this case).

The chap is ALSO from a barbarian background. He spent his childhood hunting and playing with weapons. Runequest does away with rigid "types" of people and so it is more realistic. If you want a real world example of a revered shaman who knew how to fight you could check out the histories of Black Elk (a shaman of the oglala sioux) as transcribed by Niedhardt and Joseph Epes Brown

 

[burdock]

I like some of the low skill abilities....some of my most fun gaming experiences have been when I started off in the gutters.....though many of the skills abilities are reasonably high - a well rounded beginning character

 

[atgxtg]

Heay Malakor?

I know I'm pushing it, but any chance of a charactrer sheet with the male hit location image replace with a female image? :?: It helps when people play female characters, and when getting a woman to try the game.

Hey, seeing as we're pushing things here ... Malakor is there any chance you could replace that male image with something that's not from one of the original Champions character sheets? Your MRQ sheets are excellent but everytime I see that bloke I want to write "10d6 AP EB" on them. :wink:

I'd be willing to scan some other images if it could help. (Sorry Malakor, I didn't mean to snowball this). I could "borrow" the images/characters from the old RQ3 Adventuerer sheets and paste them over the generic one ion Malakor's sheet. THat would let people customize the image and be a spot for a character picture (something that some people want).

I just have to figure put how to o this to a pdf with what I've got for software.

 

[Malakor]

Heay Malakor?

I know I'm pushing it, but any chance of a charactrer sheet with the male hit location image replace with a female image? :?: It helps when people play female characters, and when getting a woman to try the game.

I'm at the office right now. I'll check when I get home tonight, and but I think there is a female figure in my batch. If so, I'll do it and put it on my wiki site.

Won't be a biggie, and it's always good to get more women involved in our hobby.

 

[atgxtg]

Heay Malakor?

I know I'm pushing it, but any chance of a charactrer sheet with the male hit location image replace with a female image? :?: It helps when people play female characters, and when getting a woman to try the game.

I'm at the office right now. I'll check when I get home tonight, and but I think there is a female figure in my batch. If so, I'll do it and put it on my wiki site.

Won't be a biggie, and it's always good to get more women involved in our hobby.

Thanks, and like I posted eairlier-I can take the figures off of the old RQ3 sheets if we can to put on a picture that we can turn into a chracter pic.

 

[Malakor]

Heay Malakor?

I know I'm pushing it, but any chance of a charactrer sheet with the male hit location image replace with a female image? :?: It helps when people play female characters, and when getting a woman to try the game.

Hey, seeing as we're pushing things here ... Malakor is there any chance you could replace that male image with something that's not from one of the original Champions character sheets? Your MRQ sheets are excellent but everytime I see that bloke I want to write "10d6 AP EB" on them. :wink:

Ah, is that where I got that? I have a file at home called body images It may have to wait until I have time to do something else. What I'd like to do is replace it with an actual sketch of a person if I get some time.