Why hydrogen?

[captainjack23]

Wouldn't the H2 react with a Carbon Compound of any type?

I don't think H2 is itself particularly reactive (not like a halogen like Chlorine or fluorine would be anyway). The problem with hydrogen and oxygen is that any kind of spark will ignite the combination and cause reactions, but I thought that in an otherwise inert environment they could just coexist together without reacting.

my understanding, too, FWIW. chemistry skill check, anyone ?

 

[Shiloh]

The only real issue with moving the H2 as part of another compound is the mass issue - if the combined substance has much more mass than the stored hydrogen, for equal volumes of hydrogen, then it is a problem - assuming that mass matters for M drives.

It can't. Mass, I mean, matter. You can fill the hold with Iridium or fissionables and still drive. Or even just rock if you're not richer than the Empire... You're just setting aside some holdspace for fuel, effectively. Though if this were "common practice", (i.e. you houseruled it) you could redesign the fuel tankage rules to cope.

One other, and this is occuring to me as I write, is that I always saw the jump bubble as needing to be "blown" very quickly - probably as the ship is entering Jspace. Starting from bound H might be a bit problematic -so one would have to have cracked it well beforehand -which does make for a storage problem. Perhaps those big H balloons ?

Which is why you need "normal" tankage for the jump volume.

Besides, how dangerous is H2 in the absence of other molecules ? Not very, I'd guess, if one is thinking Hindenberg - that reaction requires O2......

H2 isn't spontaneously reactive with much. Its oxidation reaction has a hight exothermic enthalpy...

Edit: for tags.

 

[captainjack23]

The only real issue with moving the H2 as part of another compound is the mass issue - if the combined substance has much more mass than the stored hydrogen, for equal volumes of hydrogen, then it is a problem - assuming that mass matters for M drives.

It can't. Mass, I mean, matter. You can fill the hold with Iridium or fissionables and still drive. Or even just rock if you're not richer than the Empire... You're just setting aside some holdspace for fuel, effectively. Though if this were "common practice", (i.e. you houseruled it) you could redesign the fuel tankage rules to cope.

Oh yeah...I keep thinking about that real life stuff...thrust in Trav is mass independent, isn't it. Good point.

So, Then, there are compounds that store an equal amount of H in the same or less volume, right ?

 

[far-trader]

...So, Then, there are compounds that store an equal amount of H in the same or less volume, right?

Yes. But...

...it breaks the rules

The rational way to approach it is that the way the rules read is the optimum method available (whatever that may be for any point in time, whether that was 1977 or now). We are talking about the far-future here, they will have found an even "better" way than we can imagine

So the fuel still requires the same volume of the hull, even if we have since found ways to carry the same volume of the past in a smaller volume in the present.

Same applies imo to all aspects of the game, yes even the old multi-ton computers :wink:

 

[EDG]

...it breaks the rules

It breaks the assumptions, not the rules. There's absolutely no reason why anyone wouldn't store hydrogen in a more space-efficient way in a far-future setting if we know of a way to do that already. Ditto with the multi-ton computers.

 

[captainjack23]

...it breaks the rules

It breaks the assumptions, not the rules. There's absolutely no reason why anyone wouldn't store hydrogen in a more space-efficient way in a far-future setting if we know of a way to do that already. Ditto with the multi-ton computers.

I think far trader was talking about the rules of the game, as explicitly stated and written in the OTU, not the rules of real life....game rules are just assumptions which we agree to be fact, after all....if we are playing the game, anyway.

Fuel storage directly effects travel time ->effects communication speed-> effects a basic OTU trope (if not traveller as generic, anyhoo).

 

[EDG]

I think far trader was talking about the rules of the game, as explicitly stated and written in the OTU, not the rules of real life....

I think what he meant was that the axioms of the setting are such that computers are huge, pure hydrogen is the only fuel storage, etc.

But there's no reason why that should be the case. There's nothing actually stopping anyone in the OTU from building a small computer, or using a more space-efficient way of storing fuel - the only reason against that is that it'd go against "the feel of the setting".

("jump always takes a week" is another axiom - but unlike the above there's not much anyone can do to change that within the setting).

 

[captainjack23]

I think far trader was talking about the rules of the game, as explicitly stated and written in the OTU, not the rules of real life....

I think what he meant was that the axioms of the setting are such that computers are huge, pure hydrogen is the only fuel storage, etc.

But there's no reason why that should be the case. There's nothing actually stopping anyone in the OTU from building a small computer, or using a more space-efficient way of storing fuel - the only reason against that is that it'd go against "the feel of the setting".

("jump always takes a week" is another axiom - but unlike the above there's not much anyone can do to change that within the setting).

I think that this point needs a bit more substance than simply switching nouns occasionally. Axioms = assumptions taken as fact = game rules ="we hold these truths to be self evident".

In a discussion of the OTU, and the vaguely accepted idea of how the rules play, look and feel is valid argument; in fact, other than argument number #1 ("the author wrote it, I read it, that settles it"), "that makes it a different game" is about the only other good canon argument when 1 fails.

Traveller says H is the fuel, and that it is stored as a liquid -stupid as it may seem, its the rule. Sure you can change it -but expect discussion, and not just on the terms of how possible it is to change it, or how realistic is the change.

And BTW; the jumpspace time is as easy to change as any other rule. Why not ? Just write over it; of course, that makes any comparison to the OTU "look and feel" quite moot....but then it's your rulebook.


Lets not tear up the thread on this, though.....look and feel is another never ending war - the only reason why a rule shouldn't be changed is because the ones playing the game don't want to; and vice versa.

 

[rust]

... ("jump always takes a week" is another axiom - but unlike the above there's not much anyone can do to change that within the setting).

Our setting uses hyperdrives with speeds from 1,000 c to 2,000 c (small
ships and those with military drives are the faster ones) and a "hyperbor-
der" based upon the mass of the sun instead of the 100 D limit, within the
basic Traveller framework, and it works just fine.

Traveller is generic enough to allow a lot of tweaking.

 

[captainjack23]

... ("jump always takes a week" is another axiom - but unlike the above there's not much anyone can do to change that within the setting).

Our setting uses hyperdrives with speeds from 1,000 c to 2,000 c (small
ships and those with military drives are the faster ones) and a "hyperbor-
der" based upon the mass of the sun instead of the 100 D limit, within the
basic Traveller framework, and it works just fine.

Traveller is generic enough to allow a lot of tweaking.

but not, unfortunately, to tolerate it....

 

[EDG]

Traveller says H is the fuel, and that it is stored as a liquid -stupid as it may seem, its the rule. Sure you can change it -but expect discussion, and not just on the terms of how possible it is to change it, or how realistic is the change.

There's a difference between "an assumption of the setting", and "the rules of the game". A rule of the game is something like "a solid slug fired from a shotgun does 2d6 damage". An assumption of the setting is that ship computers are always big, multiton monsters, hydrogen is the only way fuel can be stored, jump taking a week no matter what, etc.

Ordinarily, the setting is not the rules, and the rules are not the setting. They are usually two different, separate things, but the OTU has traditionally mashed the two together to make an unholy mess that isn't easily separable.

And BTW; the jumpspace time is as easy to change as any other rule. Why not ? Just write over it; of course, that makes any comparison to the OTU "look and feel" quite moot....but then it's your rulebook.

That's missing the point entirely. Just scribbling bits out of a rulebook to say that jump isn't a week long is you (the player/GM) changing the rules of the game to suit you - but by doing that you're changing the whole fundamental basis of the game - the assumed laws of its universe. The computer size and fuel type is something that can be easily invented by a character within the game setting though, without having to change any laws of anything. But they're not, purely because it 'goes against the spirit of the setting'. Which is fair enough, but unlike the axioms of how jump works or whatever, it's a considerably thinner wall to break down and can be fully justified within the setting.

If the assumption in the OTU is that Jump is the only FTL method possible in that universe, and it always takes a week, then that's a fundamental axiom that is unchangeable (without changing everything about the OTU, at least, and then you've ended up with something else). But if anyone says that the only possible way to store hydrogen is in its pure form, then the Traveller universe is a very weird place that doesn't conform to our universe at all. And it won't change much to do that anyway - it means ships can store more fuel, and go for longer before refuelling - but everything else still stays the same, they're still in jump for a week at a time, still have to use sublight engines to get from A to B in realspace etc.

It's like saying that the only way to write words on paper is from left to right... well, no - you can just as easily write the words from right to left too, or from top to bottom - the only thing stopping you from doing so is a weird, completely arbitrary, axiomatic mental block.

 

[captainjack23]

Okay.....I'll argue jump space but not semantics. I'd say we actually aren't in much disagreement, but I honestly am not sure if I understand what your point is. So, until I do, I'll bow out.

 

[far-trader]

You're both more or less right in better defining what I meant with my simple answer. Kinda frightening eh? Carry on.

 

[captainjack23]

You're both more or less right in better defining what I meant with my simple answer. Kinda frightening eh? Carry on.

way too scary for me. I'll pass. See you in the canon corner !

 

[captainjack23]

imagine

So the fuel still requires the same volume of the hull, even if we have since found ways to carry the same volume of the past in a smaller volume in the present.

...it took me about three reads-through before my brain wrapped around that for some reason...but yes.

I kept reading it as "the hull requires the same volume of fuel -which is true, but your point does work better expressed backwards from the usual way.


....unless you wrote it that way by accident, and only sound profound...

 

[EDG]

This discussion on the SJG forums may prove useful for exploring alternative fuel storage compounds:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=36546

This post is also useful:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=219812&postcount=9

 

[captainjack23]

This discussion on the SJG forums may prove useful for exploring alternative fuel storage compounds:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=36546

This post is also useful:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=219812&postcount=9

Thanks !!
MUCH better than semantics.....

 

[Shiloh]

...So, Then, there are compounds that store an equal amount of H in the same or less volume, right?

Yes. But...

...it breaks the rules

Not in MTU, it doesn't... ;-) Or, at least, it won't after this...

Yes, this discussion would involve changes to the ship construction/operation sections in the RAW of most incarnations of the game. Those SJG threads, though, already mention the "gravitically compressed metallic hydrogen" as having been an option in G:T, so this is (obviously) far from revolutionary thinking...

I like it though, because one of the things that has always been a bit offputting was the sheer volume of fuel space needed for high jump numbers, and the wierdness of having a "scout" ship that could go out and scout, but unless there was a known accessible, fuel source near its arrival point, couldn't come home again: not much use for sneaking a quick peek from the edge of the system and hopping back out.

 

[AKAramis]

There's a difference between "an assumption of the setting", and "the rules of the game". A rule of the game is something like "a solid slug fired from a shotgun does 2d6 damage". An assumption of the setting is that ship computers are always big, multiton monsters, hydrogen is the only way fuel can be stored, jump taking a week no matter what, etc.

Ordinarily, the setting is not the rules, and the rules are not the setting. They are usually two different, separate things, but the OTU has traditionally mashed the two together to make an unholy mess that isn't easily separable.

I disagree. Vehemently, in fact.

In most games, the setting and rules are intertwined. The rules imply strong elements about the setting, elements not present in the prose.

It was this very realization that soured me on GURPS as a generic ruleset: Rules matter QUITE a lot.

Having run the exact same (homebrew) adventure under FASA-Trek, Prime Directive 1E, GURPS, and LUG-Trek, it plays very differently under each, despite the exact same base assumptions of the setting: TOS, down by shuttle due to magnetic storms, no transporter available, in a mining colony experiencing a variation on Devil in the Dark.

Likewise, having run TTA under CT, MT, T4, and T20, it played very differently under each... due entirely due to rules effects.

Each rules set brings with it assumptions about the nature of the universe; changing rulesets changes these base assumptions. How dangerous is a .22? Or a .50Bizley? Or a Laser Rifle? Or a Ship's Laser?