Why hydrogen?

[Klaus Kipling]

We know that jump drives use (preferably refined) h2 for jump fuel, and that power plants use the same.

We know from this version of Traveller that most of the h2 used in jump is used to inflate the jump bubble.

But why h2?

This is just idle speculation, but could it be something to do with the fact that if you strip the electron from a hydrogen atom, you're left with a proton? Is this some useful handwavium we can use to embellish our MTU jump theories?

 

[Imperator58]

It's the most common element in the Solar System and a useful energy source.
Sometimes the simplest answers are the best.

 

[EDG]

It's the most common element in the Solar System

In the Universe actually... but yeah, that's about right.

 

[Jeff Hopper]

Why hydrogen?

Why not hydrogen?

 

[simonh]

Why hydrogen?

Why not hydrogen?

Plenty of reasons why not. Water is far more abundant than 'raw' hydrogen and more easily processed. H2 is also a nightmare to store, which is the main reason why H2 powered vehicles haven't taken off. You have to freeze it to incredibly low temperatures to liquefy it, and it's so light that most materials are permeable to it, even many metals given time.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Ishmael]

How about ammonia?
Crack out the hydrogen for the fusion plants and use the nitrogen for coolant and reaction mass......
It can still be found in quantity in GG's
Relatively easily stored

its toxic and can be used to make bombs, which fulfills stereotypical properties of a fuel

it was even used as the fuel for the X-15 project

 

[TrippyHippy]

Why hydrogen?

Why not hydrogen?

Plenty of reasons why not. Water is far more abundant than 'raw' hydrogen and more easily processed. H2 is also a nightmare to store, which is the main reason why H2 powered vehicles haven't taken off. You have to freeze it to incredibly low temperatures to liquefy it, and it's so light that most materials are permeable to it, even many metals given time.

Simon Hibbs

Is water more abundant than hydrogen in the whole universe? Most planets in the solar system hardly have any liquid water at all - and the gas/frozen stuff usually found isn't that abundant is it? My understanding is that about 3/4 of all matter in the universe is hydrogen, however.

Moreover, isn't Hydrogen the 'fuel' component of water anyway?

Maybe liquid hydrogen is difficult to store, but in a sci-fi setting where we accept the notion of jump drives and gravity manipulation, is it so hard to believe?

 

[simonh]

Is water more abundant than hydrogen in the whole universe? Most planets in the solar system hardly have any liquid water at all - and the gas/frozen stuff usually found isn't that abundant is it? My understanding is that about 3/4 of all matter in the universe is hydrogen, however.

True, but you don't find lumps of hydrogen lying about - it's unbelievably volatile. Gas giants are about your only bet for the pure stuff.

Moreover, isn't Hydrogen the 'fuel' component of water anyway?

For fusion, yes.

Maybe liquid hydrogen is difficult to store, but in a sci-fi setting where we accept the notion of jump drives and gravity manipulation, is it so hard to believe?

All perfectly true, I'm not saying it's unbelievable that hydrogen is used - it's perfectly believable - only that if you actually had a choice you'd almost certainly choose something else. Therefore there needs to be a specific reason why they use hydrogen as against, say, water.

Simon Hibbs

 

[ninthcouncil]

I've just started up a MongTrav game, and almost the first question one player asked was - "Why don't they use Antimatter?"

Answer 1 - (wave hands) It's not proved to be a safe or practicable form of power even a few thousand years into the future.

Answer 2 - Traveller attempts to replicate some of the paradigms of the Age of Sail (long travel times and no instant communications, practical piracy, bladed weapons as common shipboard armament :roll: ) in a far future SF environment. As an analogue for wind power, you thus need a source of fuel which is plentiful, cheap, and can if necessary be collected in the "wild". Antimatter is an unsuitable choice for this, so it can't be allowed to be the power source of choice...

 

[CosmicGamer]

Is water more abundant than hydrogen in the whole universe? Most planets in the solar system hardly have any liquid water at all - and the gas/frozen stuff usually found isn't that abundant is it? My understanding is that about 3/4 of all matter in the universe is hydrogen, however.

True, but you don't find lumps of hydrogen lying about - it's unbelievably volatile. Gas giants are about your only bet for the pure stuff.

Moreover, isn't Hydrogen the 'fuel' component of water anyway?

For fusion, yes.

Maybe liquid hydrogen is difficult to store, but in a sci-fi setting where we accept the notion of jump drives and gravity manipulation, is it so hard to believe?

All perfectly true, I'm not saying it's unbelievable that hydrogen is used - it's perfectly believable - only that if you actually had a choice you'd almost certainly choose something else. Therefore there needs to be a specific reason why they use hydrogen as against, say, water.

Simon Hibbs

I thought water could be used?

If you want something to grasp onto, how about this
- try pouring unrefined oil into the gas tank of a gasoline engine powered car
- run your hydrogen fuel cell car using a steam engine (water) instead

 

[klingsor]

Antimatter is TL16 or maybe even 17. They are still experimenting with it (Plot Hook: 0.5g (or less) of antimatter has gone missing).

 

[tneva82]

Therefore there needs to be a specific reason why they use hydrogen as against, say, water.

How much water there is in our solar system outside earth? How many earth-like planets have we found? Maybe water isn't as easy to find in other systems as hydrogen is.

 

[atpollard]

Hydrogen is easier to make into a plasma than many other elements and most compounds. Plasma will naturally 'stick' to an iron plate.

Starship hulls are made of Hard Steel (at VERY low TLs), Crystalized Iron at moderate TLs, and parially colapsed Iron (Superdense) at higher TLs - Even Planetoid hulls require the Iron asteroids for fusion tunneling.

Impurities in the Hydrogen will weaken the plasma bubble increasing the risk of the Hull contacting Jumpspace - with bad results.

Thus, hulls are made from Iron and protected from Jumpspace by a refined hydrogen plasma layer.

[At least that's how it works in My Traveller Universe.]

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

If you want the fuel in the tanks to be water, or ammonia, then do it.

Hydrogen is good stuff for fusion (you get the most energy release from fusing hydrogen into helium). What form it is stored in is up to you the GM. Your players think that Meta-Stable Metallic Hydrogen is what it should be, then go for it. Doesn't change a single rule.

IMTU, I never liked the liquid hydrogen thing either, I said it was water or ammonia. The Fuel Processor separated the stored fuel into hydrogen for fusion and "everything else" for coolant or waste products. Amazingly, my game worked just fine...

 

[GamerDude]

Is water more abundant than hydrogen in the whole universe? Most planets in the solar system hardly have any liquid water at all - and the gas/frozen stuff usually found isn't that abundant is it? My understanding is that about 3/4 of all matter in the universe is hydrogen, however.

THAT is a question for EDG... He's the one with the Ph.D. in Planetary Sciences (or something similar).

And no, that's not a jab... he is the expert on the forums as far as planetary science and such goes.

 

[Shiloh]

Hydrogen has a density of 71g/L (at 20 K). Water is (by mass) 2/18ths hydrogen, so every litre of (cold, liquid) water contains about 111g (ca. 1.5x as much H per litre), so if you absolutely *have* to use H (for whatever reason) and you can liberate the hydrogen rapidly enough for whatever process you're trying to run, and you can store the O2, then water is a denser source of hydrogen than l-hyd...

Methane is 25% by mass Hydrogen, and a bit less than half as dense as water, if you cool it to 80-odd K (or apply sufficient pressure). Steam Reforming takes 2mole water per mole Methane to release 4mole H2 and 1 mole CO2. So (I think) 1dT l-Methane +4dT water releases about 8dT of H2.

Or you could just handwave Methane=>2H2 plus C. That'd use about half the volume of l-hyd tankage (but be carrying a lot more mass). And you wouldn't have to worry about recompressing the "waste gases" (though neither would you get any O2 for life support).

Methane is a pretty abundant compund, and more often found in high densities (GG moons, tundra/subocean clathrates, "natural gas" fields, primitive atmospheres) than hydrogen.

When we say that 75% of the mass of the universe is Hydrogen, that *does* include the mass of Hydrogen that is bound up in compunds like water and methane, not just the free gas and interstellar monatomic H.

 

[TrippyHippy]

When we say that 75% of the mass of the universe is Hydrogen, that *does* include the mass of Hydrogen that is bound up in compunds like water and methane, not just the free gas and interstellar monatomic H.

I know, but Hydrogen is pretty much a universal constant, whereas water isn't. If you need something to rely upon as a source of energy and fuel, when travellelling around the universe, what are you going to pick?

 

[EDG]

I know, but Hydrogen is pretty much a universal constant, whereas water isn't. If you need something to rely upon as a source of energy and fuel, when travellelling around the universe, what are you going to pick?

Actually, you may well want to pick water.

Hydrogen is by far the most common element in the universe, but the problem is that most of it's locked up in stars. What's in the interstellar medium is pretty sparse.

Water at least can be found on gas giant moons and on planets, and they're a lot more accessible than gas giants themselves and stars...

 

[simonh]

I know, but Hydrogen is pretty much a universal constant, whereas water isn't. If you need something to rely upon as a source of energy and fuel, when travellelling around the universe, what are you going to pick?

Sure some planetoids may not have much water, but many of them do. Earth and Venus have plenty and it looks like Mars has loads of ice as well. Some of the gas giant moons are mostly ice and even liquid water - such as Europa.

How many planets, moons or asteroids have abundant atomic hydrogen on them? I'll give you a clue, hydrogen is the most volatile element known to man.

Oh and this thread isn't about using hydrogen, or anything else, as a fuel.

Simon Hibbs

 

[TrippyHippy]

Oh and this thread isn't about using hydrogen, or anything else, as a fuel.

Um. Yes it is.

We know that jump drives use (preferably refined) h2 for jump fuel, and that power plants use the same.

We know from this version of Traveller that most of the h2 used in jump is used to inflate the jump bubble.

But why h2?