Where is the thread about chauvinistic abuse?

[Trigati]

Well. That is not the fine art of discussion, but brutal censorship.

If you have the feeling, that some of your authors made a mistake by writing political offensive passages in one of your products, why do you not stand as a man and take your part in the discussion instead of annihilating it?

The offensive paragraphs in the Earth Alliance Fact Book are nothing to be proud of, that is sure. But an open discussion of some shortcomings and how to avoid them in future releases is exactly what is needed. You will not be able to heal the wound by simply not allowing anyone to speak about it.

By the way: this really is a kind of disturbing (over-)reaction you preferred to choose.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I must disagree with you, Sir. I took my stand in that thread. However, the thread was rapidly turning downhill and the last post made, I am afraid crossed the line.

For what it is worth, I indeed apologise to anyone who felt themselves or their nation (whichever one it happens to be) slighted by the material in the EA book. That was certainly not our intention.

 

[Trigati]

Then why did you not edit the last, most offensive post and mark the whole thread 'locked', so that the discussion up to this point could still be read?

Just cutting out a thread like that just keeps the trolls coming (as can be seen in other Forums).

Please, leave it there to read, but close it for new posts.

 

[Aker]

This thread is a dead horse but censorship is never a good solution :?

 

[Anonymous]

I see that Mongoose is giving us a slight shrug and a "sorry...". How about actually doing something to rectify the situation. :x A 1 page pdf errata on the section could solve all this mess. Why hasn't something like this been forthcoming?

:twisted: Jack

 

[MongooseMatt]

Okay. . . What would you like to see in such an errata?

 

[Morden]

Okay. . . What would you like to see in such an errata?

As someone with a strong German heritage, I recommend something like this:

People of the world today are righteously sensitive to the point where reading fictional material about their country of origin or heritage causes unwanted pangs of national guilt. Because of this, we are removing all nationality descriptions from the game. The world is now peaceful happy Disneyland kind of place where everyone gets along and no countries have ever gone to war or unjustly murdered over 6 million non-combatants of a particular ethnic group. In fact, the real world is so lacking conflict that we're going to errata the show itself and make it politically correct once and for all. From this point forward, only alien robots are evil.

 

[psyclonejack]

As someone with German-linage, dating a woman with German-linage, and living in a section of the United States with strong German ties. I agree with you Baraendur. Your answer was insightful, has a well written edge, to the point, and full of passion. Much like the roleplaying tips Mongoose published addressing the German mindset. So, I second your recommendation and hope it can be posted with godspeed.

Thanks all,
PsycloneJack

 

[Trigati]

This thread is a dead horse but censorship is never a good solution :?

Censorship is just plain wrong.

Restore the original thread, so that others have the chance to follow the arguments there, but keep it locked, so that it will not become a playground for trolls.

 

[Chobbly]

People of the world today are righteously sensitive to the point where reading fictional material about their country of origin or heritage causes unwanted pangs of national guilt. Because of this, we are removing all nationality descriptions from the game. The world is now peaceful happy Disneyland kind of place where everyone gets along and no countries have ever gone to war or unjustly murdered over 6 million non-combatants of a particular ethnic group. In fact, the real world is so lacking conflict that we're going to errata the show itself and make it politically correct once and for all. From this point forward, only alien robots are evil.

Don't forget that the aliens were mistreated by society, and thus are not inherently evil. :?

Seriously, the wording of such an article is not an easy task. If it is worded to 'apologise' (words in quotes for specific reasons) for making the national traits national, then that would give the impression to those that are happy with them that Mongoose are pandering to those that scream and shout, like on that other thread.

There isn't much in the way of a win in this for Mongoose, IMHO. But, here's an idea...

The description of regional histories and traits are intended to be an extrapolation of current and historical situations, as they would exist in the world of Babylon 5. Such regional settings take into account some elements of history that some players and gamesmasters may disagree with. None of the presented histories are intended in any way to be a slur on the inhabitants of any of the citizens and inhabitants of any current, 'real' countries and regions concerned.

It is important to remember that this setting, Earth and the cosmos as exists in Babylon Five, is not real. It is over two hundred years in the future, after the involvement of Earth in alien affairs. There has been a global war, several terrorist incidents with nuclear weapons, and a war that pushed humanity to the brink. This is NOT the current world in which we live. It is intended to be a wholly fictional, future version of the world in which we live.

One of the enduring themes of the show is of history repeating itself, nowhere more than the historical associations of the Nightwatch and Frederick Lantz. It may be that some players and fans of Babylon 5 draw conclusions between this fictional setting and the reality of life. There is little that can be done about this; as any Babylon Five fan knows, altering perception is the role of the Psi-Corps. We could not, and would not hope to, dictate the perception you should have. That is your own opinion.

The racial feats, and their relationship to certain races, are only meant as a guide, and reflect some of the established historical traits of a given area or culture. Not all Englishmen and women have Savouire-Faire. Not all Americans are Jack-of-all-trades. Not all Germans are militaristic. We do not condone, in any way, the reinforcement of prejudiced or unfair stereotypes in your own lives and experiences. However, at the same time, the game is fictional, set in a fictional universe featuring faster than light technology, organic alien space craft and time-travel.

The selection of racial feats is, as always, up to the gamesmaster. If your gamesmaster decides that he wishes to disregard the printed history, well, that is fine. If your gamesmaster chooses to unhook the racial traits linked to the regions concerned, that is fine as well. It is an important point to make that IT IS YOUR GAME.

The published and official history may be approved by Warner Bros, but it is the responsiblity of your gamesmaster to decide on the setting for the game.

Regardless of whether you liked or disliked the history as presented of Earth in Babylon 5, we trust that there is plenty of other items in the Babylon Five universe that you will continue to have an interest in.

Including Disney Planet.

Would that sort of thing be what people expect? It in no way does disservice to the (contrary to troll-esque opinions) good job that has been done on the Earth book, regardless of personal opinions.

And, on the subject of locking threads, this ain't no public forum. It's run on Mongoose servers, by Mongoose personnel, AFAIK. Thus, they can lock the threads they like. Me, I'm surprised that the troll thread I mentioned earlier hasn't been taken out and nuked from orbit. Just to be sure

Sorry to any Mongoose personnel, but this whole topic is dragging down the (B5 parts of the) boards. The top three threads are very often still related to the historical and trait elements.

Chobbly

 

[jadrax]

Okay. . . What would you like to see in such an errata?

I think the most effective way to do a section covering nationalities would be to discribe the nations and recent, (IE after present day,) history of thouse nations without trying to discribe the people.
Its not like we need discriptions of what human beings are, we are humans, we well know just how bad some people can be.
There are some good facts about nations in the writeups already, things i can use like legal system pointers, types of common industry, etc.
Basically I like, facts.
Its just the national steriotypes that IMO need cutting.

Then moving on to the feats, i really would just drop the national idea and make them just extra feats. Apart from the fact there borderline raceist, The ones given make little sense anyway, and I can't see a way of alocating them that makes any real sense without getting carried away. Why give things based on geographical terrain by making a list of countries with that terrain when you can just say, you grew up in a heavly wooded region, you can have Forester.

Obviously thats a pretty hefty errata though. Idealy i would like a second eddition of the book, but god only knows if it would sell.

 

[Trigati]

There isn't much in the way of a win in this for Mongoose, IMHO. But, here's an idea...

Your idea might suffice to put the disputed paragraphs in a less offensive light. The chauvinistic views expressed in them, however, remain still a sad exposure of a miseducated and prejudiced mind.

And, on the subject of locking threads, this ain't no public forum. It's run on Mongoose servers, by Mongoose personnel, AFAIK. Thus, they can lock the threads they like. Me, I'm surprised that the troll thread I mentioned earlier hasn't been taken out and nuked from orbit. Just to be sure

The problem here is not at all the locking of possibly offensive threads by Mongoose, but the selective deletion of one (of already quite a handful) of those threads regarding the "nationality problem". To lock a thread is perfecty in order to close a discussion that may have devolved.

To delete a discussion on a very sensitive matter and leave other threads in the forum is definitely not in order. To delete the thread regarding the abuse of my home country and leave other threads regarding other nations in the Forum is really a new level of abuse, which Mongoose should readily give up by restoring the LOCKED original thread.

Censorship is still just plain wrong!

 

[hassanisabbah]

My advice, is just to say sorry and say it'll never happen again.

It isn't the nationality feats that are the problem it sthe way in which the nationalitys are presented, regardless of whether you can laugh at your own nation or not, the problem is that it just disappoints. I expect a much higher level of quality and sensibility from Mongoose. Part of the problem is that a history and culture of an entire nation can not be reduced to a single paragraph - and resorting to sterotypes simply fails to provide anything interesting in way of gaming material.

Some people can say others are over reacting, but its a case that I expect better of anyone in a position to diseminate information, particually in regards to race and culture.

But most importantly - The Book barring these few pages is absolutely fantastic, better than anything except maybe JD or OGL Horror (we shall see) - even the historical time line is fantastic (which doesn't seem to bear out the nationality write ups to well).

Still its been nice to take part in what is an interesting discussion,

Happy Huntings and prehaps its time to move on now





All the crys of reprints are crazy, theres no call for that or for a pdf.

 

[Morden]

Just in case anyone reading my earlier post isn't familliar with me from other boards, don't take anything I say seriously. Unless I mean it seriously. Most people should be able to figure out the difference with little difficulty.

 

[Trigati]

Just in case anyone reading my earlier post isn't familliar with me from other boards, don't take anything I say seriously. Unless I mean it seriously. Most people should be able to figure out the difference with little difficulty.

Too late. (Maybe "taking everything serious" and "not even understanding the concept of 'humour' at all" are somewhat more accurate german traits? :wink: )

 

[Morden]

Too late. (Maybe "taking everything serious" and "not even understanding the concept of 'humour' at all" are somewhat more accurate german traits? )

Hmm, not a fan of satire are we? That's okay, the English didn't understand it in the 1700's when Jonathan Swift submitted A Modest Proposal. Humanity hasn't really evolved since then, so why should I expect people to understand it in this day and age? On the plus side, monkeys are easily trained to push buttons but it was a real accomplishment teaching them the far more refined art of righteous indignation.

Perhapse it isn't the criticism of the message in the book that I mock, but people's overboard reaction to it. Or, to dumb it down a level for those who still don't get it, taking offense to something this minor is offensive in itself.

 

[Wulfhere]

Okay. . . What would you like to see in such an errata?

Bring some true usual name för the countrys. Gretchen was maybe a more comon name in the 16 Century.Don`t use a special national feat bring a list and let the GM and Player choose from it. Bring some real point`s of history for the countrys

Germany ..the newdemocratic state proved totaly uninterested in engaging in further military action instead concentrating on establishing itself as an economic and manufacturing center

We are the 3rd stongest economy of the world and must establish us :roll: we are the greatest exporting nation of the world and establish us as a manufacturing center :roll: Nice idea.
Be honest at last the real gone history should stand in a corect way :wink:
This is definetly also for all other country`s the same point
On a third look Venezuela is a good point as such a theme can be handled.
If you bring such a kind of errata I will say ok.
:idea:
AND PLEASE MAKE SUCH A MISTAKE NOT AGAIN- It`s not funny ore amusing

 

[Anonymous]

Okay. . . What would you like to see in such an errata?

Bring some true usual name för the countrys. Gretchen was maybe a more comon name in the 16 Century.Don`t use a special national feat bring a list and let the GM and Player choose from it. Bring some real point`s of history for the countrys

Germany ..the newdemocratic state proved totaly uninterested in engaging in further military action instead concentrating on establishing itself as an economic and manufacturing center

We are the 3rd stongest economy of the world and must establish us :roll: we are the greatest exporting nation of the world and establish us as a manufacturing center :roll: Nice idea.
Be honest at last the real gone history should stand in a corect way :wink:
This is definetly also for all other country`s the same point
On a third look Venezuela is a good point as such a theme can be handled.
If you bring such a kind of errata I will say ok.
:idea:
AND PLEASE MAKE SUCH A MISTAKE NOT AGAIN- It`s not funny ore amusing

I'm guessing that you definitely won't appreciate the humour we get out of foreigners messing up our language either then?

 

[jadrax]

I'm guessing that you definitely won't appreciate the humour we get out of foreigners messing up our language either then?

Why don't you give writeing his language a go?

 

[Trigati]

I'm guessing that you definitely won't appreciate the humour we get out of foreigners messing up our language either then?

Why don't you give writeing his language a go?

Ja, das wäre wahrscheinlich äußerst amüsant und witzig.

Or try writing it in Chinese, Hebrew, Cyrillic or Arabic, so that not only the people with Latin-based languages get a good laugh.

Remember: everyone is a foreigner in all of the countries of the world but one!

And regarding the "messing up our language" I suppose the native speakers of "your" language are proving that they can do this quite sufficiently themselves. So there is actually no need for "foreign labour" to achieve this.