Legal, Ethics and Moral Concerns About Clones

[Shardan13]

There have been some discussions about clones already but this discussion involves some legal, ethical and morality questions.
Some starter questions (and possible starting seeds for adventures!)

1) Should a clone be considered to be a separate legal entity from the original even if they have the same memories? This has implications for debts, inheritance, ownership and taking over the original's life.

2) If increased TL makes it economically feasible to clone body and mind what some would call elite people (great sport stars, brilliant scientist, famous actors) wouldn't a team of them be better (Imagine every imperial physics research base you visited was staffed by a team of Sir Issac Newtons!)

3) What do the spiritual groups think of clones with the same memories of the original. Do the the clone and original share a soul? Both have separate souls? Do clones have souls?

4) A warrior male aslan dies in honorable combat. Does cloning the warrior reduces the warrior's honor? If the cloning was done by an enemy force can it be considered a war crime?

5) Outside of Imperial controlled space is it ethical to use clones with cloned minds in experiments of free will?

Just interested in what the community thinks about these issues and feel free to add your own!

 

[CordwainerFish]

Bibliography:
Brave New World / Aldous Huxley
Cyteen / C. J. Cherryh

 

[ottarrus]

There have been some discussions about clones already but this discussion involves some legal, ethical and morality questions.
Some starter questions (and possible starting seeds for adventures!)

1) Should a clone be considered to be a separate legal entity from the original even if they have the same memories? This has implications for debts, inheritance, ownership and taking over the original's life.

2) If increased TL makes it economically feasible to clone body and mind what some would call elite people (great sport stars, brilliant scientist, famous actors) wouldn't a team of them be better (Imagine every imperial physics research base you visited was staffed by a team of Sir Issac Newtons!)

3) What do the spiritual groups think of clones with the same memories of the original. Do the the clone and original share a soul? Both have separate souls? Do clones have souls?

4) A warrior male aslan dies in honorable combat. Does cloning the warrior reduces the warrior's honor? If the cloning was done by an enemy force can it be considered a war crime?

5) Outside of Imperial controlled space is it ethical to use clones with cloned minds in experiments of free will?

Just interested in what the community thinks about these issues and feel free to add your own!

There are LOTS of references to clones, their rights, the societal issues in cloning, and so forth all through sci-fi. You'll have no problem finding discussions about them.
As for the OTU, every sentient biological being in the Imperium is an Imperial Citizen [tm], for however much or little that citizenship is worth. In Agent of the Imperium, Marc Miller discusses aspects of cloning that lots of us find objectionable. Things like purposely creating clones as slave labor, inheritable debts for clones, garnishing 100% of the wages of clones to repay the cloning process, genetically engineering clones with limited lifespans and so forth.
The other end of the spectrum is Duke Norris Aledon, who chose not to marry but to clone his heir instead. He insists that the clone be 'natural' in that there was to be no political indoctrination [beyond parental influence] and he insisted that the clone be female so that she'd develop an individual mindset and beliefs. In almost every single metric, Seldrian Aledon is her own person and able to make and be responsible for her own decisions.
So, your questions in order:
1. All of this tells me that the Third Imperium does not have an Imperial policy or laws specifically relating to clones. It extends the protections of citizenship, but the Imperium only interferes with the internal affairs of a member world when it is in the Imperium's interests to do so. To date, the rights of clones have not become an Imperium-wide issue needing Imperial intervention.
Therefore, if a clone can escape the world where they are treated as property, all they need do is never return to that world. They might require a good lawyer and a new identity to escape bounty hunters, but if they can get offworld they stand a pretty good chance of remaining free.

2. 'Cloning greatness' has never really been brought up in Traveller. But remember that greatness is only partially nature... there is some nurture that goes into the mix as well. Albert Einstein was a product of all the influences of his life: his parents, his friends, his teachers, his employers, his wife. He was also influenced by the society that bred him... It was not easy to be a Jew, even a secular Jew, in Imperial Germany. Many Jews sought sanctuary in the sciences and academia, but there was still a lot of prejudice and bias that he had to deal with. So I suggest to you that trying to clone a genius or star athlete only gets you half the way to replicating that person.
There was, btw, a movie that supposed that someone with Hitler's genetic code could reproduce the dictator by producing several children and having them raised in as close to Hitler's lousy childhood as possible. The film was called 'The Marathon Man' was put out in 1976. This was an era that saw an awful lot of books and movies about somebody trying to re-create the Third Reich. I've linked the film below.

3. I would suspect that religious and spiritual groups would be just as conflicted and contrary as they are now in regards to clones. Some find no issues with clones or cloning, others will think the whole thing is anathema. And it's probably on a world-by-world basis.

4. I think that the Aslan would find the idea of cloning a -ko or a heroic warrior repugnant and certainly contrary to the rulings of the Tlaukhu. This sort of thing was resolved in the Aslan Cultural Wars.

5. Outside the Imperium is probably the same as inside... a wide range of attitudes and beliefs about clones and cloning.

Marathon Man (film) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Shardan13]

Ottarrus thanks for the movie reference. The main reason I'm asking these questions is that in my own personal experience of Traveller these questions weren't brought up or explored. Everything was "can we" instead of "should we". The questions were simply a jumping off point for others to add more questions.

I'm aware that environment is part of development of a person but the possibility of high tl capable of copying the entirety of a person has caught my attention ever since an old x-factor comic reintroduced Bishop's sister as a hologram file and in the letters section someone raised the question of multiple copies of the file. The possibility to "photocopy" a person can lead to nightmare scenarios which may lead to some thought provoking adventures for the average Traveller group.

 

[Geir]

I was thinking you meant The Boys from Brazil

The Boys from Brazil (film) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ottarrus]

Ottarrus thanks for the movie reference. The main reason I'm asking these questions is that in my own personal experience of Traveller these questions weren't brought up or explored. Everything was "can we" instead of "should we". The questions were simply a jumping off point for others to add more questions.

I'm aware that environment is part of development of a person but the possibility of high tl capable of copying the entirety of a person has caught my attention ever since an old x-factor comic reintroduced Bishop's sister as a hologram file and in the letters section someone raised the question of multiple copies of the file. The possibility to "photocopy" a person can lead to nightmare scenarios which may lead to some thought provoking adventures for the average Traveller group.

Happy to address some of the moral and ethical issues instead of just the scientific ones. I've always thought [and advocated] that REAL Sci-Fi isn't dreadnoughts, blasters, and swoopy space fighters, it's about asking the moral and ethical questions of not only 'should we' but also 'how the Hell do we deal with this now that somebody popped open Pandora's Box like a beer at the bar'.
For every 'cloning' or 'birthing creche' world in Charted Space where everything is hunky-dory and everyone is stupidly happy, there ought to be at least three BladeRunner type worlds where things didn't go so smoothly.
As an aside, we have reached the point in the Human Genome Project where doctors can now design a gene to correct a given individual's genetic problems. We're not only editing genes, we're creating a new gene to modify people while they live. This therapy was just announced this week from the University of Iowa. And while there are great health benefits to this, you just KNOW people are already thinking about monetizing gene therapy to accelerate evolution or custom edit someone to not get older or any one of the solid dozen nightmare scenarios that have been thought up since Jules Verne and HG Wells.

 

[ottarrus]

I was thinking you meant The Boys from Brazil

The Boys from Brazil (film) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Much the same plot. Like I said, there was a real craze about a Fourth Reich between about 73 and 85. A lot of is was brought about by Weisenthal's Nazi hunting and I'm sure the Eichmann trial was one of the seeds of it.

 

[Shardan13]

As an aside, we have reached the point in the Human Genome Project where doctors can now design a gene to correct a given individual's genetic problems. We're not only editing genes, we're creating a new gene to modify people while they live. This therapy was just announced this week from the University of Iowa. And while there are great health benefits to this, you just KNOW people are already thinking about monetizing gene therapy to accelerate evolution or custom edit someone to not get older or any one of the solid dozen nightmare scenarios that have been thought up since Jules Verne and HG Wells.

This just rises the question of what happens when the duplicate (can't call it a clone now if there significant genetic differences) is designed to be genetically better than you. Similar but worse than a sibling who keeps physically out performing you.

Edit: Just had the thought that it would be a twist in a series of adventures the rival party to the travellers is their better verison duplicates with higher physical and mental scores and the genetic modifier of better looking from the CSC.

 

[Condottiere]

It's a tricky issue, if not thorny.

It levels up deep faking from illusion to reality, if it involves not only physically recreating a person, but also imprinting a personality on it.

You could grow clones for any number of purposes, whether slave labour, spare parts, or food.

Their status and rights could change between jurisdictions and societies.

 

[ottarrus]

Scary, eh?

 

[Shardan13]

It's a tricky issue, if not thorny.

It levels up deep faking from illusion to reality, if it involves not only physically recreating a person, but also imprinting a personality on it.

You could grow clones for any number of purposes, whether slave labour, spare parts, or food.

Their status and rights could change between jurisdictions and societies.

I agree that it's tricky. I also accept that the 3I probably does not have the tech level to do so yet but you can be certain that the Imperial Government, the mega-corporations and the scientific community are wrestling with the questions.

 

[ottarrus]

I agree that it's tricky. I also accept that the 3I probably does not have the tech level to do so yet but you can be certain that the Imperial Government, the mega-corporations and the scientific community are wrestling with the questions.

So far as the OTU is concerned, that's a mighty big 'if'. The Imperial government is reactionary not proactionary. Beyond some very simple basic absolutes [murder is bad, you can't use NBC weapons in warfare, etc.] the Imperium works very hard at staying out of the business of individual worlds. Oh, they're entirely fine with dropping the Marines on somebody who makes too big an ass out of themselves, but there is a lot of subtle and not-so-subtle effort that goes into preventing interventions. Give the Imperium credit where it's due: they've learned a lot about wielding power [hard and soft] from its own history. Strephon is determined to avoid another Illelish Revolt or Psionic Suppressions.
The Imperium is not social program for the betterment of every sophont inside its borders. It's entire premise is to create conditions wherein every sophont has the chance to better themselves, if not on one world than on another. It is trying to walk the middle line between rigid social control [the Vilani] and so little control that the brain doesn't know it has cancer until the limbs fall off [the Rule of Man]. It CANNOT dictate conditions on each world and even if it did, it does not possess the troops [either police or military] to enforce thing if they did.
So while the Imperial scientific community is wrestling with the consequences of cloning [and by that I mean ALL the applicable sciences, from genetic to sociological] and the megacorps want to monetize it to a fare thee well, the Imperial government is using every means available to provide a soft limit on things... If an institution pushes things too far, they'll find funding reduced, regulators on their doorstep, social activists picketing their facilities, etc. All that provides a soft 'ne plus ultra' line and it's WAY cheaper in men and material than letting things get out of hand and having to send in the military.

 

[Condottiere]

It's likely to get religious.

Those for traditional childbirth, and not messing around majorly with genes.

 

[Micky]

yeah that is an interesting topic isn't it. Much like Artificial Intelligence. A gold mine of setting based.. role playing possibilities. Have I said I really can't wait till we see Singularity.

It isn't just the gee wiz of Traveller with higher the RL tech levels and all that comes with it that sort of is .. unimaginable to us.. thus a funhouse mine of the purest gold begging to be extracted for a role playing game setting but all that would come with the high TL's. Not just the cool weapons, the bitchin' ships able to jump further/faster, but how sophants, and humans would react to those high levels of technology and how they might actually change sophants. Has that really been covered at all with Traveller yet? DId any of the Sci-Fi RPG? Not that I've seen so yeah... let me say it again.. I am REALLY looking forward to Singularity.

 

[Sigtrygg]

There have been some discussions about clones already but this discussion involves some legal, ethical and morality questions.
Some starter questions (and possible starting seeds for adventures!)

1) Should a clone be considered to be a separate legal entity from the original even if they have the same memories? This has implications for debts, inheritance, ownership and taking over the original's life.

The original can declare a clone their legal heir, if they don't then the clone is not their legal heir.

2) If increased TL makes it economically feasible to clone body and mind what some would call elite people (great sport stars, brilliant scientist, famous actors) wouldn't a team of them be better (Imagine every imperial physics research base you visited was staffed by a team of Sir Issac Newtons!)

If you clone and download the memories of the original -
1 - the cloning process does not produce unlimited identical copies, there are actual physical differences between the members of a clone family decanted together.
2 - unless you edit the personality then every clone is going to consider themselves to be the original, that way lies madness.
3 - quantum uncertainty mean that no copy can be exactly the same personality as the original or each other. You can. however destructively copy the original, so one reproduction can have the exact same quantum state.

3) What do the spiritual groups think of clones with the same memories of the original. Do the the clone and original share a soul? Both have separate souls? Do clones have souls?

The quantum state of the structures in the brain that give rise to consciousness can not be identical. If by soul you mean the unique quantum consciousness that is you then no, clones do not share one soul. Do twins share a soul? That said if the personality is recorded destructively then you can make one copy that is the same identical soul - the question then becomes is this soul transference or have you actually cloned a soul? The original goes to wherever the dead souls go, while the copy is now tied to the wafer or the clone it inhabits. Note every wafer personality will be subtly different.

4) A warrior male aslan dies in honorable combat. Does cloning the warrior reduces the warrior's honor? If the cloning was done by an enemy force can it be considered a war crime?

This becomes cultural. Some cultures will respect the sacrifice and refuse to clone. An enemy stealing the DNA and personality is likely committing a crime according to said culture. other cultures may embrace cloning and personality recording. I posted the creepy example from T5 in the JTAS 14 Finding Immortality thread I started.

5) Outside of Imperial controlled space is it ethical to use clones with cloned minds in experiments of free will?

That all depends on the ethics of the culture. The is no universal good or evil, they are a construct of a culture. The universe itself really doesn't care.

Just interested in what the community thinks about these issues and feel free to add your own!

Humans being humans, some are going to make as much money as possible from clone workforces, others are going to campaign for clone rights. Yet others are going to claim clones are an abomination before god and want their destruction and outlawing.