The OTU - the equivalent to that 1980s TV star after decades of drug abuse

Is the OP even still reading these comments? Based on their last couple posts, I thought they bailed on the whole game? :unsure:
 
I was a casual gamer in the 1980s playing SciFi for fun when the weather was bad. Let RPG mostly laps and only recently looked back into Traveller. And the more I look into it the more it reminds me of those 1980s TV stars that fell on drugs and other problems. They are still around but they have little in common with how you remember them. And like those TV stars - one should maybe look elsewhere.

The Universe is badly designed and has been worked over by so many authors it looks more grotesque than a 1980s starlet after 20 cosmetic surgeries. And has about as much appeal. Tired old tropes that can not change like "British nobility in spaaaace" and a choice of a basic setup that makes it difficult to "Open Airlock, Space Nobel, be a better world" due to lack of an infrastructure that allows for more efficient government systems. Cold War in Space with the evil mind games playing Commi<<<Zhodanie and evil Space Nazis on the Solomani Rim. Not to mention Space Peta and other stuff that makes little sense in civilisations that often have been FTL capabel when naked guys on earth where throwing around overbacked flat bread while howling to their imaginary friends on a misty mountain top.

Add some fans that have more in common with fanatics than with people playing for fun and the setting does not get more appealing but rather more appaling.

The MgT2e game mechanics are sound, technology is useable and the star maps come in handy. Character generation - well the point buy in the Companion is a jump of point that can be developed into something useable by mature players. But the rest? That needs to be treated like Ole Yeller at the end of the movie. Time for a new puppy err universe with new ideas.
There are a ton of different ones, use one of them or roll your own. Mine started as a mgt 1e game which someone said I should publish so I did. The real beauty of trav is it is really modular, so you can use all different parts, mix and match like an old chevy truck.

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That sounds like some of the GURPS Traveller nonsense.

Classic Traveller, MegaTraveller, and TNE didn't do that. The books in those editions described the setting in matter-of-fact terms without author value judgements smeared all over them. That came in with GURPS Traveller. The Solomani were never "nazis", that was entirely a GURPS Traveller invention. Like previously mentioned, they were nationalists in their traditional region of space, they had a real democracy, and they were trying to free themselves from the despotic rule of an absolute monarch. But, they started kicking Vilani imperialists and other aliens out of their space, so the GT writers slapped the nazi label on them.
You and I remember GURPS Traveller very differently.
 
From Supplement 10: The Solomani Rim::
"Beginning with the proven Solomani Hypothesis, the movement reasoned that the pure Terran racial stock was superior and best fit to run the Imperium. Solomani, they claimed, were the original men; all others were degenerate offshoots of the true line...Inside the Solomani Sphere, increasing restrictions were placed on non-Solomani, particularly on non-humans."

From 1982, long before GURPS Traveller.

Alien Module 6, Solomani, has the subtitle "Self-Proclaimed Champions of Human Supremacy" on the cover.
"Solomani Cause: The concept that Solomani, as the original humans of Terra, are best suited to govern all humanity."
"THE SOLOMANI MOVEMENT In general terms, adherents of the cause believe that pure racial humans-Terran humans, the Solomani-are superior to all other humans, and thus best fit to rule the Imperium. Solomani are the original, or true men; all other humans are degenerate offshoots, unfit for the highest positions of power and responsibility."
"Inside the Solomani Sphere, increasing restrictions were placed in non-Solomani, and particularly on non-humans. By extension, the original premise of Solomani superiority carried as a corollary a superiority over non-humans sophonts as well. Solomani political theory became extremely chauvinistic."
"THE SOLOMANI PARTY
The Solomani Party is the only political party permitted within the Solomani Confederation. Membership is restricted to Solomani humans, although non-Solomani (properly registered and certified) can become members if they agree with the prin- ciples of the Party."
From 1986. Again, long before GURPS Traveller.
 
From Supplement 10: The Solomani Rim::
"Beginning with the proven Solomani Hypothesis, the movement reasoned that the pure Terran racial stock was superior and best fit to run the Imperium. Solomani, they claimed, were the original men; all others were degenerate offshoots of the true line...Inside the Solomani Sphere, increasing restrictions were placed on non-Solomani, particularly on non-humans."
The Solomani Hypothesis was presented by a Sylean at Sylea (Capital) to the Sylean Nobility now masquerading as the Third Imperium. The humans of the Terran region were not the ones to suggest it, promote it, or use it to claim dominance, that was the Sylean nobility.

Sylean nobles of Solomani descent used their Solomani blood to claim their superiority and great major race status in the Vilani tradition.

Sylean Solomani Supremacists were granted dukedoms etc when Terra et al joined the Third Imperium within what is now the Solomani Sphere. They brought their Sylean Solomani Supremacist notions with them.

They became the Imperial government of the Solomani Domain, and as the Third Imperium shifted towards a slightly less overtly racist stance the Sylean Solomani Supremacists caused trouble at court. They were eventually granted the Autonomous zone to shut them up and get rid off them - big mistake.
From 1982, long before GURPS Traveller.

Alien Module 6, Solomani, has the subtitle "Self-Proclaimed Champions of Human Supremacy" on the cover.
"Solomani Cause: The concept that Solomani, as the original humans of Terra, are best suited to govern all humanity."
"THE SOLOMANI MOVEMENT In general terms, adherents of the cause believe that pure racial humans-Terran humans, the Solomani-are superior to all other humans, and thus best fit to rule the Imperium. Solomani are the original, or true men; all other humans are degenerate offshoots, unfit for the highest positions of power and responsibility."
"Inside the Solomani Sphere, increasing restrictions were placed in non-Solomani, and particularly on non-humans. By extension, the original premise of Solomani superiority carried as a corollary a superiority over non-humans sophonts as well. Solomani political theory became extremely chauvinistic."
"THE SOLOMANI PARTY
The Solomani Party is the only political party permitted within the Solomani Confederation. Membership is restricted to Solomani humans, although non-Solomani (properly registered and certified) can become members if they agree with the prin- ciples of the Party."
From 1986. Again, long before GURPS Traveller.
Once again, this movement began in the Imperium, on Sylea, and was imposed on the Terran region by Imperial Sylean Solomani Supremacists.

Alien Module 6 like all the Alien modules is written from the biased view of an unreliable Imperial narator. Once you accept that you can start to read between the lines. If you take Imperial propaganda at face value...

The folks at GDW very rarely presented a meta game explanation of the setting, the vast majority is Imperial point of view and shouldn't always be believed at face value.
 
I was a casual gamer in the 1980s playing SciFi for fun when the weather was bad. Let RPG mostly laps and only recently looked back into Traveller. And the more I look into it the more it reminds me of those 1980s TV stars that fell on drugs and other problems. They are still around but they have little in common with how you remember them. And like those TV stars - one should maybe look elsewhere.

The Universe is badly designed and has been worked over by so many authors it looks more grotesque than a 1980s starlet after 20 cosmetic surgeries. And has about as much appeal. Tired old tropes that can not change like "British nobility in spaaaace" and a choice of a basic setup that makes it difficult to "Open Airlock, Space Nobel, be a better world" due to lack of an infrastructure that allows for more efficient government systems. Cold War in Space with the evil mind games playing Commi<<<Zhodanie and evil Space Nazis on the Solomani Rim. Not to mention Space Peta and other stuff that makes little sense in civilisations that often have been FTL capabel when naked guys on earth where throwing around overbacked flat bread while howling to their imaginary friends on a misty mountain top.

Add some fans that have more in common with fanatics than with people playing for fun and the setting does not get more appealing but rather more appaling.

The MgT2e game mechanics are sound, technology is useable and the star maps come in handy. Character generation - well the point buy in the Companion is a jump of point that can be developed into something useable by mature players. But the rest? That needs to be treated like Ole Yeller at the end of the movie. Time for a new puppy err universe with new ideas.
I tend to use the bits I like and change the bits I don't, all by using the power of my imagination.
 
Except for the Vargr, and I would suppose the Hivers, all other major polities have some ideology that keeps them unified.

How that ideology is expressed, would be up to the dungeon master.
 
Traveller has always stayed clear of religion. It does get a mention from time to time.
Within the Third Imperium setting one has to wonder:
how can islam survive contact with the reality that their holy book is completely wrong, requiring a reformation event
christianity would likely continue in one form or another
judaism has survived against all the odds up to now, what's another few thousand years
hinduism has a huge population base, buddism, sikhism and forgive me if I have missed yours.

I have to wonder about the religions of the Vilani, the Zhodani, the minor human races, it can't all be Ancient worship, I mean not many people on Earth today still worship the anunnaki...
 
My point was that the idea that the Solomani Movement and Party were racial supremacists is pretty clearly set forth in Classic Traveller. It is not an invention of GURPS Traveller.

And yes, Classic Traveller was often written from an in-universe viewpoint by narrators who were not always entirely reliable. That also is not something that only later editions had.
 
The Vilani were racial supremacists, the Syleans used their Solomani heritage to legitimise their claim to Imperial succession (the Solomani beat the Ziru Sirka so are superior, right?) and maintained the Vilani superior race distinction.
The Solomani Movement was transplanted from Capital to the Solomani Domain, you would have a hard time convincing me anyone in the Old Earth Union or other states that had nothing to do with the Rule of Man or the new "Third" Imperium even referred to themselves as "Solomani"

Any attempt to label "the Solomani people" as fascists is, to me, ridiculous.
 
The Vilani were racial supremacists, the Syleans used their Solomani heritage to legitimise their claim to Imperial succession (the Solomani beat the Ziru Sirka so are superior, right?) and maintained the Vilani superior race distinction.
The Solomani Movement was transplanted from Capital to the Solomani Domain, you would have a hard time convincing me anyone in the Old Earth Union or other states that had nothing to do with the Rule of Man or the new "Third" Imperium even referred to themselves as "Solomani"

Any attempt to label "the Solomani people" as fascists is, to me, ridiculous.

IMTU, most Solomani aren't, any more than a regular person is now. So,some are, some aren't and many don't think beyond what they're taught
It's SolSec that does most of it, sort of like the PsiCops of Babylon 5.
 
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The Solomani Hypothesis was presented by a Sylean at Sylea (Capital) to the Sylean Nobility now masquerading as the Third Imperium. The humans of the Terran region were not the ones to suggest it, promote it, or use it to claim dominance, that was the Sylean nobility.

Sylean nobles of Solomani descent used their Solomani blood to claim their superiority and great major race status in the Vilani tradition.

Sylean Solomani Supremacists were granted dukedoms etc when Terra et al joined the Third Imperium within what is now the Solomani Sphere. They brought their Sylean Solomani Supremacist notions with them.

Come to think of it, IMTU, the Vilani supremacists are in the areas still of a Vilani cultural majority.
There are a number of places, such as where the Solomani settled and intermarried or where there were a majority of the pre Interstellar Wars population was not Vilani, where that has been long disregarded.
Though they're still taught that this is how the Solomani Confederation feels, for the same reason that the SC teaches that the 3I feels that way (being enemies will do that to you)
 
IIRC, Marc kind of sort of said he was making fun of racists by having everyone being superior to everyone else and the Major Race distinction being obvious nonsense.

There's a lot of stuff that was kind of tongue in cheek (like Aslan being cats) in the original books that is now taking far too seriously.
 
I think Bense and I were talking about two different things.

I was commenting on the value judgments and author bias in GURPS Traveller that wasn't present in Classic Traveller.

The treatment of the Sworld Worlds in GUPRS Traveller is the clearest example.


Let's look at Classic Traveller's description of them first:

The Sword Worlds entry from Supplement 3, The Spinward Marches, pg. 16

"The Sword Worlds are a loose confederation of worlds all colonized in the same era (400-200 PI). Through the centuries, their relationship has varied from fledgling empires to scattered trading pacts, but the worlds have always retained their affinity for each other. The current confederation, with a capital at Joyeuse, has endured the longest (established 852) and maintains its power by allowing a wide latitude in local governmental operations."

The Sword Worlds entry from Supplement 11, Library Data N-Z, pgs. 22

"A loose confederation of worlds in the Spinward Marches, spinward of lmperial space and coreward of the Darrians. The first settlement in the region was on Gram in - 399. By ca. - 200 the settlement of the area was largely complete, and the first interstellar government in the region, the Sacnoth Dominate, was formed in - 186. Consisting of the twenty worlds settled up to that point, the Dominate lasted until - 102, when it was fractured by rebellion into several smaller states. During the ensuing centuries, various Sword World governments rose and fell,sometimes coalescing all the worlds under a single world's domination, sometimes splintering into several small states."

"The First Frontier War brought a desire for cooperation among the various squabbling worlds, and the end of the war saw the formation of the first unified confederation in centuries..." pg. 23


There is exactly one word in these descriptions with a negative connotation: squabbling. The clinical unbiased description of the Sword Worlds and their cultures is clear and factual, and leaves readers to make up their own minds about them.



Now let's review GURPS Traveller's depiction of the Sword Worlds:

GT Behind the Claw, pg. 27

"The Sword Worlds Confederation can be thought of as a large, violent, extended family, in which the various siblings and cousins alternately support one another (usually in beating up some hapless outsider) and attempt to stab one another over some petty dispute or slight."

"...the term “Sword Worlds” sometimes refers to a group of similarly named planets and their brawling inhabitants..."

"...the individual worlds will rally to the Confederation banner in times of danger – all the while bickering, jostling and boasting."


Right away the author establishes the Sword Worlds as violent, treacherous, petty, and by implication, foolish.


GT Behind the Claw, pg. 28

"The new colonies developed a surprisingly homogenous culture based upon a male-dominated and militaristic outlook,..."

"Women in the Sword Worlds are expected to be passive and obedient to their male protectors, while men are bluff and decisive, brave and strong willed. Imperials find the men bigoted, brainless and self important, and rarely meet the women."

"...the very antithesis of the bluff, hairy and honestly aggressive Sword Worlders."


Why did the author feel the need to insert "male-dominated" in there, as a "surprisingly homogenous" trait of all Sword Worlds populations? Why did the author feel the need to insert word "hairy"? Because he felt like crapping on them, as we shall see.

And another:

"The Sword Worlders are too disorganized to be much of a threat to their neighbors, and too busy fighting among themselves to notice. They still can be a major nuisance at times. Trade and diplomacy present problems, as a Sword Worlder expects to be honored and respected for conduct that would get anyone else thrown out into the street."

The author states that the Sword Worlders are so disorganized they can't be a threat to their neighbors, they're so busy fighting that they don't notice how disorganized they are (stupid by implication), they're just a nuisance, and their behavior is terrible. Funny how the author depicts them as violent but so dumb and pathetic that they're only a nuisance. Strong and weak at the same time, hmm.

And finally there's this:

"Sword Worlders see themselves as “real men,” holding to ancient virtues in an age of deceit and corruption. Most others see them as a bunch of testosterone-overdosed loudmouths who don’t seem to have noticed the passage of the last 53 centuries."

The Sword Worlds entry in an official published GT product mocked and degraded the Sword Worlds, something that did not exist in CT. There were a couple of thin veils, like "Imperials think", "Most others", and so on, but those veils are so threadbare as to be invisible. Even the Solomani got off easy compared to the Sworld Worlds.

This is what I mean, and this is what I have a big problem with in GURPS Traveller, besides Kamsii and other silliness. After the clean judgment-free descriptions of Classic Traveller, it was jarring and ugly. This kind of author bias, picking out a people in the setting to crap on and then setting it in canon, is reprehensible.

Years ago, I read through all aliens/races/species writeups in GT because I was thinking about this same author bias. The majority of races in the GT books were hostile xenophobes, but none of them got the mockery and degradation the Sword Worlders did, and none of them were even called racist in the text, as the Solomani were. This even includes the Tezcat, who are so violently xenophobic that they surgically transform people anyone they catch into fake travesties of Tezcat. That level of crazy is off the charts, but the Tezcat were never mocked, degraded, or called racist. This treatment reserved for exactly two peoples in the GT books, the Sword Worlders and the Solomani.



Now let's discuss the Solomani.

Let's not forget that the Solomani Movement was an Imperial phenomenon, starting in the Imperial aristocracy. It was an Imperial political and social issue informed by the Solomani Hypothesis, but driven by a threat to the Imperial Solomani aristocracy's power, that threat being the political empowerment of the Imperial Vilani movers and shakers of the time. It had nothing to do with the Solomani populations of the Solomani Sphere.

CT Alien Module 6 Solomani, pg 10:

"This period of bitter fighting saw the birth of the Solomani Movement. The Civil War, in addition to causing a great deal of destruction, created great social upheaval. Vilani nobles and industrialists began to offer a serious challenge to the entrenched Solomani economic and political structure. The Solomani Movement was a reaction to this challenge."

This is a critically important point. Vilani nobles and industrialists began to offer a serious challenge to the entrenched Solomani economic and political structure, and the Solomani Movement was a reaction to this challenge. Before this, Solomani aristocrats were not oppressing Vilani and non-humans. They didn't have a racial superiority ideology. It was never about people race-hating each other. It was about wealth and power, as always.

When the Empress Margaret I gave the Sphere over to the Solomani "governing body", she gave thousands of worlds and billions of people over to Solomani warrior aristocrats who (from their perspective) had been disempowered and betrayed by the Emperors they served.

CT Alien Module 6 Solomani, pg 10:
"The formation of the Autonomous Region in 704 was intended as a sop to the Movement, whose leaders became the new rulers of the region."

Empress Margaret inflicted these angry powerful anti-Imperial warrior aristocrats on the worlds of the Sphere. She made them the rulers of the Sphere, and they vented their rage on the non-Solomani of the Sphere (doubtless because they blamed Vilani in general for their betrayal, and non-humans by extension). And it all culminated in the Solomani Rim War, which was really another Imperial civil war.

A spectacular own goal.


Look at how Classic Traveller handles this. It's factual, clinical, and thoughtful, almost elegant, like a centuries long tragedy unfolding from the day Admiral Plankwell took his fleet to Capital.


Now let's examine how GURPS Traveller handles the Solomani.


GT Rim of Fire, pg 4

"Even so, many of the issues that drove the Rim setting are still with us: the evils of intolerance, the balance between public law and private freedom, the rightful place of Humaniti in the universe. The Rim can offer us not only rousing adventure, but also the chance to think about things that truly matter."

Right here the author tells us we're getting his bias.


then GT Rim of Fire, pg 8

Solomani agitators spout odd historical propaganda.

Why did the author choose "spout", a word with a negative connotation?

"The Foundation is also interested in uncovering the experiences of people who were simply ignored by recorded history: slaves and working-class people, women on patriarchal worlds..."

Again with the patriarchy.

"...minor races under the First Imperium"

So the Vilani history ignored minor races under the Ziru Sirka. Good thing they're not bigots, like those nuisance Sword Worlders.

Exile House nobles, on the other hand, tend to be radical and combative. As they see it, they were dispossessed by the Solomani government.

They were dispossessed by Empress Margaret I, who made the leaders of the Solomani Movement the rulers of the Sphere. But let's look closely at this. This is a good example of characters in a setting having a certain perspective for solid lore reasons, fully qualified by "As they see it". It's particular people thinking a certain way because of things that happened to them in the lore, not "everybody", or "Imperials", or "most people", which are just fig leaves for author bias.

"They want the Solomani to be punished and prevented from ever causing trouble again."

Something like how the Solomani want the Vilani/Imperials out of their space so they can't disenfranchise them again, but one is the good guy and one is the bad guy.

"...the possibility of the presence of a Vilani Empress on the Rim has driven many radical Solomani into frothing fits." RoF pg. 21

Degrading language again.

"...some observers claim that the real positive effect of Solomani factionalism is that it keeps the Solomani too busy tearing each other down to be a serious threat to their neighbors." RoF pg. 21

Again, strong but weak at the same time because of their own character defects, like the Sword Worlders.

“It is regrettable that the proud name of the Solomani, once associated with the highest Human ideals, has now become a synonym for bigotry and racism." RoF pg. 59

There are other references, but I'm not going to bother. GT products were on the whole well done, and a great addition to Traveller at a time when interest and popularity were flagging, but they really could've done without the kind of writing I'm criticizing.
 
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