The Singularity Kickstarter is Live!

[Sigtrygg]

Call me old fashioned but I prefer primary sources, or references to the primary sources I can check myself...

but enough of the thread drift, tytalan asked an important question with regards to minimum level to gain access.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Here's a more readily accessible source, This is Free Trader Beowulf:

I just kicked off this in my Ancients game and had found this map to use as the eventual outcome.

 

[tytalan]

I have no idea which boxed set you are now referring to.
If MT then this is not true, and if TNE it is not true either.

Excuse me I was wrong the reformed coalition had 20 systems in the original TNE box set and was by far the largest group of worlds in the core of the imperium.

I kinda like the idea that every big adventure series is happening in its own setting and doesn't mix with others. Because honestly, a lot of them wouldn't play well, given how many big changes the PC's may have made. It also lets people who want to play in the rebellion/hardtimes/virus era do that, without making people who feel happy running their little smuggling operation on tehe Solomani rim feel like someone just dropped a bomb on the setting.

my thoughts exactly. Additionally the whole concept of burning down the setting is a false one Mongoose don’t have secret setting police that come to your home and burn all your old setting books and neither have they quit producing the main time period just because they are doing FFW or Pirates of Drinax even though both have major impacts on the setting. The only way this was even a thing at all was because in the early days such major setting changes all came with a new rule set. So what people that argue for no setting changes (ie FFW, Rebellion, TNE, Empress Wave exc) are saying is that those of us who want those options are having the wrong fun and mongoose shouldn’t support our wrong fun.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Excuse me I was wrong the reformed coalition had 20 systems in the original TNE box set and was by far the largest group of worlds in the core of the imperium.

The regency was also a big part of the TNE rulebook.

my thoughts exactly. Additionally the whole concept of burning down the setting is a false one Mongoose don’t have secret setting police that come to your home and burn all your old setting books and neither have they quit producing the main time period just because they are doing FFW or Pirates of Drinax even though both have major impacts on the setting.

This is a very good point.

The only way this was even a thing at all was because in the early days such major setting changes all came with a new rule set. So what people that argue for no setting changes (ie FFW, Rebellion, TNE, Empress Wave exc) are saying is that those of us who want those options are having the wrong fun and mongoose shouldn’t support our wrong fun.

I agree completely. Giving us more options is always a good idea.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Mongoose don’t have secret setting police that come to your home and burn all your old setting books

We will not confirm nor deny this.

So what people that argue for no setting changes (ie FFW, Rebellion, TNE, Empress Wave exc) are saying is that those of us who want those options are having the wrong fun and mongoose shouldn’t support our wrong fun.

This is true.

For our part, we are not looking to advance Charted Space beyond the FFW because a) the reason for doing in that in the first place (revitalising the setting) is not an issue for us and b) Charted Space is huge and there is no way we are going to run two (or more!) sets of support material parallel. That way leads to madness.

So, officially, we are unlikely to touch Rebellion, Virus and all the rest. However, never say never - it is entirely possible that we may do, say, a Pirates of Drinax-style campaign set based in those periods. Not on the cards as yet, but the possibility remains.

However, the core problem is what these eras provide in terms of game play and, compared to 1105, you are really not doing anything different. The backdrop is a little different (in the grand scheme of things) but if you want a more fragmented setting, there are now plenty of places in 1105 that serve the purpose. And if they are not sufficient, move just a little further from the Core, you will find them. The key question is always what do the players do? And if it is more or less the same as they are already doing in 1105... well, then you have to ask what the virtue is of dedicating large page counts to venturing into latter eras.

That is not to say we will never advance the timeline. The current thinking is that, if we do this, it will be way into the future (the far, far future?), like a thousand years or more. However, we are still haunted by the question, what do the players do? And if we do come up with something new and funky, is it still Traveller?

These are the things that keep me awake in the small hours

 

[tytalan]

Strephon didn't start the 4th Imperium. If he survived then the Third Imperium never went away. The Regency, having one of Strephon's descendants is actually a continuation of the Third Imperium.

What is this 4th Imperium of which you speak?

One of GDWs last adventures was about bringing Strephon’s son back to the reformed coalition which than formed the fourth imperium. It’s semi official because it’s based on an adventure but Marc’s T5 acknowledges its existence. Problem is the Timeline is very vague and subject to change after 1201 even 1248 changes depending on the product created back then in one it’s the Reformation Coalition in another it’s the Freedom League this gets even more confusing when you add the empress wave.

 

[boggo2300]

One of GDWs last adventures was about bringing Strephon’s son back to the reformed coalition which than formed the fourth imperium. It’s semi official because it’s based on an adventure but Marc’s T5 acknowledges its existence. Problem is the Timeline is very vague and subject to change after 1201 even 1248 changes depending on the product created back then in one it’s the Reformation Coalition in another it’s the Freedom League this gets even more confusing when you add the empress wave.

The end of Arrival Vengeance (the adventure you're talking about) never mentions anything about the Regency becoming the 4th Imperium. the only 4th Imperium I know of is in the 1248 setting for T20 (the one with evil cyborg Virus allied K'Kree, never trusted 'em!) and in 1248 btw, the RefCo becomes the Freedom League to get away from the bad Star Viking reputation (I only finished reading the 1248 setting sourcebook last week)

 

[tytalan]

We will not confirm nor deny this.



This is true.

For our part, we are not looking to advance Charted Space beyond the FFW because a) the reason for doing in that in the first place (revitalising the setting) is not an issue for us and b) Charted Space is huge and there is no way we are going to run two (or more!) sets of support material parallel. That way leads to madness.

So, officially, we are unlikely to touch Rebellion, Virus and all the rest. However, never say never - it is entirely possible that we may do, say, a Pirates of Drinax-style campaign set based in those periods. Not on the cards as yet, but the possibility remains.

However, the core problem is what these eras provide in terms of game play and, compared to 1105, you are really not doing anything different. The backdrop is a little different (in the grand scheme of things) but if you want a more fragmented setting, there are now plenty of places in 1105 that serve the purpose. And if they are not sufficient, move just a little further from the Core, you will find them. The key question is always what do the players do? And if it is more or less the same as they are already doing in 1105... well, then you have to ask what the virtue is of dedicating large page counts to venturing into latter eras.

That is not to say we will never advance the timeline. The current thinking is that, if we do this, it will be way into the future (the far, far future?), like a thousand years or more. However, we are still haunted by the question, what do the players do? And if we do come up with something new and funky, is it still Traveller?

These are the things that keep me awake in the small hours

Honestly I think you’re doing a disservice to your fan base by doing this, giving the GM/Players a setting book for each of those time periods would help give GMs looking to play in those dynamic eras a nice baseline for them. For example the Rebellion era could do with a Hardtimes sourcebook along with a rough timeline and the TNE could use a coalition book that includes support for virus and other parts of that era. No one is asking you to quit doing other things in the main time period but when you say things like this you are literally telling those of us who like those time periods that we want the wrong fun especially when you say that your just going to ignore those and jump straight to the Far Far Future ie the Galaxiad. It even looks more like your telling us we are have the wrong fun when you say things like go play elsewhere in the setting. This just shows that you don’t understand either of those eras and what made them unique!

It saddens me to think that mongoose would treat a significant portion of Traveller fans this way

 

[boggo2300]

Honestly I think you’re doing a disservice to your fan base by doing this, giving the GM/Players a setting book for each of those time periods would help give GMs looking to play in those dynamic eras a nice baseline for them. For example the Rebellion era could do with a Hardtimes sourcebook along with a rough timeline and the TNE could use a coalition book that includes support for virus and other parts of that era. No one is asking you to quit doing other things in the main time period but when you say things like this you are literally telling those of us who like those time periods that we want the wrong fun especially when you say that your just going to ignore those and jump straight to the Far Far Future ie the Galaxiad. It even looks more like your telling us we are have the wrong fun when you say things like go play elsewhere in the setting. This just shows that you don’t understand either of those eras and what made them unique!

It saddens me to think that mongoose would treat a significant portion of Traveller fans this way

I suspect it's more a case of husbanding limited resources than anything else.

 

[tytalan]

However, the core problem is what these eras provide in terms of game play and, compared to 1105, you are really not doing anything different. The backdrop is a little different (in the grand scheme of things) but if you want a more fragmented setting, there are now plenty of places in 1105 that serve the purpose. And if they are not sufficient, move just a little further from the Core, you will find them. The key question is always what do the players do? And if it is more or less the same as they are already doing in 1105

I suspect it's more a case of husbanding limited resources than anything else.

See that’s not what he’s saying, instead he totally ignores what makes those eras unique and interesting to play in and what they give to the game, both are dynamic eras in which what the players do actually do make a difference and have their own style of play. If it was just a matter of not having the available resources at this time he would not have followed up with this

That is not to say we will never advance the timeline. The current thinking is that, if we do this, it will be way into the future (the far, far future?), like a thousand years or more.

The statement what will the Players do that he keeps repeating ignores that the GM is a player too unfortunately a common attitude these days. As both a GM and a Player I found the Rebellion/Hardtimes era to be far more rewarding than 1105 ever thought to be mostly because it’s such a dynamic time and it was in the backdrop of this Great War and the aftermath of the monolith imperium destroying itself with the players fighting to hold on to the things they value while hopefully pushing back the night just a little. You really can’t do that in some other corner of charted space it just doesn’t work. The stories that the Players and GM can create in that background is just something you can’t do in a smaller scale which is exactly what he claiming you can. And while I’m not a fan of the virus the rest of TNE has its own uniqueness to it, you’re literally trying to rebuild interstellar civilization out of the ashes of this great galactic conflict. Hoping to find other pockets of civilization while hunting for much needed resources. What the players do in TNE can help determine how galactic civilization will be rebuilt.

Both setting go far beyond go find an out of the way corner and run your game there it’s the same, to be honest this is more that a little insulting to those that enjoy those eras.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I found the Rebellion/Hardtimes era to be far more rewarding than 1105 ever thought to be mostly because it’s such a dynamic time and it was in the backdrop of this Great War and the aftermath of the monolith imperium destroying itself with the players fighting to hold on to the things they value while hopefully pushing back the night just a little.

I agree once again. Hard Times remains my favourite setting for the reasons you cite. Players could make a difference, and the referee had the tools to move those differences forward. My second is the Reformation Coalition rebuilding with Hiver help. Lots to discover, and PCs can again make a difference without metaplot dictat.
I am not interseted in the slightest with how MJD thinks the FFW is played out, I did that with many games of the boardgame, and could do so still. I was hoping for the referee and players to be able to make a difference but I am not seeing it so far.

I like Deepnight, and by the looks of it Singularity will be even better.

What I would like to see at the end of it though is to dump PCs into simulated universes... without them knowing

You really can’t do that in some other corner of charted space it just doesn’t work.

I agree, look how much development there has been after The Fall of Tinath...

The stories that the Players and GM can create in that background is just something you can’t do in a smaller scale which is exactly what he claiming you can.

To be fair you could, you could set up a far corner of the galaxy where an empire has collapsed due to civil war, but it loses the connection with The Third Imperium setting.

And while I’m not a fan of the virus the rest of TNE has its own uniqueness to it, you’re literally trying to rebuild interstellar civilization out of the ashes of this great galactic conflict. Hoping to find other pockets of civilization while hunting for much needed resources. What the players do in TNE can help determine how galactic civilization will be rebuilt.

Once you discover how easy it is to deal with Virus, or better yet get Sandman on side, Virus becomes a minor threat in the setting.

Both setting go far beyond go find an out of the way corner and run your game there it’s the same, to be honest this is more that a little insulting to those that enjoy those eras.

I don't think it is insulting, disappointing perhaps.

But imagine the possibilities of JTAS articles or an adventure simulating the Rebellion era, from the initial plotting of Dulinor all the way to the assassination and its immediate aftermath. Or a simulated universe where Virus was let lose... (this is likely to be the easiest one since the dyo chip is in the room next door )

 

[Condottiere]

It allows expansion, if and when, sales drop.

Though I suspect, the past will first be picked over.

 

[tytalan]

I don't think it is insulting, disappointing perhaps.

It’s insulting the way he dismisses our enjoyment of these eras and telling us to just play elsewhere in the setting. There’s a dismissal of the difference stories available and the overall attitude that those of us that like these eras are not worth even bothering with. Matt’s whole post comes off more than a little condescending to those of us unenlightened people that see both eras as having a worth.

 

[Arkathan]

It sounded to me more like We're going to flesh out this section of the timeline and expand coverage of other areas in the Classic era before we go jumping to other eras just to advance a timeline.

 

[tytalan]

It sounded to me more like We're going to flesh out this section of the timeline and expand coverage of other areas in the Classic era before we go jumping to other eras just to advance a timeline.

I don’t see how you get that out of this “ However, the core problem is what these eras provide in terms of game play and, compared to 1105, you are really not doing anything different. The backdrop is a little different (in the grand scheme of things) but if you want a more fragmented setting, there are now plenty of places in 1105 that serve the purpose. And if they are not sufficient, move just a little further from the Core, you will find them. The key question is always what do the players do? And if it is more or less the same as they are already doing in 1105... well, then you have to ask what the virtue is of dedicating large page counts to venturing into latter eras.” the fact that he says your not doing anything different itself projects a lack of understanding of these eras and a disregard for their differences in play.

The current thinking is that, if we do this, it will be way into the future (the far, far future?), like a thousand years or more.

I don’t see how jumping the TL to 18 is going to vastly change play style more than the rebellion and its aftermath does

 

[MasterGwydion]

I don’t see how you get that out of this “ However, the core problem is what these eras provide in terms of game play and, compared to 1105, you are really not doing anything different. The backdrop is a little different (in the grand scheme of things) but if you want a more fragmented setting, there are now plenty of places in 1105 that serve the purpose. And if they are not sufficient, move just a little further from the Core, you will find them. The key question is always what do the players do? And if it is more or less the same as they are already doing in 1105... well, then you have to ask what the virtue is of dedicating large page counts to venturing into latter eras.” the fact that he says your not doing anything different itself projects a lack of understanding of these eras and a disregard for their differences in play. I don’t see how jumping the TL to 18 is going to vastly change play style more than the rebellion and its aftermath does

TL-17 and higher are basically post-scarcity. You need something, you print it. Including fabricators to print other fabricators. That changes play considerably. Your ship always has the parts it needs to be repaired. A settlement needs something, print it. You can outfit a platoon in max TL Battle Dress with max TL weapons.

Yeah, it changes a lot.

 

[Arkathan]

I don’t see how you get that out of this...

How do you see anything else?
I get out of it that they are focusing on the mid 1100 decade, and that it makes more sense, especially for the foreseeable future, to develop areas of the current setting and era that lend themselves to similar play (Edit: to those other setting's styles) rather than advance the timeline just to advance the timeline.
While there may be fans of those eras, there are also people who want nothing to do with them.
A kickstarter style campaign book/bundle makes much more sense for those era settings than pushing the entire franchise forward... twice.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The companion in hardback and pdf form is a reward for my tier, so the companion pdf will definitely be produced.

As things stand (486 backers and £81,273) I conservatively estimate there will be 800+ backers and £150,000+ by the end.

5 days to go - currently on £132,222 with 779 backers.

I really want the £170,000 stretch goal of World Destruction, but unless things pick up massively in the last few days...
are there 200+ people out there waiting to pledge?

And how many extra pledges would a digital all in tier that gets the companion raise?

Reply after reply has been the companion material will be unlocked for pdf backers, but... there is that caveat that the companion will contain extra stuff.

I do not understand why a digital companion, which has to be produced anyway, can't be added to an all in digital tier. I want the books, I get the pdfs free, including the companion pdf, so the companion pdf will exist. Give the customers what they want.

Another question, I already own the Third Imperium book, but a am now thinking of getting the core adventures in print. Will they be a possible post campaign add on or do I just buy them from the Mongoose store?

 

[Endie]

It’s insulting the way he dismisses our enjoyment of these eras and telling us to just play elsewhere in the setting. There’s a dismissal of the difference stories available and the overall attitude that those of us that like these eras are not worth even bothering with. Matt’s whole post comes off more than a little condescending to those of us unenlightened people that see both eras as having a worth.

This is a weird whine from someone who just said that nobody can stop a table having fun the way they want.

Like Matt said, it would take a significant page count and if they ever do it it’ll take a Drinax style commitment, but for now it’s not on the cards.

As you suggest, there’s nothing in the MT rebellion sourcebook (I loved Rebellion) that you can’t use right now with Mongoose Traveller. The story is there for you to use however you want. But Mongoose don’t owe you them gambling a six figure sum (and thereby the health of their company) on such a setting.

And he didn’t dismiss your enjoyment of those eras. You’re straw-manning shamelessly. He just doesn’t see a viable route to profit for such a product right now.

 

[Condottiere]

Instead of having the Rebellion and Virus occur in the Imperium, retcon it to happen in Vargrspace.

No one actually cares what happens there.

And, anything could, and it wouldn't matter.

Computers could get infected with rabies.

And Vargr are inclined to rebel, anyway.