Vorlons cant jump point bomb in 2nd Ed? Scout needed?
- Thread starter Da Boss
- Start date
thePirv said:
Well I just think it was odd that the older races could not if the Younger ones can - not really concerned if it all goes away. But thought it was a additional reason fro them to have a Scout.
re the Shadows - well they do use hyperspace if a different way fading in and out of hyperspace - the Vorlons seem to use normal jump points. Plus I don't think the Shadows are ever content - that is the nature of Chaos?
Ripple said:
So best you folks can do is using one SPECIFIC ship which might or might not have AJP in next edition anyway?
How many patrol AJP's are there out there anyway? Not much...So the tactic itself should not be banned just because of that one ship. Much better solution is to fix blue star...
Sheesh. Some people just can't think better solution than just banning something. Fine. Ban AJP. I say then: Ban crits! They are broken as well. Somebody say ban vorlons then! They are broken! Then ban dilgar! Broken race!
Banning something just because you think it's broken is NEVER best solution. Period. Fact is it is much better to simply fix problems rather than avoiding it by banning it.
While I instictively dislike a call to ban something because it's broken (it's an easy, lazy response- fixing things is harder, but more worthwhile in the long run) I agree it is open to abuse and a not particularly honorable tactic (speaking as an ISA player with 12 Bluestars, 10 Whitestars, a carrier (+10 Fighters) and 2 Victories; I still don't think much of it even though it could work out great for me-25 JPBs in one turn!) I would suggest simply making it an "opponents consent" before the game house rule in the short turn, and apply the 3D rule in the long run "Difficult", "Dangerous", "Desperate"; keep it but make it difficult to pull off, with a non negligable chance of "hurt me plenty" if it fails, so that it is largely a desperation tactic. It sounds as if that is what is being done, so hopefully...
I also would make the AD (semi) dependant on ship size; yes you're still ripping a hole in space, but a smaller hole requires less ripping, or halve the dice for AJP, since they theoretically control the rip better, so cause less "waste energy"
On a side note regarding dodge; I would assume you aren't really dodging the energy wave front, more using your agility to ride it like a surfer (like sailing ships turning and running before a storm)
Regardless of what happens with the process I do think vorlons should have the same opportunity to (mis)use it as any other fleet, so would need a scout
I also would make the AD (semi) dependant on ship size; yes you're still ripping a hole in space, but a smaller hole requires less ripping, or halve the dice for AJP, since they theoretically control the rip better, so cause less "waste energy"
On a side note regarding dodge; I would assume you aren't really dodging the energy wave front, more using your agility to ride it like a surfer (like sailing ships turning and running before a storm)
Regardless of what happens with the process I do think vorlons should have the same opportunity to (mis)use it as any other fleet, so would need a scout
To respond to Tneva...
Best we can do?...um...no apparently you have not been reading all the threads about this since I joined last year or so ago.
Fluff... it required a PRE-PLOTTED spot and a LURE to get this to work for one of the most elite races in the show with some of the most accurate jump engines. This should barely exist in the game, but it is common. Unlike, say crits, which are at least one good explanation for why so many ships blow up so easy.
Game play... 2ed might change this but at least in first ed any ship with a jump point can do it. Some folks have patrol ships with jump points. These ships are getting in effect a free weapon, a triple damage 6 ad one at that. If you don't mind me getting free weapons added to my races patrol ships too I'll take it. Even if it is changed there will be several lower priority ships capable of this attack.
The issue with fixing the blue star rather than the JPB is that the complaints about the bomb have been around a good bit longer than the bluestars. The new ship just added a new level of issue to the debate. The debate had already been addressed once with the addition of randomness to the AJP placement, but that did not change the tactic. They are trying again with the new proposal, and folks are responding that the new proposal while a good thing, does not address the common with the use of the rule.
Hermes could be, and have been, used to jump point bomb. So have Vaarls (fairly accurately under the CQ check thing). I have done it with a jumphawk and a pair of Solarhawks. It can be done effectively with a good number of ships and that was an issue. The second ed thing keeps the same basic issue (no more randomness but a CQ check) but just resrticts the races that can use it. Both the Minbari and the ISA have a number of special rules already...they hardly need an extra weapon.
Ripple
Best we can do?...um...no apparently you have not been reading all the threads about this since I joined last year or so ago.
Fluff... it required a PRE-PLOTTED spot and a LURE to get this to work for one of the most elite races in the show with some of the most accurate jump engines. This should barely exist in the game, but it is common. Unlike, say crits, which are at least one good explanation for why so many ships blow up so easy.
Game play... 2ed might change this but at least in first ed any ship with a jump point can do it. Some folks have patrol ships with jump points. These ships are getting in effect a free weapon, a triple damage 6 ad one at that. If you don't mind me getting free weapons added to my races patrol ships too I'll take it. Even if it is changed there will be several lower priority ships capable of this attack.
The issue with fixing the blue star rather than the JPB is that the complaints about the bomb have been around a good bit longer than the bluestars. The new ship just added a new level of issue to the debate. The debate had already been addressed once with the addition of randomness to the AJP placement, but that did not change the tactic. They are trying again with the new proposal, and folks are responding that the new proposal while a good thing, does not address the common with the use of the rule.
Hermes could be, and have been, used to jump point bomb. So have Vaarls (fairly accurately under the CQ check thing). I have done it with a jumphawk and a pair of Solarhawks. It can be done effectively with a good number of ships and that was an issue. The second ed thing keeps the same basic issue (no more randomness but a CQ check) but just resrticts the races that can use it. Both the Minbari and the ISA have a number of special rules already...they hardly need an extra weapon.
Ripple
The Minbari planned the ambush. They deliberately chose to do it in an asteoid field, and lured the EA fleet into it with a Flyer. From Lurker's guide:
In space, the Lexington and her group have been under hit and run attacks for the past few days. They are all tired and under pressure. They pick up a lone Minbari short range transport and follow it to an asteroid belt, where the transport engines apparently fail, leaving the transport adrift. Sheridan realizes it is a trap, but before the group can break formation a Minbari heavy cruiser jumps in the middle of the group. The hyperspace distortion and the cuirser make quick work of the group, destroying most of the ships in a matter of seconds. The Lexington is hit and loses engines and weapons. Capt. Sterns' chair is hit by flying debris, crushing him to death. The Lexington is left adrift in the asteroid belt, the Minbari thinking it dead already.
Adrift on the Lexington, Sheridan comes up with a desperate plan. He orders three tactical nukes put on asteroids as mines. When they are ready, he sends a distress signal. The Minbari cruiser intercepts the transmission and turns back to destroy the Lexington. Before they can fire, Sheridan detonates the nukes, destroying the cruiser.
So Sheridan used the roids for his nukes, yes. But it was the Minbari who chose the asteroid field as the ideal (only?) place to use the jump point bomb.
In space, the Lexington and her group have been under hit and run attacks for the past few days. They are all tired and under pressure. They pick up a lone Minbari short range transport and follow it to an asteroid belt, where the transport engines apparently fail, leaving the transport adrift. Sheridan realizes it is a trap, but before the group can break formation a Minbari heavy cruiser jumps in the middle of the group. The hyperspace distortion and the cuirser make quick work of the group, destroying most of the ships in a matter of seconds. The Lexington is hit and loses engines and weapons. Capt. Sterns' chair is hit by flying debris, crushing him to death. The Lexington is left adrift in the asteroid belt, the Minbari thinking it dead already.
Adrift on the Lexington, Sheridan comes up with a desperate plan. He orders three tactical nukes put on asteroids as mines. When they are ready, he sends a distress signal. The Minbari cruiser intercepts the transmission and turns back to destroy the Lexington. Before they can fire, Sheridan detonates the nukes, destroying the cruiser.
So Sheridan used the roids for his nukes, yes. But it was the Minbari who chose the asteroid field as the ideal (only?) place to use the jump point bomb.
Greg Smith
Mongoose
The way I see it, the asteroid field made it easier to catch multiple ships in the vortex because they were bunched up in the field. So asteroids aren't neccesary, just helpful.
yep, perhaps add a new rule into JP bombs 
if you pull off a JP bomb in an asteroid field then all ships within it get hit 
lol I am joking but am sure that would really annoy some people, but also play on the fluff on screen as didnt the blackstars JP hit 3-4 ships? killing them.
if you pull off a JP bomb in an asteroid field then all ships within it get hit lol I am joking but am sure that would really annoy some people, but also play on the fluff on screen as didnt the blackstars JP hit 3-4 ships? killing them.
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Burger said:
I'm plaaying Devil's advocate here, but there is no evidence that any of that was REQUIRED, merely that it was used in that instance.
LBH
