Vorlons cant jump point bomb in 2nd Ed? Scout needed?

[Da Boss]

Vorlons and Scouts: They dont need them, the sensors on ALL their ships are at the level that the scout trait portrays anyway (hence +1 to stealth rolls). The shadow scout is a bit different but then again shadows have non beam weapons on some ships. The only real reason to give Vorlons scouts would be to allow them to jump point bomb under the new rules

Vorlons Jump Point Bombing: If any race in the game, from a perspective of gameplay, DOESNT need more ways to inflict damage (while avoiding return fire no less!) its the Vorlons. Theyre already one of the most powerful fleets in the game.

Although they can still can have problems not seeing Stealthed ships, and they only have +3 Initiative and no chance of a Command bonus, the re-roll on set up and who takes first turn (and who fires first) and of course a bit of diversity in the fleet and oh yes AJP bombing - which they can do now (so its NOT a new way of causing damage) but you think they shouldn't in 2nd Ed but other - equally powerful races.....should?
Lastly- and Again I am not a Vorlon player - isn't there complaints that they are not that powerful.........?

 

[Locutus9956]

Vorlons and Scouts: They dont need them, the sensors on ALL their ships are at the level that the scout trait portrays anyway (hence +1 to stealth rolls). The shadow scout is a bit different but then again shadows have non beam weapons on some ships. The only real reason to give Vorlons scouts would be to allow them to jump point bomb under the new rules

Vorlons Jump Point Bombing: If any race in the game, from a perspective of gameplay, DOESNT need more ways to inflict damage (while avoiding return fire no less!) its the Vorlons. Theyre already one of the most powerful fleets in the game.

Although they can still can have problems not seeing Stealthed ships, and they only have +3 Initiative and no chance of a Command bonus, the re-roll on set up and who takes first turn (and who fires first) and of course a bit of diversity in the fleet and oh yes AJP bombing - which they can do now (so its NOT a new way of causing damage) but you think they shouldn't in 2nd Ed but other - equally powerful races.....should?
Lastly- and Again I am not a Vorlon player - isn't there complaints that they are not that powerful.........?

Id say any complaints that the Volons are 'not that powerful' were based on SFoS Armageddon Vorlons are FAR FAR nastier. As for them being able to jump point bomb currently, well frankly as far as the current rules go I dont think ANY race should be able to do that. As far as 2nd ed goes I could see younger races doing but the Vorlons thinking it simply beneath them when they can just SHOOT the enemies.

 

[Da Boss]

Although they can still can have problems not seeing Stealthed ships, and they only have +3 Initiative and no chance of a Command bonus, the re-roll on set up and who takes first turn (and who fires first) and of course a bit of diversity in the fleet

But your Ok with these reasons for having Vorlon Scouts?

 

[CZuschlag]

Tenacious:

I can hold one (unintentional) olive branch to you from Mongoose's updates -- the restriction on CAF to non-beam systems plus access to CAF under turning could make the fast Dilgar designs --- if they hold --- extremely dangerous.

The base Ochliavita is getting a substantial boost by these rules, provided it is otherwise being left alone.

Losing access to Auto-CAF hurts a lot, though.

 

[Da Boss]

Tenacious:

I can hold one (unintentional) olive branch to you from Mongoose's updates -- the restriction on CAF to non-beam systems plus access to CAF under turning could make the fast Dilgar designs --- if they hold --- extremely dangerous.

The base Ochliavita is getting a substantial boost by these rules, provided it is otherwise being left alone.

Losing access to Auto-CAF hurts a lot, though.

Didn't EP say that they are getting long range missiles as well!

 

[CZuschlag]

That's a likely replacement, if I had to guess, to the Disruption Torpedo. It might end up being a wash.

The toy (in theory) will be making the slow ships useful/cool. That'll take a lot of work; I'll believe that when I see it!

 

[emperorpenguin]

But the 'Dilgar dont get an Armageddon ship' whine is just irritating,

Jump Point Bombs in general: ARE seen on screen and its clearly implied that jump points do damage things they open too close to, but the rule is far too open to abuse, make it next to impossible to do or remove it from the game outright and make it scenario specific.

Boresighted G'Quans (or Omegas for that matter though this ones a bit more debatable): I dont have a big issue with this but I certainly see no reason to not make them forward arc, tweak the range or something or AD if necessary to compensate but dont leave them boresighted. Or at least give them a secondary non boresighted weaker laser!

Forward Arc Whitestar Lasers: This one hasnt come up specifically but I think its worth raising anyway. The whitestar is one of the few ships in show that is shown to ACTUALLY have a boresighted main weapon! Given their function in large groups and inherent manueverability (and the fact that in ACTA 2.0 as I understand it you will be able to concentrate firepower while turning) I dont see any reason we couldnt put this into the game now.

Phew. Ok, computer, end rant

I agree with most of your rant!

The Dilgar need better War ships not an Armageddon ship.
Agree on JP bombs, they just need to be more difficult and they will be...

Unfortunately I doubt we'll see the end of boresighted G'Quans and Omegas or forward arc WS's, much as I hate them

 

[Ripple]

Just had to say on the ISA

They do have access to command, take an allied command ship.

They do have access to initiative sinks, see both of the new ships as well as potentially allies.

We're talking about bore sighting the laser. A one die beam that is about 30% of your firepower (ignoring the Nial). You would be much better off than the Drazi, as you would be more maneuverable, still have considerable front arc firepower, inherent fighter cover and access to affective ships at every level of play.

You do have to go outside the whitestar itself to have all the options, but everyone else has to get away from their iconic ships to play effectively as well. Try the all G'Quan fleet sometime, you'll see. Or the all Vorchan fleet.

On topic...Scouts for the Vorlons! Cause we're yellow and we deserve cheesy jump bomb tactics too! (actually I just can't see them not having one...they don't have one guy who's into knowing stuff?) Game mechanic wise they should have access to the re-roll for placement, re-roll for initial initiative, stealth reduction (yes they have the +1 racial but so do Drahk and they get a scout, shadows as well) and yes redirect on their beams. When the younger races cannot redirect their weapons against the vorlons, with the attendant higher chance to cause damage, I will buy in that the vorlons don't need one. Several of the younger races beams are just as nasty and beams in general are far more common.

Ripple

 

[emperorpenguin]

Didn't EP say that they are getting long range missiles as well!

those are the current torps, just a few more ships have them now

 

[Triggy]

(yes they have the +1 racial but so do Drakh and they get a scout, shadows as well)

Try reading my post earlier in this thread about the Drakh stealth bonus

 

[Drahazar]

JP bombing i just discovered it sence i started playing B5 after I read the rules and found out that if i opened a JP on ships they take damage. It makes sence to me it happened in B5 the series the black star before it met its poor demise did that to EA ships blowing them up and i thought it was great and did it to my only opponent hehehehe it was great I can see how it would get abused but in real life if i was a space captain dude Id have all my ships open hyperspace stuff on the enemy ships it only makes tactical sence to soften them up and cause damage before I come out. Some say its cheese but to me its a tactical menouver that is effective in takeing out ships or causeing damage to give me an edge in the battle. they should find a way to keep it from being abused though i suppose

 

[Triggy]

The interesting thing is, even in 1st edition, JPBs are quite powerful but the more you play and the better your tactics get, the more you find that you can get far more advantage out of a good position rather than bombing the enemy. Sure, someone will do it to you and occasionally get lucky but that's the nature of a dice-based game. I rarely JPB now and it's not because of artificially restricting myself

 

[tneva82]

but in real life if i was a space captain dude Id have all my ships open hyperspace stuff on the enemy ships it only makes tactical sence to soften them up and cause damage before I come out.

Though most of the time it makes even more sense to simply come from good position. That way you'll do lot more damage than the bomb damage.

JP bomb is overrated anyway.

 

[CZuschlag]

I dont' know how you can possibly defend bombs with this. 6 Blue Stars --- 1 Battle's worth -- can, on average, Jump Bomb kill a Drakh Carrier in 1 turn/salvo with absolutely no option for the CV without the courtesy of a reacharound. I completely fail to see how in God's Green Earth you can deploy 6 Patrol ships any better tactical position than through its exploding wreckage the turn afterwards. Heck, you might get a couple of Raiders for extra victory points!

Get real! Do the math yourself. Even the GEG isn't enough to stop it.

6 Dice gives, on average 3 hits, for average of (0+3+3+3+3+3+(critical)) crew lost, or (0+3+3+3+3+3+2.1*3)/6 = 3.55 crew per hit, for 10.65 damage per bomb. GEG 3 turns this into 7.65 per strike, although it won't help against any critical hits -- they pierce GEG. 7.65 * 6 = 46, which, when you factor in crits piercing GEGs and the 50% chance that you lose the GEG when you are crippled, is enough to average a kill.

The tactics is just broken.

B-U-S-T-E-D.

BAN IT.

 

[Ripple]

The infamous position defense.

If you had to come through your own jump point there might even be some validity to this. But you don't. And with more ships available at lower pls with the jump point trait it keeps getting worse as you have more options of where to actually come through later.

Second issues is pretty well covered by the boys above, there really isn't much better use for 6 patrol points then killing an opposing fleets scouts, major vessel or carrier/command ship. Especially as this generally puts you behind the enemy line and with ajp you're attacking something else as you do it.

Ripple

 

[Da Boss]

(yes they have the +1 racial but so do Drakh and they get a scout, shadows as well)

Try reading my post earlier in this thread about the Drakh stealth bonus

yes, but do you agree or disagree with Vorlons having a Scout?

 

[katadder]

I dont' know how you can possibly defend bombs with this. 6 Blue Stars --- 1 Battle's worth -- can, on average, Jump Bomb kill a Drakh Carrier in 1 turn/salvo with absolutely no option for the CV without the courtesy of a reacharound. I completely fail to see how in God's Green Earth you can deploy 6 Patrol ships any better tactical position than through its exploding wreckage the turn afterwards. Heck, you might get a couple of Raiders for extra victory points!

Get real! Do the math yourself. Even the GEG isn't enough to stop it.

6 Dice gives, on average 3 hits, for average of (0+3+3+3+3+3+(critical)) crew lost, or (0+3+3+3+3+3+2.1*3)/6 = 3.55 crew per hit, for 10.65 damage per bomb. GEG 3 turns this into 7.65 per strike, although it won't help against any critical hits -- they pierce GEG. 7.65 * 6 = 46, which, when you factor in crits piercing GEGs and the 50% chance that you lose the GEG when you are crippled, is enough to average a kill.

The tactics is just broken.

B-U-S-T-E-D.

BAN IT.

its not broken, and it requires CQ10 to pull it off, plus a scout. 6 bluestars 2 will pull it off on average getting a whole 4 hits on that tinashi doing 12 damage.
you can house rule this if you like but JP bombs will not be banned.

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 11:35 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The infamous position defense.

If you had to come through your own jump point there might even be some validity to this. But you don't. And with more ships available at lower pls with the jump point trait it keeps getting worse as you have more options of where to actually come through later.

Second issues is pretty well covered by the boys above, there really isn't much better use for 6 patrol points then killing an opposing fleets scouts, major vessel or carrier/command ship. Especially as this generally puts you behind the enemy line and with ajp you're attacking something else as you do it.

I have put about this in another thread and put the idea forward too. whenever a ship in B5 opens a JP it will use it. if this is put in the rules it will stop half your ships JP bombing then coming out another JP. this then gives you the choice - attempt a JP bomb with the CQ10 check and be right in the middle of the enemy, or use your JP for tactical advantage and deploy elsewhere.

 

[Da Boss]

its not broken, and it requires CQ10 to pull it off, plus a scout. 6 bluestars 2 will pull it off on average getting a whole 4 hits on that tinashi doing 12 damage.
you can house rule this if you like but JP bombs will not be banned.

Presume they can still do criticals?

So Vorlons can't do it unless they get a Scout ship?

 

[katadder]

true, but then the vorlons would need a 6 to pull it off also. i would rather have my vorlon ships on the table using their precise beams than JP bombing.

 

[Burger]

It's gone up to CQ 10? Used to be CQ9, last I heard.