Thoughts on Ship Optimization

[ross]

The idea that nothing would be replaced by better quality parts in an interstellar society is absolutely insane.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

The idea that nothing would be replaced by better quality parts in an interstellar society is absolutely insane.

If you are replying to me that is not what I'm saying. I am saying that higher quality parts made at a higher TL WILL be better but can also be fully compatible in that they can be installed on the lower TL ship. Just like 21st century spark plugs can be installed in and used by a stock Model T (1908-1927).

Your TL 9 Free Trader needs a "flux capacitor" and one made at TL 11 can be installed and due to higher quality of raw materials and workmanship would actually make your ship more reliable. Alternately a TL 11 Free Trader scavenges a TL 9 "flux capacitor" from a wrecked Free Trader and it still works as well albeit with a shorter life span and lower reliability. Two such ships made at different TLs could if crashed on the same planet strip parts from the less space worthy ship to make the other work without jerry rigging as the parts are fully compatible.

 

[phavoc]

When making a modern replica of an older design specifically in Traveller you would of course be making sure that the new materials stayed "plug and play" compatible with the older design still in use even if this made the ship less capable than it could otherwise be made.

You air wrench example doesn't seem an issue to me as you could control the air pressure enough to reduce its force to what the older materials could tolerate.

The old Model T for example can use modern spark plugs which are more reliable than those old designs. Same for tires it can use modern bias ply designs that are better performing. Modern batteries as well are better than original in the Model T. All this in spite of the fact that this design hasn't been in common use for decades.

Now in the OTU various designs are supposed to be 1000 or more years old with some units still in service after centuries. This is only practical if the modern components still work in older ships and where components scavenged from older ships work in modern ones. So for MTU lower TL designs or in common usage in some areas and even updated versions are mostly compatible. What changes does TL 14 for example make to the Free Trader? Updated power plant? What else? The more you update the higher the price and the less competitive.

All fair points. I had to go look up the spark plug thing. According to the Model T club there are some issues, but it's possible if you can find the right model plug (thread issues are one thing cited, and others state they just use an adapter for mixed results).

The issue about the air wrench is that, like much of this, possible in theory. Having experienced regular tire people either overtighten or otherwise mess up perfectly good lug nuts on a car over the decades, it does seem just as likely as they'd do what the guys these days do to cars at times.

A modern battery or modern tire IS quite superior to what the Model-T used originally - the question becomes not one of materials but where does one get a Model-T type tire. Turns out they ARE still available, for about the same price as a regular auto tire. Had to go look that one up as well.

The tire example is, I think, an excellent one to use as a parallel. The tires you get for a model-T today are designed to work on a car 100 years old, but are built with modern materials. And they also cost in the modern range. Which makes sense in most ways - even though everything about them is improved, the cost of the tire has kept up with the overall cost of other tires for the time period. My dad had a 56 Chevy, so I went to look up the costs of some nice whitewalls for one. Turns out you can get new whitewalls, but they, too, are priced similar to modern tires as they are made with modern materials in modern factories.

To be fair, an example of something different is glass. When glass was first introduced it was fabulously expensive. Since then it's gotten better and cheaper (though for what they want to charge for windows sometimes... you really have to wonder!).

So if we use the tire example, would the assumption that there could be a significant price discount for things like this be reasonable to expect as the books state? Or would it / should it be far less generous or even not there at all? Clearly we can see that mixing technology from different centuries can work in some instances, it's just that pricing doesn't seem to match it (for the example listed above). What about the glass example? Is that a better or worse comparison?

An interesting question!

 

[Condottiere]

If they maintain universal standards.

Or, just Imperial units.

 

[rinku]

I think it's probably better to go with the ship *specifications* being centuries old. That is, a long, long time ago some Vilani bureau committee, likely after many decades, laid down the parameters for a Scout, for a Free Trader etc. Tonnage, jump rating, staterooms, etc.

The actual ship *designs* may well have been in use for a long time too, but those have more leeway, and might vary from region to region, or shipyard to shipyard. And would keep up with any increase in the common interstellar tech level. Which would not have been TL12 back when TL12 was the highest available tech.

The final product is then affected by the actual shipyard and local TL, and any component choices made by the customer.

 

[Condottiere]

Jump drives have two components that at default, remain the same:

1. Overhead five tonnes

2. Jump capacitors

The core differs by technological level, scale, and performance.

 

[Endie]

If you are replying to me that is not what I'm saying. I am saying that higher quality parts made at a higher TL WILL be better but can also be fully compatible in that they can be installed on the lower TL ship. Just like 21st century spark plugs can be installed in and used by a stock Model T (1908-1927).

Your TL 9 Free Trader needs a "flux capacitor" and one made at TL 11 can be installed and due to higher quality of raw materials and workmanship would actually make your ship more reliable. Alternately a TL 11 Free Trader scavenges a TL 9 "flux capacitor" from a wrecked Free Trader and it still works as well albeit with a shorter life span and lower reliability. Two such ships made at different TLs could if crashed on the same planet strip parts from the less space worthy ship to make the other work without jerry rigging as the parts are fully compatible.

Since @mavikfelna and I both agree with both of you, I suspect that you are arguing past each other.

 

[tytalan]

I disagree.

Consider building something as simple now for a Model T Ford such as brake pads. They would be built with better alloys and other materials but would fit in a Model T with otherwise all original parts. They would likely perform better and last longer.

Now take the original plans for that Model T and build it today. It will be better because quality control will be better as will the alloys used. If made to the original plans any of the parts will be able to be used in an otherwise original Model T.

To illustrate this I was told about an American plant that built transmissions for a Japanese vehicle assembled in the U.S.. They used the same specs/designs as a Japanese plant building the same transmission. The rate of failure from the American plant was far higher than the Japanese plant. They were told to fix the problem or all production would be shifted to Japan. They brought in 3 transmissions and gave them to a QC tech to check all the parts. The results shocked him so much that he assumed his testing equipment was faulty and scheduled it for recalibration, the 2nd and 3rd sets gave the same results. Each of the Japanese parts were not just in tolerance but EXACTLY on the optimum numbers. They build not just to spec but to a degree of uniformity the American thought impossible. As a result the American plant tightened up the specs to a much narrower tolerance than the design called for. They became "good enough" to not lose the contract. To make it absolutely clear all the parts in their transmissions were to spec but they varied from one end of the spec to the other resulting in parts binding or sloppily meshing either of which increased the failure rates in the field.

Now apply this to the TL 9 Free Trader. vs the same built at TL 12 from the same design. The materials will be higher quality, the components more uniform when built at TL 12 and any of the TL 9 parts would fit and work on the TL 12 ship and the same for TL 12 parts on the TL 9 ship. The ships quality improves even though the design stays the same due to quality control and more advanced variants of the raw materials. The TL 12 ship should have better quality and a longer life.

Bad example since retro tech by the rules is for electronics a better example would be trying to replace transistors with vacuum tubes. “Retrotech applies only to computers and electronic devices. Other items, even without additional features, are addressed through gradations and/or superseding higher tech items. ” pg 11 CSC

So while your break pads example might work for the landing gear a Fusion power plant or a Jump drive is a different thing entirely. It would be like trying to replace electronic ignition with a distributor cap. It’s not doable. So you’re comparing apples to oranges.

So you have a Freetrader using retro tech base on TL 12 lands and needs to make repairs on a TL 9 world they are now trying to replace their high end electronics with low end bulkier systems that they have to jury rigged and hope it works. Like I said there are good reasons not to always optimize.

Another point is that running the same design for centuries and getting rid of any bugs is not the same as optimizing for performance, a good example of this was the original VW Bug engine that engine and car was built for over 60 years and it had no bugs but it sure was not optimized in fact one of the reasons it stayed in production in one country or another was the simplicity and low tech of the engine made it both incredibly reliable and easy to repair. Like I said there are often good reasons not to optimize

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

So you have a Freetrader using retro tech base on TL 12 lands and needs to make repairs on a TL 9 world they are now trying to replace their high end electronics with low end bulkier systems that they have to jury rigged and hope it works. Like I said there are good reasons not to always optimize.

Except I'm not assuming the use of retro tech rules. I'm assuming the same design as the TL 9 WITH more advanced quality control and possibly alloys. So the part other than quality is the same design.

The TL 12 hull for the TL 9 Free Trader is the same except the alloy may be more advanced and is closer to the optimum construction. An airlock structure is closer to the middle of the spec as is the airlock door so every thing fits much closer to the optimum. The seal on the door is the optimum dimension and fits any airlock door of that spec and is likely of a more durable material BUT it can still be used in the TL 9 design and the TL 9 seal still fits the higher TL airlock.

Consider current microchips. The 6502 chip from the 1970s is still made. 100s of millions per year. They are modified designs but the core is still compatible with that used in the Apple II back in the 1970s. Made with today's TL the yields are far higher, the power can be far lower and durability much greater. Some at least seem to be packaged to allow them to replace failed chips in old machines. This is a good illustration of what I mean about using the original design but manufactured at the higher TL. It CAN plug right in and perform exactly like the original. They don't need to add all the possible bells and whistles but can and do make directly compatible units. The same applies to that TL 9 Free Trader made at higher TL's. The ship may be higher quality and better performing but the parts are interchangeable with the TL 9 design.

 

[mavikfelna]

Except I'm not assuming the use of retro tech rules. I'm assuming the same design as the TL 9 WITH more advanced quality control and possibly alloys. So the part other than quality is the same design.

The TL 12 hull for the TL 9 Free Trader is the same except the alloy may be more advanced and is closer to the optimum construction. An airlock structure is closer to the middle of the spec as is the airlock door so every thing fits much closer to the optimum. The seal on the door is the optimum dimension and fits any airlock door of that spec and is likely of a more durable material BUT it can still be used in the TL 9 design and the TL 9 seal still fits the higher TL airlock.

Consider current microchips. The 6502 chip from the 1970s is still made. 100s of millions per year. They are modified designs but the core is still compatible with that used in the Apple II back in the 1970s. Made with today's TL the yields are far higher, the power can be far lower and durability much greater. Some at least seem to be packaged to allow them to replace failed chips in old machines. This is a good illustration of what I mean about using the original design but manufactured at the higher TL. It CAN plug right in and perform exactly like the original. They don't need to add all the possible bells and whistles but can and do make directly compatible units. The same applies to that TL 9 Free Trader made at higher TL's. The ship may be higher quality and better performing but the parts are interchangeable with the TL 9 design.

This is how I envision the optimization happening over the centuries. That and when a bad or poor performing element of the design is found, it is reworked in such a way as to be easy to integrate in the existing designs if possible. If it's not possible, a new, updated design is issued and design switches to the new model, but a closest possible patch to the old design may be issued as well, since there are still existing units that will benefit from the update. But new builds would be using the updated design.

 

[tytalan]

Except I'm not assuming the use of retro tech rules. I'm assuming the same design as the TL 9 WITH more advanced quality control and possibly alloys. So the part other than quality is the same design.

The TL 12 hull for the TL 9 Free Trader is the same except the alloy may be more advanced and is closer to the optimum construction. An airlock structure is closer to the middle of the spec as is the airlock door so every thing fits much closer to the optimum. The seal on the door is the optimum dimension and fits any airlock door of that spec and is likely of a more durable material BUT it can still be used in the TL 9 design and the TL 9 seal still fits the higher TL airlock.

Consider current microchips. The 6502 chip from the 1970s is still made. 100s of millions per year. They are modified designs but the core is still compatible with that used in the Apple II back in the 1970s. Made with today's TL the yields are far higher, the power can be far lower and durability much greater. Some at least seem to be packaged to allow them to replace failed chips in old machines. This is a good illustration of what I mean about using the original design but manufactured at the higher TL. It CAN plug right in and perform exactly like the original. They don't need to add all the possible bells and whistles but can and do make directly compatible units. The same applies to that TL 9 Free Trader made at higher TL's. The ship may be higher quality and better performing but the parts are interchangeable with the TL 9 design.

That’s not optimization that improved quality control. Those micro chip use the same materials as the original just with better quality control and that doesn’t anywhere near rise to the difference between tech levels that just early TL 8 vs Mid to Late TL 8. Changing the TL is significantly more than just improving the quality control. In you case it’s still a TL 9 Freetrader you haven’t improved anything. Optimization is defined as “ the process of making something as good or effective as possible: The airline's scheduling optimization program ensures that it serves the maximum number of .” If your optimization at a higher TL than your changing things to that TL. All you’re talking about is optimization within its existing TL not upgrading its TL. I don’t think you’re understanding the difference a TL increase does to systems. A change in TL is something like changing from Vacuum Tubes to Transistors it’s a significant change not just an improvement in quality control.

What you’re describing is literally improvements in existing manufacturing based on optimization of existing methods and systems. You are saying that the cars built in the 1970 are a couple of TLs lower than the same versions of those cars built today and that’s just not true. To increase the TL of a ship you are significantly changing something rather it’s upgrading to a fusion plant 12 or reducing the jump fuel needed anything less than this type of change is not changing the TL of the ship. A TL 9 Freetrader is still a TL 9 Freetrader even if it built in a TL 15 ship yard it only increases in TL if it actually uses more advanced systems and that far more than better quality control. “ This is the maximum Tech Level available for any given component you add and also serves as the overall Tech Level of the ship itself.” HG 2022 pg 8. The TL of a Ship refers to the TL of the components in the ship not the Quality Control, better specs and different materials (other than things like armor) do not determine the TL of the ship. If the ship is built on TL 9 components than its TL 9, both the Beowulf and Hero class traders use Fusion Plant 12s which is why they are TL 12 this is also why my versions use TL 8 Fusion Plants.

Like I said sometimes a lower TL is better. A Beowulf base on TL 9 components can be repaired from local resources on a TL 9 world. A TL 12 Beowulf can not.

The type of optimization you’re talking about is not retro tech or increasing the TL of the ship it’s just improvements in manufacturing that happens over the life of a product.

 

[phavoc]

I think this illustrates just how hard it is to gamify this sort of thing. These are all good and valid points being made.

We know, that in some cases, thing of today aren't fundamentally different, but other things are. I rebuilt my carburetor on my first car in the 80s. My current one has fuel injection and I cannot install a carburetor on my current one. My first was built in 78 and the current one in 2017. That's the blink of an eye in Traveller terms, but it's an example of how things can change systemically. Both my cars drove, the tires were similar, the fuel basically the same. However the subtle differences mean that certain things are not interchangeable without a very significant modification of the system.

There was an old movie called Flight of the Phoenix (the original 1965 version). There the crew take the parts of the plane and make an aborted version that still flies. It's not one that would (probably) be built on its own, but they could make it work with what they had. Some of these discussions have a parallel to that same thing. It's possible, but probably not plausible or probable. But dire circumstances mean difficult choices.

 

[tytalan]

Also, why isn’t every military ship radiation and heat shielded?

Heat shielding does nothing for combat I think your think reflective

I’m not sure why MDrives and JDrives need to be on external bulkheads. Let’s accept that, but why should any military spacecraft have less than M6? It seems that any slower craft would just be almost immediately destroyed by any faster ships.

It’s a trade off like in the real world more armor often means less space for drives, tech level also affects this not only in the tonnage that the armor takes but also other systems

IMTU military ships should have oversized power plants and be able to take serious hits without falling from the sky.
Although i believe this is especially true of small craft, it’s also true for large ships as well.

There literally an option for emergency power systems which covered this. Also while most ship have power to run both jump drive and maneuver at the same time the power for the jump drives acts as a power reserve for combat

The crew rules are increasingly anachronistic, and cross training on smaller ships should address may of these 'necessary' positions. As an example, I think it is pretty likely that most Scout couriers would only have a single crewman and a lot of automation.

Ships tend to run more crew as redundancy it’s a common practice comparing star ships to airliners is a faulty comparison since an airliner is repaired and maintained on the ground not in flight. I will say that there is a big issue with military craft because most of the crew would be in barracks not staterooms. But military ships often run even more personal redundancy because of combat and damage.

Robots we already talked about in the crew section. I believe the economics would make a large part of the crew robotic, but there can be a cultural more. Anyway, yeah, a lot is problematic. Designs always optimize and form always follows function.

I like this quote from ACS 1 “ Lacking biases that limit the use of mobile robots in the Imperium, it is not surprising that Zhodani make a greater use of them.” The key part here is the fact that there is a strong cultural biases against mobile robots in the imperium. While Star Wars style robots everywhere might make sense to you and your Traveller universe it’s not really a thing in Classic Charted Space. But you do you.

There are definitely somethings I agree with though