Vehicle costs are still strange
- Thread starter DFW
- Start date
alex_greene
Guest
Travellers incorporate the cost of the Air/Raft into the overall costs of their ships, and pay off the Air/Rafts and other aux vehicles as part of the monthly payments.
Everybody else pays for their Air/Rafts the same way anybody else pays for them: they go to the bank, get a loan and pay off the loan in monthly instalments.
Everybody else pays for their Air/Rafts the same way anybody else pays for them: they go to the bank, get a loan and pay off the loan in monthly instalments.
far-trader
Mongoose
I agree DFW, and rationalize it as the "standard" Air/Raft as presented is the military version. It's got hardened systems, fail safes, etc. up the wahoo. So it costs 10x or more than the same more basic but equally functional civilian model.
So the military version is pretty ubiquitous, just because of the size of the Imperial forces and their use therein.
Likewise the civilian versions are equally ubiquitous in their role and environments (short trips in civilized areas).
Of course, for long trips, use in remote locations where there's no service, hostile environments, or when being shot up, that civilian model is not quite the bargain it seemed...
Mil-spec model - Cr600,000 - Expensive: Durable, adaptable, backup systems, great sensors!
Civ-spec model - Cr60,000 - Cheap: Limited environment range, no backup systems, what sensors?
So the military version is pretty ubiquitous, just because of the size of the Imperial forces and their use therein.
Likewise the civilian versions are equally ubiquitous in their role and environments (short trips in civilized areas).
Of course, for long trips, use in remote locations where there's no service, hostile environments, or when being shot up, that civilian model is not quite the bargain it seemed...
Mil-spec model - Cr600,000 - Expensive: Durable, adaptable, backup systems, great sensors!
Civ-spec model - Cr60,000 - Cheap: Limited environment range, no backup systems, what sensors?
far-trader
Mongoose
DFW said:
You need to more compare the Air/Raft to a light plane than a car though. And a light plane can run as much as a house. And light planes are pretty ubiquitous.
Fartrader said, "Civ-spec model: Limited environment range, no backup systems, cheap."
Not per the civilian vehicle design rules. The air raft you see on a scout is the same design as the civilian model. No back up, not heavy duty. I'm referring to the rules as written, not House rule fluff some may or, may not use.
Not per the civilian vehicle design rules. The air raft you see on a scout is the same design as the civilian model. No back up, not heavy duty. I'm referring to the rules as written, not House rule fluff some may or, may not use.
far-trader
Mongoose
Haven't seen the design rules so I can't speak to that. Except to say that it sounds wrongish if you can't design a civilian model cheaper than a military model. Like options were left out, or guidelines suggesting differences.
Civilian model doesn't need weeks of endurance, armour, radar, orbital commo, etc. etc. All of which I'd presume standard for a military model. Civilian models should be a factor or more cheaper than military models of the same basic performance.
As for House rule fluff, not really, it's from previous rules and logic. As for it not being spelled out in the RAW, well that's when you have to step in with judgment calls and House rule it
Civilian model doesn't need weeks of endurance, armour, radar, orbital commo, etc. etc. All of which I'd presume standard for a military model. Civilian models should be a factor or more cheaper than military models of the same basic performance.
As for House rule fluff, not really, it's from previous rules and logic. As for it not being spelled out in the RAW, well that's when you have to step in with judgment calls and House rule it
DFW said:
The original CT air/raft was 600,000.
Like has been said, you need to compare the air/raft to a light airplane, not a car. It is made to reach orbit, dock with a ship, not just drop Nancy off at school on the way to the mall. In the 3rd Imperium an air/raft is more like a Cesna or even a commerical grade truck in my opinion. Much more expensive then your Ford or Chevy sedan.
There are grav cars as cheap as 100,000 in Supplement 5. Quote, "Grav cars are the vehicle of choice on most worlds with grav technology". So, more common then the air/raft on high TL worlds. The air/raft is a step above a civilian's craft being a commercial-grade grav vehicle used in the space industry. Ubiquitos? Sure, amongst merchants and the navy.
Vile
Banded Mongoose
I think the problem is with the supposed ubiquity (is that a word?) of air/rafts versus the fact that they really are more like space shuttles in capability. I like the idea of my future cities filled with flying cars like Fifth Element, but how often does the average citizen need to take their jalopy into orbit?
This is definitely where the house rule needs to come in and create a (low) flying car as opposed to an orbital insertion car.
This is definitely where the house rule needs to come in and create a (low) flying car as opposed to an orbital insertion car.
Vile said:
But then you are changing the base setting - gravity drives can get you to orbit. If you want to change gravity changes in YTU, then by all means it's yours. Simply add a cheap,'Low Altitude Gravity Drive' with a flight ceiling and perhaps 1/3 the price.
The gravity drives of the Traveller setting have always been able to get you to and from orbit. That doesn't mean every gravity car was intended for such duty. Many light aircraft made today could make Trans-atlantic journey's, but that doesn't mean they were intended to do so.
Supplement 5 has an air/raft (completely intended to go to orbit, it needs to as part of many small starcraft's equipment) and a few cheaper "grav cars". The cheaper grav cars have grav drives, so they can get to orbit, but it doesn't appear to be their intention. These cars appear to be closer to the 5th Element speeders you desire, not the air/raft.
Possible Solution:
You don't necessarily need a house rule with Supplement 5 to create cheaper flying cars that aren't going to get you (alive) to orbit. Design some flying cars using lift drives combined with a jet. The lift allows the car to hover in place while the jet gives it speed. This will leave you with less room in your flying car, but it will also make it much cheaper. Leave out expensive life support and your flying car can't go into orbit (well it conceivably could, but it would kill the driver and passengers). Just a guestimate, but you could make a small 4m3 flying car for around 40,000. Such "lift jet cars" could solve everyone's problems (it's cheap and not intended for orbit).
Designed a couple "Jet Cars" that use both Lifters and Jets using the rules from Supplement 5 and made them into a PDF if anyone cares to use them (the pictures aren't mine, found via Google images so don't get me in trouble). One is a 2-seater, the other is a 4-seater along the size of an air/raft. The smaller one came out at 30k the larger at 56k credits. Both outperform the air/raft, are only TL 8, can hover, are much cheaper, and are not intended to fly you into orbit (basic sensors and no life support).
Two page PDF here.
Two page PDF here.
far-trader
Mongoose
Sturn said:
That's what I'm talking about!
Sweet, and many thanks Sturn
Sturn said:
Nice work.
Incidentally, this is just the sort of thing we like to see submitted to S&P, and we can often give a hand with artwork!
Fedmahn Kassad
Mongoose
Also remember that the passengers of the Air/Raft must have Vacc suits on when they reach orbit.
Your average pedestrian car is not going to have a pressure sealesd hull, nor be desinged to work in the harsh hot/cold environment of low orbit. I am guessing that (to save on the cost) most "civvie" grav vehicles are made of components that would fail or be destroyed in vacuum.
Your average pedestrian car is not going to have a pressure sealesd hull, nor be desinged to work in the harsh hot/cold environment of low orbit. I am guessing that (to save on the cost) most "civvie" grav vehicles are made of components that would fail or be destroyed in vacuum.
iainjcoleman
Banded Mongoose
Sturn said:
Those are excellent.
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
Sturn said:
VERY COOL!
Cood Job Sturn!
Nice artwork too! Very Retro-Tech looking.
Sturn said:
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
Thanks for the compliments, but I must stress the artwork is not mine, only the design.
I added these credits to the pics in the PDF-
Light Jet Car - A concept Audi hover car by Kazim Doku - kazimdoku.com
Medium Jet Car - Colin Smith - photoshopcafe.com
A few other considerations...
Air/Rafts have a top speed of 400kph, so definitely overperform as far as urban traffic is concerned. Within a TL12 plus city, you are probably going to have highly regulated, moderate speed (say about 100kph) air traffic. Private ownership may not be a major issue for most people, as robot aircabs and busses would be a better deal.
However, in a less urban situation private ownership would be more common.
Up until about TL12 grav vehicles are not the common form of transport. Since the standard Air/Raft is a TL8 product, you'll likely find that it's cheaper at higher techs *or* that inflation means that a TL12 society does not consider Cr275,000 a steep price for personal transport. This isn't very well addressed in Traveller, but I recall a looong time ago a JTAS article on the relative value of a credit across different planets, using TL and Starport as a basis.
Another thought is durability. Standard Traveller equipment is usually built to last. Starships will typically operate for up to a century, for example. I would imagine that commercial and fashion considerations on a high-tech world would encourage designs intended to last perhaps 5-10 years before being scrapped.
Finally, the basic book does give us two cheaper grav vehicles in the Grav Belt and Grav Floater (which appears to be a sort of Grav Segway, and only costs Cr500!). It wouldn't be hard to extrapolate the Grav Floater into a multiseat version at approximately Cr500 per seat. In CV terms, if you reduce the volume of the grav transmission and powerplant (let's say to 1/4 of the default), you can do a pretty cheap pure grav design.
Air/Rafts have a top speed of 400kph, so definitely overperform as far as urban traffic is concerned. Within a TL12 plus city, you are probably going to have highly regulated, moderate speed (say about 100kph) air traffic. Private ownership may not be a major issue for most people, as robot aircabs and busses would be a better deal.
However, in a less urban situation private ownership would be more common.
Up until about TL12 grav vehicles are not the common form of transport. Since the standard Air/Raft is a TL8 product, you'll likely find that it's cheaper at higher techs *or* that inflation means that a TL12 society does not consider Cr275,000 a steep price for personal transport. This isn't very well addressed in Traveller, but I recall a looong time ago a JTAS article on the relative value of a credit across different planets, using TL and Starport as a basis.
Another thought is durability. Standard Traveller equipment is usually built to last. Starships will typically operate for up to a century, for example. I would imagine that commercial and fashion considerations on a high-tech world would encourage designs intended to last perhaps 5-10 years before being scrapped.
Finally, the basic book does give us two cheaper grav vehicles in the Grav Belt and Grav Floater (which appears to be a sort of Grav Segway, and only costs Cr500!). It wouldn't be hard to extrapolate the Grav Floater into a multiseat version at approximately Cr500 per seat. In CV terms, if you reduce the volume of the grav transmission and powerplant (let's say to 1/4 of the default), you can do a pretty cheap pure grav design.
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